Could Lego "partially" melt if not used for a very long time?

[ks6349]

A friend of mine visited my home toy warehouse today and saw that I have a lot of unopened Lego sets, he isn't Lego fans and has never played Lego but he is quite educated, he said chances are Lego could partially melt or break down because of environmental challenges if they are put away for long time, say decades,  is it possible???? My unopened sets are always put in a wardrobe where there isn't any air conditioning inside, temperature outdoor of my country could reach 30-35 °C. I have no idea about indoor temperature because I don't have a thermometer, but very very hot I can feel, Is what he said possible??  

Edited May 19, 2021 by ks6349

[Toastie]

1 hour ago, ks6349 said:

but very very hot I can feel

Now if I were you, I certainly would get a (electronic) thermometer. With min/max measurement capability. These a dirt cheap, you don't need any high accuracy at all.

Could it happen? Sure. But it all depends. First, you should not be concerned with the melting temp of ABS, that is not a good number for polymers. The heat distortion temperature is more of concern (c.f. for example this link: https://polymerdatabase.com/polymer physics/HeatDistortion.html)

From that website: "The heat distortion temperature (HDT) - also known as the deflection temperature under load (DTUL) or heat deflection temperature - is an important property of polymers. It gives an indication at what temperature materials start to "soften" when exposed to a fixed load at elevated temperatures."

Your bricks may not be under external load (also called stress), when stored as loose parts (in contrast to a built model; there will be stress), but as they are really precision pieces; minimal dimensional changes will affect clutch power and the like. I am not sure, how much >internal< stress they still have; injection molding experts here should know better. But there all these reinforcing elements in almost every brick/piece here and there.

It also depends on the actual monomer formulation to make the ABS polymer, which may slightly vary. Plain vanilla ABS has an HDT of 80°C. I'd say assume a significantly lower HDT when storing them for >decades<. They certainly don't partly melt, they slightly deform. Which is as bad as melting, as there is hardly any way to reshape them.

Fun story: My mother once upon a time (must have been around 1970) got hold of a bucket of dirty LEGO bricks. So what did she do? Put them into a big saucepan add water, soap, fire up the gas and boiled them for half an hour. Success rate of very badly deforming the pieces: 100%. Can you imagine how that hurt? First: Cheers and the feel of being the luckiest person on planet Earth - and then Chemistry hits hard. Maybe this was the reason I became a chemist, who knows

So be indeed careful. Get that thermometer and take (many) measurements in several storage places. In some non-ventilated places, it can get hot, you would not believe. As you said: You cann feel it ...

Best and good luck,
Thorsten

 

[Stuartn]

I live in rural Australia where temperatures during a heatwave a couple of years ago exceeded 47 degrees celsius and the air conditioner wasn't working all that well (that was pleasant), but the Lego, some of which was quite old survived (though some old baseplate pieces seem more warped now then when I used them years ago in a more temperate area). But I agree, a thermometer might be a good investment, and I am not sure how humidity would effect bricks?

Edited May 19, 2021 by Stuartn

[AmperZand]

I have some builds that have been assembled for almost 30 years and they are fine.

[Johnny1360]

Growing up in the Arizona desert, left some LEGO in the car for a couple of days on the dash, they became quite unusable afterwards, extreme warping. Now that was summer heat in a closed car in direct sunlight, so it does happen but we are talking 120 degrees+ Fahrenheit, sorry too lazy to convert it. Suffice it to say though a human would die under similar conditions. 

Edited May 20, 2021 by Johnny1360
That was outside air temperature too, so inside the car it was obviously much much hotter

[dr_spock]

I have some LEGO in the car as a sunglasses holder on the dash.  They seem to be holding up ok in the sun.  It is not Arizona hot up here but it can get hot enough to deform 3D printed PLA plastic under load inside the car.  ABS has a higher glass transition temperature than PLA. 

[ks6349]

15 hours ago, Toastie said:

Now if I were you, I certainly would get a (electronic) thermometer. With min/max measurement capability. These a dirt cheap, you don't need any high accuracy at all.

