Heroica: Glory Amongst The Stars - Rules & FAQ

[Kintobor]

Cool, just making sure.

[Duvors]

@karmajay Just to be clear, the 'Try Something' action exists as a way to allow proficiency checks in combat, you don't need to specify that you're using it. You are supposed to specify which proficiency you're attempting to use, however.

[Zepher]

Am I right in saying spirit doesn’t come back after a combat any more? That rule changed a long time ago right?

One rule change I’d suggest is that we remove the meditate action, or else healers can basically heal everyone back up to full health after each combat.

[Waterbrick Down]

3 hours ago, Zepher said:

Am I right in saying spirit doesn’t come back after a combat any more? That rule changed a long time ago right?

One rule change I’d suggest is that we remove the meditate action, or else healers can basically heal everyone back up to full health after each combat.

 We had this exact conversation a couple months ago about introducing the meditate action. Yes it does mean that everyone starts at full health after each combat. Meditate was originally a spell to help casters stay relevant, but it started becoming a "spell tax" as those casters without it were seriously outclassed by those with it. The issue with getting full Spirit after combat means casters are less likely to use spells in non-combat situations because they'll be afraid they won't have enough for combat. If you have Spirit refresh at the start of combat, you end up with the same issue except in reverse. Other systems typically balance the spell resource issue with a rest mechanic, but since we don't have one, the current system is in favor of the players since the MM have a plethora of options at their disposal to adjust for difficulty.

[Kintobor]

Perhaps meditate can only restore half of a PCs Spirit and always activates at the end of combat? So you always get back at least half your spirit at the end of combat instead of meditating?

[Waterbrick Down]

12 hours ago, Kintobor said:

Perhaps meditate can only restore half of a PCs Spirit and always activates at the end of combat? So you always get back at least half your spirit at the end of combat instead of meditating?

And then you still get full Spirit at the beginning of combat?

[Duvors]

14 hours ago, Kintobor said:

Perhaps meditate can only restore half of a PCs Spirit and always activates at the end of combat? So you always get back at least half your spirit at the end of combat instead of meditating?

That doesn't really work, because then a player can meditate anyway to gain the full cost back. Besides, Meditate doesn't work off of max spirit, it works off of spell proficiency successes. You're supposed to roll for the amount regained each time.

[Waterbrick Down]

A few options:
Scrap meditate, Restore Spirit at the end of Combat - Downside: Hesitancy to use Spirit outside of Combat
Scrap meditate, Restore Spirit at the beginning of Combat - Downside: Hesitancy to use Spirit outside of Combat
Scrap meditate, Restore Spirit at the beginning and end of Combat - Downside: Less spell usage total (spells need to feel equivalent to features that are "always on" that other characters invest their points into)
Make Meditate a combat only action - Downside: Combat may be artificially lengthened to allow casters to refresh Spirit
Allow Meditate as an action at any time - Downside: More spell usage total (i.e. unlimited healing)
Make Meditate a spell - Downside: Spell tax (i.e. all casters will feel the need to take it, power disparity between those with it vs. those without)
Create a rest mechanic that refreshes Vitality and Spirit - Downside: New mechanic for MM to have to manage
Increase available Spirit, but limit how much can be spent on a single Spell equal to Casting Proficiency - Downside: New mechanic needs to be tested

[Zepher]

2 hours ago, Waterbrick Down said:

A few options:
Create a rest mechanic that refreshes Vitality and Spirit - Downside: New mechanic for MM to have to manage

This was going to be my suggestion. I think there are a LOT of benefits to it, and I think it's the obvious fix. As opposed to an RPG where the players can attempt to call for it, I think it should be purely MM based, not based off of "rests" but instead moments where spirit restores (milestone, essentially). It's just the same as declaring "now there is a battle!" and "now there is a social challenge" etc. I think it'd take maybe an extra five minutes of planning at the top of a mission from the MM, frankly.

The reason I suggest this solution is because of all the downsides the other methods you suggested have.

The reason this strikes me as a major issue is this: either you are playing with a spellcaster who has a healing spell, and EVERYONE returns to full vitality and spirit between every combat, or no one in the party has it, and you're playing a game where people NEVER return to full vitality after combat. Those are VERY different games. I think it's more fun to have it be the latter, since it makes each combat count - even just a scratch could have an impact down the line.

