Heroica: Glory Amongst The Stars - Rules & FAQ

[Waterbrick Down]

45 minutes ago, Kintobor said:

I think since the action's already been made, it goes through, but that's just me. An attack isn't cancelled if you go down, and neither is a spell. Let's keep things simple.

I'm not sure in which scenario this would apply, you can't make an Attack or Spell action if you're already Unstable and holding an Attack/Spell action for a subsequent round isn't really a thing yet.

39 minutes ago, Duvors said:

I personally think this goes well over the line between 'preventing cheese' and 'punishing the player for things they have no control over'. In all honesty I think you're being exceedingly overzealous about this, I feel it's better to let the rules stabilize so people can actually learn them instead of whipping ourselves into a paranoid frenzy of rule-bloating in the futile pursuit of a perfectly balanced system. Anyway, the effectiveness of rallying and defending is heavily contingent on the players rolling well to begin with (see, this round).

I'm looking at it from a Mission Master perspective. While the system is certainly easier to run, I'd rather avoid adding complexity by requiring Mission Masters to go back and look at what happened half a dozen rounds ago to see if it applies to the current round. My idea would be to limit the bonuses of Rally/Defend to end if a player takes another Standard Action, I hardly see how that is punishing players. I get your point about keeping the rules stable, I just don't know how many folks are really dependent upon the multi-round buff strategy... yet.

[Kintobor]

Sorry, I misunderstood your initial point.

[Duvors]

59 minutes ago, Waterbrick Down said:

I'm looking at it from a Mission Master perspective. While the system is certainly easier to run, I'd rather avoid adding complexity by requiring Mission Masters to go back and look at what happened half a dozen rounds ago to see if it applies to the current round.

So do you also intend to alter spells to work this way? Because I can't think of at least two that work similarly to Defend/Rally, as well as a bunch with durations that the MM has to keep track of. And it's not 'adding complexity' because it already works that way, it's the baseline complexity you're objecting to.

1 hour ago, Waterbrick Down said:

My idea would be to limit the bonuses of Rally/Defend to end if a player takes another Standard Action, I hardly see how that is punishing players.

I was referring to what you said in the post I actually quoted, i.e.; the effect of a rally/defend being lost if the player who took the action goes down, not to whatever this idea is. You never mentioned this specific idea until just now, so I can't possibly have been objecting to it previously.

1 hour ago, Waterbrick Down said:

I get your point about keeping the rules stable, I just don't know how many folks are really dependent upon the multi-round buff strategy... yet.

There's more to this than some speculation-in-a-vacuum potential rules manipulation. I'm genuinely worried about the possibility of a party being obliged to take this strategy because the MM wildly overtuned a specific enemy and they can't defeat it otherwise. Referring back to the gator fight, this is the second time you've thrown a party against an enemy with a skill too high for most of them to reliably damage, and you've added armor that screws over one of our calibrated weapon users. And then you gave it two calibrated weapons that it doesn't need to switch between, gave it 4 levels in both associated weapon skills, and gave it the ability to heal whenever it downs someone. I admit that a lot of our problems are due to the dice, but the fact that you're fretting about how rallying and defending may potentially be overpowered and difficult to keep track of, seemingly because of one round where we did a lot of that because the strategy we adopted left us with nothing else to do, and after Aysu got zero successes despite rolling six dice, and it feels a bit like you're pouring lemon juice into an open wound. 

[Waterbrick Down]

6 hours ago, Duvors said:

So do you also intend to alter spells to work this way? Because I can't think of at least two that work similarly to Defend/Rally, as well as a bunch with durations that the MM has to keep track of. And it's not 'adding complexity' because it already works that way, it's the baseline complexity you're objecting to.

Those spells have prescribed time limits, they're not infinite, additionally they're giving up a more tangible resource, Spirit. Defend/Rally do not give up anything, by the current logic one could argue that everyone Rallies/Defends everyone outside of combat and starts every battle fully buffed. As for complexity, I think it goes back to rules as intended vs. rules as written. The current rules are unintentionally needlessly complex so this is an attempt to correct that.

6 hours ago, Duvors said:

I was referring to what you said in the post I actually quoted, i.e.; the effect of a rally/defend being lost if the player who took the action goes down, not to whatever this idea is. You never mentioned this specific idea until just now, so I can't possibly have been objecting to it previously.

The original point of conversation was asking whether the actions should stack if a player uses it every round, or whether they should even last longer than a round. The above suggestion is a concise way of wording the second question.