Could it happen? Sure. But it all depends. First, you should not be concerned with the melting temp of ABS, that is not a good number for polymers. The heat distortion temperature is more of concern (c.f. for example this link: https://polymerdatabase.com/polymer physics/HeatDistortion.html)

From that website: "The heat distortion temperature (HDT) - also known as the deflection temperature under load (DTUL) or heat deflection temperature - is an important property of polymers. It gives an indication at what temperature materials start to "soften" when exposed to a fixed load at elevated temperatures."

Your bricks may not be under external load (also called stress), when stored as loose parts (in contrast to a built model; there will be stress), but as they are really precision pieces; minimal dimensional changes will affect clutch power and the like. I am not sure, how much >internal< stress they still have; injection molding experts here should know better. But there all these reinforcing elements in almost every brick/piece here and there.

It also depends on the actual monomer formulation to make the ABS polymer, which may slightly vary. Plain vanilla ABS has an HDT of 80°C. I'd say assume a significantly lower HDT when storing them for >decades<. They certainly don't partly melt, they slightly deform. Which is as bad as melting, as there is hardly any way to reshape them.

Fun story: My mother once upon a time (must have been around 1970) got hold of a bucket of dirty LEGO bricks. So what did she do? Put them into a big saucepan add water, soap, fire up the gas and boiled them for half an hour. Success rate of very badly deforming the pieces: 100%. Can you imagine how that hurt? First: Cheers and the feel of being the luckiest person on planet Earth - and then Chemistry hits hard. Maybe this was the reason I became a chemist, who knows

So be indeed careful. Get that thermometer and take (many) measurements in several storage places. In some non-ventilated places, it can get hot, you would not believe. As you said: You cann feel it ...

Best and good luck,
Thorsten

 

OK, but what is the temperature I have to be concerned? after getting a theromometer

 

I do not understand your chemistry's explaination...

[Toastie]

9 hours ago, Johnny1360 said:

Suffice it to say though a human would die under similar conditions.

Hee hee - ABS is simply superior to humans. It also doesn't complain about the weather all the time.

The main points of @ks6349 were: ((for decades) = true) AND ((very very hot) == true) 

The former is tough - needs a longtime experiment - I most certainly will not survive. The latter is easily answered by measuring the temperature, as very, very hot is even worse than °Fahrenheit

So I'd still say it depends. Is in indoors and in your room? That temperature would do no harm to ABS as it is superior to humans and you would suffer so much in there - maybe even die. But: Do you store your LEGOs maybe also somewhere else? In a building exposed to sunlight (storage room etc?)

I'd say you'll be good below 60°C. Or 50? Due to the decades?

Moisture/Humidity should not affect ABS at all.

Best
Thorsten

[ks6349]

4 hours ago, Toastie said:

Hee hee - ABS is simply superior to humans. It also doesn't complain about the weather all the time.

The main points of @ks6349 were: ((for decades) = true) AND ((very very hot) == true) 

The former is tough - needs a longtime experiment - I most certainly will not survive. The latter is easily answered by measuring the temperature, as very, very hot is even worse than °Fahrenheit

So I'd still say it depends. Is in indoors and in your room? That temperature would do no harm to ABS as it is superior to humans and you would suffer so much in there - maybe even die. But: Do you store your LEGOs maybe also somewhere else? In a building exposed to sunlight (storage room etc?)

I'd say you'll be good below 60°C. Or 50? Due to the decades?

Moisture/Humidity should not affect ABS at all.

Best
Thorsten

Outdoor temperature here in the summer could reach 37°C, and the average temperature is 35°C in summer. As I said, all unopened sets are stored in my wardrobe, it's nothing special but a wardrobe for clothes and since I have more wardrobes than I need so some of them are used for Lego. That's it. OK, I've got a stick of cheap one dollar thermometer now, what's next? 

Yes my Lego sets will probably be put away for decades, not a few years, I have a bad habit, keeping Lego is my fetish, I like keep it more than to play it. People may not understand, everyone has their stories, when I was a kid I felt so excited in toy shop when I saw a lot of Lego on the shelf but most of the time I left with nothing, I now still feel so good by just grabbing up and looking at the sets

 

 

[Toastie]

4 hours ago, ks6349 said:

People may not understand, everyone has their stories, when I was a kid I felt so excited in toy shop when I saw a lot of Lego on the shelf but most of the time I left with nothing, I now still feel so good by just grabbing up and looking at the sets

And this is a wonderful story, really. I love it. And I can really very much see that!