And hoarding spirit I don't think would be too worrisome, especially as the reserves get a bit higher. If you want to be a SPELLCASTER, you really up your spirit. Otherwise, you select spells that work with the rest of your kit, and use only one spell per combat. This is a well-built game because people can also always rally or defend, if they've invested a little. Additionally, spell-casters might just be expected to carry an Aetherbrew or two with them - that wouldn't be a wild spell-casting tax.

And, to back up the claim that it is doable, I've purposefully played all of Mission 7 without meditating once, as a test case. It is the LONGEST mission to date, and has (obviously) not utilized the suggested "rest" mechanic. I think that our dwindling Vitality and Spirit has made for a more fun game. I don't know if my other players and MM agree - if they don't, I'll happily just boost everyone up to full right now, and meditate my spirit right back up too!

[The Legonater]

1 hour ago, Zepher said:

And, to back up the claim that it is doable, I've purposefully played all of Mission 7 without meditating once, as a test case. It is the LONGEST mission to date, and has (obviously) not utilized the suggested "rest" mechanic. I think that our dwindling Vitality and Spirit has made for a more fun game. I don't know if my other players and MM agree - if they don't, I'll happily just boost everyone up to full right now, and meditate my spirit right back up too!

Not even that, but I'm pretty sure you've shot down my attempts to throw you a ball. 

In any case, it does work thematically with the pseudo-dungeon crawl vibe of #7. I'm happy to go along with whatever the players want but the dwindling supplies definitely help set the tone. I also think it's interesting that, unless I've been rolling wrong, Merei isn't really built for high-healing outputs, at least not yet.

[Waterbrick Down]

3 hours ago, Zepher said:

This was going to be my suggestion. I think there are a LOT of benefits to it, and I think it's the obvious fix. As opposed to an RPG where the players can attempt to call for it, I think it should be purely MM based, not based off of "rests" but instead moments where spirit restores (milestone, essentially). It's just the same as declaring "now there is a battle!" and "now there is a social challenge" etc. I think it'd take maybe an extra five minutes of planning at the top of a mission from the MM, frankly.

The reason I suggest this solution is because of all the downsides the other methods you suggested have.

The reason this strikes me as a major issue is this: either you are playing with a spellcaster who has a healing spell, and EVERYONE returns to full vitality and spirit between every combat, or no one in the party has it, and you're playing a game where people NEVER return to full vitality after combat. Those are VERY different games. I think it's more fun to have it be the latter, since it makes each combat count - even just a scratch could have an impact down the line.

And hoarding spirit I don't think would be too worrisome, especially as the reserves get a bit higher. If you want to be a SPELLCASTER, you really up your spirit. Otherwise, you select spells that work with the rest of your kit, and use only one spell per combat. This is a well-built game because people can also always rally or defend, if they've invested a little. Additionally, spell-casters might just be expected to carry an Aetherbrew or two with them - that wouldn't be a wild spell-casting tax.

And, to back up the claim that it is doable, I've purposefully played all of Mission 7 without meditating once, as a test case. It is the LONGEST mission to date, and has (obviously) not utilized the suggested "rest" mechanic. I think that our dwindling Vitality and Spirit has made for a more fun game. I don't know if my other players and MM agree - if they don't, I'll happily just boost everyone up to full right now, and meditate my spirit right back up too!

My only reservation about giving MM control over when Spirit refreshes (outside of Ætherbrews) is it then makes the feel of the game to a spell caster much more heavily dependent upon the MM. Are they the type that is stingy on refreshes or generous? Will the MM be tempted to throw more challenges at the party to intentionally deplete their Æther so that the caster can't simply use a spell to solve a solution. Alternatively will the MM pull their punches because a caster is out of Spirit due to bad rolls? I think veteran MM will have an easier time managing the balance, I just worry about it being a barrier to entry for new MM who might feel overwhelmed having to manage how much Spirit is available to the casters.

[Duvors]

6 hours ago, Waterbrick Down said:

Create a rest mechanic that refreshes Vitality and Spirit - Downside: New mechanic for MM to have to manage

The issue here is twofold; the first, which you've mentioned, is making it MM-dependent puts a character's abilities in the hands of the MM rather than the player, and the second is that making it player-dependent results in a system that is only differentiated from meditate as it currently stands by:

• Restoring all Sprit automatically, rather than rolling (this distinction isn't important now, but it will be once Sprit scores outpace casting scores).
• Restoring all Vitality automatically without requiring a dedicated healer.
• (Potentially?) Requiring the entire party to do it.