6 hours ago, Duvors said:

There's more to this than some speculation-in-a-vacuum potential rules manipulation. I'm genuinely worried about the possibility of a party being obliged to take this strategy because the MM wildly overtuned a specific enemy and they can't defeat it otherwise. Referring back to the gator fight, this is the second time you've thrown a party against an enemy with a skill too high for most of them to reliably damage, and you've added armor that screws over one of our calibrated weapon users. And then you gave it two calibrated weapons that it doesn't need to switch between, gave it 4 levels in both associated weapon skills, and gave it the ability to heal whenever it downs someone. I admit that a lot of our problems are due to the dice, but the fact that you're fretting about how rallying and defending may potentially be overpowered and difficult to keep track of, seemingly because of one round where we did a lot of that because the strategy we adopted left us with nothing else to do, and after Aysu got zero successes despite rolling six dice, and it feels a bit like you're pouring lemon juice into an open wound. 

I'm saying it brought up a hole in the system (one that I'm not accusing you of abusing yet) even with the first round. If you'd like to discuss the balance of the battle, I'm more than happy to, but it feels like at this point you're frustrated about how a single enemy is tuned to survive against 5 heroes and isn't a cakewalk like the first two battles. If we're talking about Skill being too high, I'll point out you've got 3 characters with Calibrated weapons most with good Weapon Proficiency scores and access to the Rally ability. Given the Gator is only given one action per turn, your most optimal strategy is to have one or two characters taking shots, the other two Rallying, and the last one healing up the ones that get damaged. As for Calibrated weapons, the Gator needs a high enough weapon score to have a small chance of taking out a character in one hit. It won't happen often, but they need to be able to hold their own against a party that can simply negate most of the damage it puts out by either potions or healing spells. I think the party has a very good chance at beating this encounter if they play strategically and in fact the Gator is actually an easier fight because you have Sigrun's ability which is decreasing the points I put into building the encounters. If you want to keep the Gator on land, do something about it, have someone grapple it, go get some chains or a rope, have someone pretend to be gravely injured to lure it back on land.

[Duvors]

13 hours ago, Waterbrick Down said:

Those spells have prescribed time limits, they're not infinite, additionally they're giving up a more tangible resource, Spirit. Defend/Rally do not give up anything, by the current logic one could argue that everyone Rallies/Defends everyone outside of combat and starts every battle fully buffed. As for complexity, I think it goes back to rules as intended vs. rules as written. The current rules are unintentionally needlessly complex so this is an attempt to correct that.

I was mainly referring to Illusory Clone and Warding Bond, which do indeed work much the same way as Rallying/Defending.

13 hours ago, Waterbrick Down said:

The original point of conversation was asking whether the actions should stack if a player uses it every round, or whether they should even last longer than a round. The above suggestion is a concise way of wording the second question.

Maybe, but the statement you quoted wasn't responding to that suggestion to begin with. It was a related suggestion, but it was still distinct.

13 hours ago, Waterbrick Down said:

I'm saying it brought up a hole in the system (one that I'm not accusing you of abusing yet) even with the first round. If you'd like to discuss the balance of the battle, I'm more than happy to, but it feels like at this point you're frustrated about how a single enemy is tuned to survive against 5 heroes and isn't a cakewalk like the first two battles.

It's not that the fight is hard or that we're losing that I'm annoyed by, under most circumstances I'd be perfectly equivocal about that, but the fact that you've chosen this particular battle to complain about the complexity of a system you designed and attempt to nerf a tactic that you're outright admitting is the one we're supposed to use is laying it on a bit thick.

13 hours ago, Waterbrick Down said:

If we're talking about Skill being too high, I'll point out you've got 3 characters with Calibrated weapons most with good Weapon Proficiency scores and access to the Rally ability. Given the Gator is only given one action per turn, your most optimal strategy is to have one or two characters taking shots, the other two Rallying, and the last one healing up the ones that get damaged. As for Calibrated weapons, the Gator needs a high enough weapon score to have a small chance of taking out a character in one hit. It won't happen often, but they need to be able to hold their own against a party that can simply negate most of the damage it puts out by either potions or healing spells.