Now, within a wardrobe, the temperature will never ever reach any adverse levels. Never ever. Put that thermometer in there, and take measurements. The results will tell you: No problem at all!!!

I was concerned that you may have access to some sort of storage "room", which in turn may have windows etc. heating up some areas to really high temperatures.

But in your room, in a wardrobe? Never ever. You are on the absolute safe side here.

As I said: Take the measurements, put your thermometer in there and post the results in this very thread. We'll have a look. It will tell you: Decades of storage are no problem. But: Proof (measurements) are better than claims. Always.

Thank you very much for sharing your experience with LEGO. I would never call that a "fetish", but much more so love and/or passion.

All the best
Thorsten

[BubbaFit45531]

I have at least a few pieces and a tire that haven't be touched in many many years on top shelf of closet inside plastic tub that have some slight melted indentation. I have another plastic tub on bottom shelf with a bunch of Mixel balljoints that became way too loose to use without risking breaking.

I also have a recently ordered 6x12 white plate that I noticed today isn't straight but slightly curved and it feels a bit soft and flexible. I don't recall my store bought Pick-A-Brick green 6x12 plates like that.

[eldiano]

My only problem with lego is humidity, the clear lego pieces have turn to ABS Yellow out.  Easy fix but time consuming to say the least

[dr_spock]

14 hours ago, BubbaFit45531 said:

I have at least a few pieces and a tire that haven't be touched in many many years on top shelf of closet inside plastic tub that have some slight melted indentation.

I have similiar deformation with tires on baseplate of my 1980s fire station set.  It sat on a shelf for years at a time and only moved when I changed residences.

[VBBN]

5 hours ago, dr_spock said:

I have similiar deformation with tires on baseplate of my 1980s fire station set.  It sat on a shelf for years at a time and only moved when I changed residences.

 

Yeah, rubber on plastic is definitely where issues can arise, depending on the chemical makeup of the rubber. I've seen other products like Transformers suffer a similar issue, where the rubber seemingly melts through the plastic, and in some cases happens after a short time frame, even only a year. 

[Toastie]

35 minutes ago, VBBN said:

Yeah, rubber on plastic is definitely where issues can arise

Absolutely. "Rubber" is such an undefined polymer, it almost hurts. They can choose whatever they want; rubberrish behavior and properties (soft, grip, whatnot) translate to: Not good for decades of conservation.

My (hundreds) of rubber tires (as I don't need all the tires, but the parts - I am more into trains and non-car fun ) are surely well separated from all my other ABS pieces. Some rubber tires (particularly the glossy ones) seem to develop a liquid like behavior on the surface. The storage place is not humid, nor hot. The rubber polymers simply degrade over time. Some faster, some apparently much slower. Which means the former are environmentally friendly ;)

Upon rubber degradation, smaller molecules, which seem to have the property to partly dissolve ABS, evolve. Well, you can dissolve ABS quantitatively in acetone and other "almost" house-hold chemicals. No surprise here, I guess, when ABS is in contact with "rubber".

All the best
Thorsten

 

[Jack Sassy]

Didn't Lego change brick formula in late 2000s? I think that newer bricks could be prevented from melting, then again not that many years have passed since 2010.

[Toastie]

15 minutes ago, Jack Sassy said:

I think that newer bricks could be prevented from melting

ABS does not provide that many degrees of freedom in the monomer formulation. "They" (not TLG, they simply melt ABS in their moulding machines, but the chemical polymer power players) may have changed the formulation, but that a) depends a lot on global demand and thus raw ABS supplies (other companies need orders of magnitude more raw ABS material) and b) I don't believe TLG focuses that much on melting issues but rather on clutch power, smooth edges, and - well - cost optimization.