In other words making it more powerful, but also somewhat more annoying to use.

6 hours ago, Waterbrick Down said:

Increase available Spirit, but limit how much can be spent on a single Spell equal to Casting Proficiency - Downside: New mechanic needs to be tested

This is the option I'd personally prefer, but I'm in no way enthusiastic about it.
I should also point out that the Battlemage and Martial Artist classes are both built around the idea that they gain benefits from having high spirit, but also have incentives to spend it (explicitly in the Battlemage's case, implicitly for the MA) and changing or removing meditate would seriously effect their intended playstyle and render them significantly weaker than intended.

[Kintobor]

What if we limited the amount of times Meditate could be used? As in you can only meditate once per mission?

[Zepher]

18 hours ago, Waterbrick Down said:

My only reservation about giving MM control over when Spirit refreshes (outside of Ætherbrews) is it then makes the feel of the game to a spell caster much more heavily dependent upon the MM. Are they the type that is stingy on refreshes or generous? Will the MM be tempted to throw more challenges at the party to intentionally deplete their Æther so that the caster can't simply use a spell to solve a solution. Alternatively will the MM pull their punches because a caster is out of Spirit due to bad rolls? I think veteran MM will have an easier time managing the balance, I just worry about it being a barrier to entry for new MM who might feel overwhelmed having to manage how much Spirit is available to the casters.

A lot of things are MM dependent! I think that'd be fine, and it allows the MM to craft the story they want. Legonator, for example, would probably NOT want to include that mechanic a lot in Mission #7 for the reason they said. Mission 5 would also probably not have a lot of restores. Meanwhile, I could see Kinto offering it in #8 where it makes sense!

17 hours ago, Duvors said:

The issue here is twofold; the first, which you've mentioned, is making it MM-dependent puts a character's abilities in the hands of the MM rather than the player, and the second is that making it player-dependent results in a system that is only differentiated from meditate as it currently stands by:

• Restoring all Sprit automatically, rather than rolling (this distinction isn't important now, but it will be once Sprit scores outpace casting scores)

But the rolls actually don't matter, because if I don't get back all my spirit, and I'm out of combat, I just immediately meditate again.

I think the solution, if anything, is to buff Aetherbrew, or make it a bit cheaper. It allows the players the autonomy to not be fully reliant on their MM!

17 hours ago, Kintobor said:

What if we limited the amount of times Meditate could be used? As in you can only meditate once per mission?

This would work fine too, but is basically the same as a Aetherbrew. Again, I frankly think it's fine to say Aetherbrew is just expected to be carried by heavy spell users, especially because, again, you can pick up just a bit of spirit if that's the vibe you're going for. People who are heavy casters will have to dump some points into having high spirit reserves. That's okay!

Alternatively/additionally, we could lower the cost of the "upcasting" if we're super concerned with this, so that it's just 1, 2, 3, and 4. I don't think that'd be game breaking - even a year in I think only one or two characters could pull off a highest level cast, and it would deplete them!

[Duvors]

19 hours ago, Kintobor said:

What if we limited the amount of times Meditate could be used? As in you can only meditate once per mission?

That would be outright crippling as stated here, and more uses in this paradigm would add more complexity than I'm happy with for a non-class mechanic.

1 hour ago, Zepher said:

A lot of things are MM dependent! I think that'd be fine, and it allows the MM to craft the story they want. Legonator, for example, would probably NOT want to include that mechanic a lot in Mission #7 for the reason they said. Mission 5 would also probably not have a lot of restores. Meanwhile, I could see Kinto offering it in #8 where it makes sense!

I don't care how many things are MM dependent, a MM should not have control over a player's access to their own abilities.

1 hour ago, Zepher said:

But the rolls actually don't matter, because if I don't get back all my spirit, and I'm out of combat, I just immediately meditate again.

I think the solution, if anything, is to buff Aetherbrew, or make it a bit cheaper. It allows the players the autonomy to not be fully reliant on their MM!

As a matter of fact I think it is important, because if the MM commits to rolling for it then the player has to make a separate post for every time they meditate. It's also part of the reason that Ætherbrews are better at restoring spirit, as they will always restore the highest amount you can get from meditating +1-6. Meditating on the other hand can potentially restore nothing if you roll badly enough. This becomes less likely as your casting proficiency increases, but unless you're deliberately withholding points from Spirit the latter is likely to shoot ahead of the former by a large amount, meaning that even if you have enough dice to nearly always succeed in meditating, It's rarely going to be enough to fully restore spirit.