You know, I probably would've adopted this strategy, but quite frankly the dice in this battle haven't really been on our side enough for it to be worth the risk, one of our heaviest hitters is hovering on two health, our best Rally-er and our best Defender are also our heaviest hitters, and I'm so far the only person who's managed to remember that there are more actions in this system than move/attack/spell. Seriously, so far I'm the only person who seems to have made any effort to strategize or coordinate with my allies, everyone else either blindly does what I tell them, becomes palsied with indecision, or just Leroy-s themselves into the jaws of death. It's just frustrating, especially as I don't find combat particularly interesting to begin with.

13 hours ago, Waterbrick Down said:

I think the party has a very good chance at beating this encounter if they play strategically and in fact the Gator is actually an easier fight because you have Sigrun's ability which is decreasing the points I put into building the encounters. If you want to keep the Gator on land, do something about it, have someone grapple it, go get some chains or a rope, have someone pretend to be gravely injured to lure it back on land.

You know we have no way of knowing that Sigrún is passively making this easier if you don't tell us to begin with. When you told us she had 'danger sense' I thought there were environmental obstacles she help us bypass or make easier, not that fights would become easier by having her tag along. I do appreciate it, but it's kind of odd that you didn't explain the mechanical effects of the various guides when we were choosing them. Seriously, what was that bird guy supposed to do anyway? As for keeping the gator on land, only one of us has any Athletics proficiency, and I don't want him anywhere near the gator because his skill is awful and he's already gone down once (and I also dismissed the possibility earlier because I thought the gator's athletics were higher than they were, that's my fault), we don't have any chains and rope and nobody's going to think of grabbing something from the sled because we didn't even know that was an option, and while I kind of thought of that last one, things have gone badly enough for us that I'd rather just cut our losses and give up whatever CP we'd get from this fight. Also, if we could cross the lake without fighting, then there's no reason to do this anyway. I genuinely thought we had to defeat the gator before we could cross the lake, but if we're already on the other side then there's no point.

[Duvors]

Eye twitch.

You know what?

Fine.

Old college try it is.

[Classic_Spaceman]

13 minutes ago, Duvors said:

Decker: Try Something - Contribute to Combined Nature Check to pacify Gator
Polaris: Try Something - Contribute to Combined Nature Check to pacify Gator
Aysu: Try Something - Contribute to Combined Nature Check to pacify Gator
Ronin: Position - B2, Try Something - Contribute to Combined Nature Check to pacify Gator

I was not aware that combined Proficiency checks were possible! Where in the rules is this discussed? 
 

[Duvors]

8 minutes ago, Classic_Spaceman said:

I was not aware that combined Proficiency checks were possible! Where in the rules is this discussed? 

Nowhere. It was accidentally deleted in a recent revision, but it's been a thing for longer than I've been involved in the project. I distinctly remember a very contentious argument about it during development.

Also, I seem to have missed that Ronin has a Skill of three. Hrmph.

[Classic_Spaceman]

3 minutes ago, Duvors said:

Nowhere. It was accidentally deleted in a recent revision, but it's been a thing for longer than I've been involved in the project. I distinctly remember a very contentious argument about it during development.

In that case, it should be added back (or explicitly prohibited), since it is not something that I would have thought to try otherwise. 
Also, does this only apply to Try Something checks during battles, or can it be used outside of battle as well? 
 

[Duvors]

4 minutes ago, Classic_Spaceman said:

Also, does this only apply to Try Something checks during battles, or can it be used outside of battle as well? 

As written it was clearly intended to be used outside of combat, the intent here is to see if it can be used in combat. I'm also trying to see just how high WBD would set the DC, since per the original text combined checks can exceed dice pool limits and this is an absurd way to win a fight anyway. Personally I feel this is just shy of outright cheating, but I'm trying to prove a point here so I'm ignoring the little twinge of guilt that would normally prevent this.

[Waterbrick Down]

2 hours ago, Duvors said:

I was mainly referring to Illusory Clone and Warding Bond, which do indeed work much the same way as Rallying/Defending.

Maybe, but the statement you quoted wasn't responding to that suggestion to begin with. It was a related suggestion, but it was still distinct.

It's not that the fight is hard or that we're losing that I'm annoyed by, under most circumstances I'd be perfectly equivocal about that, but the fact that you've chosen this particular battle to complain about the complexity of a system you designed and attempt to nerf a tactic that you're outright admitting is the one we're supposed to use is laying it on a bit thick.