Best
Thorsten

[eldiano]

In my experience of collecting action figures especially Japanese die cast and regular figures from the 1980’s ABS has weakened colossally, for example a vintage figure from 1988 will be sturdier and last longer than the ones produced today, the biggest problem with action figures is joint breaking, they remade the figures using the same mold and the knees broke and warped easier than the old ones in less than a month.  Nothing lasts forever but it’s been known Lego to have higher quality ABS than most.  

Something changed with regulations that made them change the ABS compound to last less, I’m guessing with the whole plastic environmental concerns but who knows. I just know in my experience heck even with NECA figures I can’t tell you how many pegs break just changing hands.  Hence why I’m focused on LEGO the only toys that not only triple in value but also last longer than your regular usual toys.  

Some action figures are better off just being statues because broken pegs, joints and wrist pegs make them super fragile more than anything.

Edited May 22, 2021 by eldiano

[Aanchir]

Parts can definitely soften or warp if they're subjected to hot temperatures (like, say, a non-air-conditioned attic or a hot car) for prolonged lengths of time (months/years)

It likely wouldn't be as big an issue for unopened sets as for opened or assembled ones, since they won't have a lot of weight or pressure on the individual parts that would cause them to deform (unlike, say, an assembled set sitting at the bottom of a large toy chest with lots of other toys piled on top of it).

I don't have enough expertise to know if the temperatures you mention are likely to be a problem. But it is definitely a risk worth being aware of!

[ks6349]

On 5/21/2021 at 6:16 AM, Toastie said:

And this is a wonderful story, really. I love it. And I can really very much see that!

Now, within a wardrobe, the temperature will never ever reach any adverse levels. Never ever. Put that thermometer in there, and take measurements. The results will tell you: No problem at all!!!

I was concerned that you may have access to some sort of storage "room", which in turn may have windows etc. heating up some areas to really high temperatures.

But in your room, in a wardrobe? Never ever. You are on the absolute safe side here.

As I said: Take the measurements, put your thermometer in there and post the results in this very thread. We'll have a look. It will tell you: Decades of storage are no problem. But: Proof (measurements) are better than claims. Always.

Thank you very much for sharing your experience with LEGO. I would never call that a "fetish", but much more so love and/or passion.

All the best
Thorsten

It's hard for me to give you any measurement result now, because it's now summer, sometimes air-conditioning in the room is turned on, but for some days when i am away the room is absolutely without turning on the air-conditioner. There could be a lot of fluctuations. It's hard for me to tell you the measure result right now

But, what is the range of "Safe" temperature? 

Edited May 22, 2021 by ks6349

[Jack Sassy]

12 hours ago, Toastie said:

ABS does not provide that many degrees of freedom in the monomer formulation. "They" (not TLG, they simply melt ABS in their moulding machines, but the chemical polymer power players) may have changed the formulation, but that a) depends a lot on global demand and thus raw ABS supplies (other companies need orders of magnitude more raw ABS material) and b) I don't believe TLG focuses that much on melting issues but rather on clutch power, smooth edges, and - well - cost optimization.

Best
Thorsten

Fair points. I'm not much of a chemist meself. I don't think we should worry about it melting when staying in one place for a long time. As long as Lego is not exposed to sunlight, all is good for a certain amount of time (but we already discussed how all good things come to an end in another topic Toastie, so there isn't much that can be said anymore).  

[ZorixPL]

I have a questions.

I reflect  - The LEGO a original boxed have any air in polybag ??

if not, The LEGO can't melt >>  not air in polybag - not contact with part a LEGO in

this is good affirm ??

Edited June 25, 2022 by ZorixPL

[Peppermint_M]

The bags do have air in them. They are not sealed without air, though most of the bags don't have holes, so there is no flow of air. 

Rubber tyres might be at risk, but bricks are less so without light.

[LegendaryArticuno]

The opposite of melting happens with Lego, instead they dry out and become very brittle, eventually crumbling after enough decades.

[koalayummies]

6 hours ago, LegendaryArticuno said:

The opposite of melting happens with Lego, instead they dry out and become very brittle, eventually crumbling after enough decades.

This is why you should always apply moisturizer to your bricks. Sure it makes separating pieces nearly impossible because of how slippery they become, but dang they're so silky and smooth afterwards.