1 hour ago, Zepher said:

This would work fine too, but is basically the same as a Aetherbrew. Again, I frankly think it's fine to say Aetherbrew is just expected to be carried by heavy spell users, especially because, again, you can pick up just a bit of spirit if that's the vibe you're going for. People who are heavy casters will have to dump some points into having high spirit reserves. That's okay!

It's not basically the same, in fact it's more like the resting mechanic you propose, but with a different limiter on usage. Ætherbrews cost money and fill a limited inventory while having a one-time use, meditating doesn't do this but isn't as strong and the same goes for all the suggestions in thread. The only meaningful difference between meditating as is, rests, and limited meditations is the degree to which they make the process annoying and complicated. Personally I have yet to see any suggestion that isn't just 'make this system more awkward to use'. That is not how you balance something. I personally think that the implicit tedium in the current arrangement is also an example of this, but I can't think of a way of fixing it nor do I see any suggestions that actually address that.

2 hours ago, Zepher said:

Alternatively/additionally, we could lower the cost of the "upcasting" if we're super concerned with this, so that it's just 1, 2, 3, and 4. I don't think that'd be game breaking - even a year in I think only one or two characters could pull off a highest level cast, and it would deplete them!

So make it so casting the highest levels of spellcasting only requires an 8 point investment instead of 14? That's a big change to something that was originally balanced in the intent that casters wouldn't automatically have access to meditation. It would equalize the points cost of multiple castings of lowest-level Purging Font and Healing Light with the higher level casting for the same number of people, but that's a really niche benefit.

20 hours ago, Duvors said:

I should also point out that the Battlemage and Martial Artist classes are both built around the idea that they gain benefits from having high spirit, but also have incentives to spend it (explicitly in the Battlemage's case, implicitly for the MA) and changing or removing meditate would seriously effect their intended playstyle and render them significantly weaker than intended.

Since the import of this seems to have been missed, let me state it more clearly; we have untested features that directly interact with this rule, and changing it has the potential to seriously undermine their playstyle. They were designed in a context in which meditate was optional, but we've never tested how well they function with or without it and were still intended to require it to play optimally.

[Waterbrick Down]

On 1/24/2022 at 10:45 PM, Kintobor said:

What if we limited the amount of times Meditate could be used? As in you can only meditate once per mission?

This will be an issue due to differing lengths of missions though.

23 hours ago, Zepher said:

A lot of things are MM dependent! I think that'd be fine, and it allows the MM to craft the story they want. Legonator, for example, would probably NOT want to include that mechanic a lot in Mission #7 for the reason they said. Mission 5 would also probably not have a lot of restores. Meanwhile, I could see Kinto offering it in #8 where it makes sense!

But the rolls actually don't matter, because if I don't get back all my spirit, and I'm out of combat, I just immediately meditate again.

I get what you're going for with wanting to give MM the ability to create a sense of scarcity to up the tension of a given scenario. Currently they don't have that particular lever of control to keep it from being abused.

23 hours ago, Zepher said:

I think the solution, if anything, is to buff Aetherbrew, or make it a bit cheaper. It allows the players the autonomy to not be fully reliant on their MM!

This would work fine too, but is basically the same as a Aetherbrew. Again, I frankly think it's fine to say Aetherbrew is just expected to be carried by heavy spell users, especially because, again, you can pick up just a bit of spirit if that's the vibe you're going for. People who are heavy casters will have to dump some points into having high spirit reserves. That's okay!

I get your point about Ætherbrews and agree that as characters get more advanced they'll have more Spirit reserves, but I also feel like they'll probably feel more required to spend more Spirit because the challenges will be more difficult to accommodate the higher "level" of play.

23 hours ago, Zepher said:

Alternatively/additionally, we could lower the cost of the "upcasting" if we're super concerned with this, so that it's just 1, 2, 3, and 4. I don't think that'd be game breaking - even a year in I think only one or two characters could pull off a highest level cast, and it would deplete them!

I'd prefer to keep Spirit costs as they currently stand because they're balanced to have some advantages at casting at a higher level, but it not be outright the default choice in any given scenario. Something to stew on though.