You know, I probably would've adopted this strategy, but quite frankly the dice in this battle haven't really been on our side enough for it to be worth the risk, one of our heaviest hitters is hovering on two health, our best Rally-er and our best Defender are also our heaviest hitters, and I'm so far the only person who's managed to remember that there are more actions in this system than move/attack/spell. Seriously, so far I'm the only person who seems to have made any effort to strategize or coordinate with my allies, everyone else either blindly does what I tell them, becomes palsied with indecision, or just Leroy-s themselves into the jaws of death. It's just frustrating, especially as I don't find combat particularly interesting to begin with.

You know we have no way of knowing that Sigrún is passively making this easier if you don't tell us to begin with. When you told us she had 'danger sense' I thought there were environmental obstacles she help us bypass or make easier, not that fights would become easier by having her tag along. I do appreciate it, but it's kind of odd that you didn't explain the mechanical effects of the various guides when we were choosing them. Seriously, what was that bird guy supposed to do anyway? As for keeping the gator on land, only one of us has any Athletics proficiency, and I don't want him anywhere near the gator because his skill is awful and he's already gone down once (and I also dismissed the possibility earlier because I thought the gator's athletics were higher than they were, that's my fault), we don't have any chains and rope and nobody's going to think of grabbing something from the sled because we didn't even know that was an option, and while I kind of thought of that last one, things have gone badly enough for us that I'd rather just cut our losses and give up whatever CP we'd get from this fight. Also, if we could cross the lake without fighting, then there's no reason to do this anyway. I genuinely thought we had to defeat the gator before we could cross the lake, but if we're already on the other side then there's no point.

So a lot of this is I feel is probably better left to discuss in the mission wrap-up, but I prefer to ensure everyone is having a good time playing in the middle of the mission rather than waiting to the end to find out everyone was miserable.

I will say the point about bringing up the Rally/Defend action was truly because it occurred to me at the time how it could be abused and was not meant to create a rule that would impact the current combat (my apologies for not making that clear at the beginning). I am still totally ok with how your team is handling the battle with the given rule as they are now. I was personally bringing the point up as a discussion to see what others thought of it understanding that I would have a bias against and that my current players would have a bias for it. I also brought it up because I have so much going on right now, that it's easy for things to slip my mind and forget to bring them up at the end of the mission.

I empathize with your frustration of how much involvement there is currently on the mission and I do hope we get a little more from folks contributing toward the solution to the current combat. Sorry this mission is fairly combat oriented, I do appreciate though your attempt at trying to find alternative solutions to things.

The point about explicitly sharing the guides different mechanical impacts is a failure on my part as I was under the impression that they were clearly understood by the players. Gunnar would be an extra combatant in fights and provide one free coffee between fights. Sigrun would lower the overall number of dangerous enemies encountered in a fight or help avoid a fight in the first place and provide a free hot cocoa between fights. Geomi provided one free mulled wine between fights and didn't have another ability, but he cost the least giving more credits back to the party. I attempted to convey all of these narratively and through bolding, but apparently that didn't come through.

The point made about crossing and not fighting is valid, though you'll probably have to convince your employer why that's ok. As for alternative strategies, the entire point of the Try Something action is to allow for creative solutions. If you're not sure something is available (ropes or chains) or an another strategy is viable, ask. I'd much rather there be clarity when possibly than frustrated confusion. Again my goal is for everyone to enjoy playing, if that's not happening then lets find a way to fix that. 

1 hour ago, Classic_Spaceman said:

In that case, it should be added back (or explicitly prohibited), since it is not something that I would have thought to try otherwise. 
Also, does this only apply to Try Something checks during battles, or can it be used outside of battle as well? 
 

I'm drafting a revision currently to add it back in, but I'll put something in the FAQ for now. Players can assist others outside of battle, it simply becomes:

Player A and Player B Proficiency Check (DC X) - (3d6 + Player A Proficiency d6's + Player B Proficiency d6's)

There just needs to be a meaningful explanation of how someone assists someone else in the situation. If you're crammed in a tight ally trying to break a door down, you can't really have two people trying together to break it down. But if its a wide enough space both players can help try and knock it down with their combined strength.

59 minutes ago, Duvors said:

As written it was clearly intended to be used outside of combat, the intent here is to see if it can be used in combat. I'm also trying to see just how high WBD would set the DC, since per the original text combined checks can exceed dice pool limits and this is an absurd way to win a fight anyway. Personally I feel this is just shy of outright cheating, but I'm trying to prove a point here so I'm ignoring the little twinge of guilt that would normally prevent this.

It's a valid strategy assuming everyone comes up with a meaningful way of contributing to try and pacify the creature.

[Duvors]

@Waterbrick Down Thank you. I'm perfectly fine with Rally/Defend having some additional limitations, but I feel personally that giving them a one round duration makes them awkward to use.

[Waterbrick Down]

37 minutes ago, Duvors said:

@Waterbrick Down Thank you. I'm perfectly fine with Rally/Defend having some additional limitations, but I feel personally that giving them a one round duration makes them awkward to use.

I appreciate the feedback, I'll see if I can devise a system where they aren't so easy to forget.

[Zepher]

I think opportunity attacks were taken out of the game, but a lack of them makes positioning yourself away from a baddie really tough! I know Gheyns has a 3 velocity, but as it stands even using allies to block his movement there is literally nowhere between the two speeders I can move to that he can't get to me and attack within the turn! Maybe we need a fix for that if we're going to make positioning a thing.

[Duvors]

13 minutes ago, Zepher said:

I think opportunity attacks were taken out of the game, but a lack of them makes positioning yourself away from a baddie really tough! I know Gheyns has a 3 velocity, but as it stands even using allies to block his movement there is literally nowhere between the two speeders I can move to that he can't get to me and attack within the turn! Maybe we need a fix for that if we're going to make positioning a thing.

They're still part of the game, but they currently only happen if an enemy in melee range attacks a non-adjacent target.

[Waterbrick Down]

1 hour ago, Zepher said:

I think opportunity attacks were taken out of the game, but a lack of them makes positioning yourself away from a baddie really tough! I know Gheyns has a 3 velocity, but as it stands even using allies to block his movement there is literally nowhere between the two speeders I can move to that he can't get to me and attack within the turn! Maybe we need a fix for that if we're going to make positioning a thing.

Mission 2 had quite a few fights that had them, but it definitely made things difficult on the players as they couldn't position themselves well, so the ranged characters were constantly either choosing a -1 or -2 penalty to attacks or a having an opportunistic attack come their way. It seems like one of those things that can either go heavily in the players favor or heavily against them. Duvors is right in that they're still around, they're just more limited in their triggers. Your best bet is to stick a melee fighter right on top of the ranged fighter and then position yourself so that the best shot they can get is one taken next to the melee fighter.

[Classic_Spaceman]

On 10/16/2021 at 11:44 PM, Waterbrick Down said:

Flare - An area of 4 squares or a single Target is lit with Bright Light for one combat round (Consumable)

I meant to ask this before: Are flares going to be available from one of the shops in the Trade Bazar, or are they a mission-specific item? 
 

[Waterbrick Down]

3 minutes ago, Classic_Spaceman said:

I meant to ask this before: Are flares going to be available from one of the shops in the Trade Bazar, or are they a mission-specific item? 
 

Currently a mission specific item. I generally like to test things in missions to see how balanced they are before making them available to everyone via the Trade Bazar. It also encourages folks to engage with the setting because they might find opportunities to buy things in their specific mission that would be hard to find elsewhere. 

[Classic_Spaceman]

Just now, Waterbrick Down said:

Currently a mission specific item. I generally like to test things in missions to see how balanced they are before making them available to everyone via the Trade Bazar. It also encourages folks to engage with the setting because they might find opportunities to buy things in their specific mission that would be hard to find elsewhere. 

OK - That makes sense. 👍
 

[Classic_Spaceman]

58 minutes ago, Waterbrick Down said:

Query Coding Proficiency Check - (2,4,6,5,1,6,4,5,+1) 7 Successes

How does Query have so many dice? Is this a combined check with Yelana, and what was the check for? 
 

[Waterbrick Down]

10 hours ago, Classic_Spaceman said:

How does Query have so many dice? Is this a combined check with Yelana, and what was the check for? 
 

Proficiency Checks are (3 + Proficiency dice). It is not a combined check. Yelana is getting an idea of how competent Query is at monitoring.

[Kintobor]

It’s a big, scary world out there, and not all of it is levelled to your character. 

[Classic_Spaceman]

17 hours ago, Waterbrick Down said:

Proficiency Checks are (3 + Proficiency dice). It is not a combined check. Yelana is getting an idea of how competent Query is at monitoring.

Ah, OK. 👍
 

[Kintobor]

Can you still move while blinded?

[Waterbrick Down]

1 minute ago, Kintobor said:

Can you still move while blinded?

Per the rules yes.