20 hours ago, Duvors said:

I don't care how many things are MM dependent, a MM should not have control over a player's access to their own abilities.

To be fair they'd only have control if the player had used up all their Spirit and didn't have any Ætherbrews. Plus in a sense MM have control over a player's access to abilities if they reduce the player's Vitality to 0, throw a monster at the party with enough armor that makes one hero's weapon ineffective, etc. This is simply a more direct case of being able to gate certain abilities.

20 hours ago, Duvors said:

As a matter of fact I think it is important, because if the MM commits to rolling for it then the player has to make a separate post for every time they meditate. It's also part of the reason that Ætherbrews are better at restoring spirit, as they will always restore the highest amount you can get from meditating +1-6. Meditating on the other hand can potentially restore nothing if you roll badly enough. This becomes less likely as your casting proficiency increases, but unless you're deliberately withholding points from Spirit the latter is likely to shoot ahead of the former by a large amount, meaning that even if you have enough dice to nearly always succeed in meditating, It's rarely going to be enough to fully restore spirit.

In the missions I've run and to some extent been on, the precedent seems to have been that casters implicitly Meditate to full Spirit, no matter if they say it once or multiple times. As a MM, I want something simple outside of combat, I don't want to have a player have to wait for each result on restoring Spirit as it slows down the pacing.

21 hours ago, Duvors said:

It's not basically the same, in fact it's more like the resting mechanic you propose, but with a different limiter on usage. Ætherbrews cost money and fill a limited inventory while having a one-time use, meditating doesn't do this but isn't as strong and the same goes for all the suggestions in thread. The only meaningful difference between meditating as is, rests, and limited meditations is the degree to which they make the process annoying and complicated. Personally I have yet to see any suggestion that isn't just 'make this system more awkward to use'. That is not how you balance something. I personally think that the implicit tedium in the current arrangement is also an example of this, but I can't think of a way of fixing it nor do I see any suggestions that actually address that.

How about you can only Meditate once between Combats and then as many times as you want during Combat? Would that be a fair compromise? It allows for some casting between combats, but allows casters to be useful throughout a battle.

21 hours ago, Duvors said:

Since the import of this seems to have been missed, let me state it more clearly; we have untested features that directly interact with this rule, and changing it has the potential to seriously undermine their playstyle. They were designed in a context in which meditate was optional, but we've never tested how well they function with or without it and were still intended to require it to play optimally.

I'm in agreement here, I'd like to hold off on any major changes to the way Spirit works so as not to unduly cause issue with these classes.

So the crux of the problem is: We want MM to have the ability to increase tension on players via Vitality and Spirit scarcity, but we also want players to have ready access to the features of their build which by their very nature have a limited number of uses to balance for their potential power. (We'd also prefer it to be a simple mechanic and not impact existing mechanics too much. )

[Duvors]

I'm starting to think that the issue with meditate isn't so much 'it's implemented badly' as 'it exists'. It may be that there is no way to implement this cleanly and the idea should be abandoned.

In other news, I think I do need to test the Battlemage and MA, so I'll run a brief fight to see how they function under the current rules. To start with, their stats. These are both 30 point builds with starting equipment packages and 10 credits spent on a plasma potion each:

Martial Artist
Vitality: 7
Velocity: 2
Strength: 4
Skill: 1
Smarts: 1
Spirit: 3
Spells: Healing Light, Quantum Transposition, Warding Bond
Proficiencies: Acrobatics 5, Religion 2, Short Range 1
Equipment: Calibrated Kinetic Short Range, Standard Elemental Armor
Inventory: Plasma Potion

Battlemage
Vitality: 6+2
Velocity: 2
Strength: 2
Skill: 2
Smarts: 2
Spirit: 4
Spells: Gravimetric Propulsion, Gravity Sink, Illusory Clone, Warding Bond
Proficiencies: Arcana 5, Deception 1, Long Range 2, Stealth 1
Equipment: Standard Elemental Long Range, Standard Energy Armor
Inventory: Shield Booster, Plasma Potion

This fight will also make use of the directional obscurement rules from earlier in this thread (because white room fights are silly) as well as a vertical movement system I've devised:

Under this system, a 'square' in grid terms is considered to actually be a cube. Thus, the occupied space and the vertical space adjacent to it are considered to be the same 'square', meaning it costs no movement to switch between vertical and horizontal movement. The other vertical square and the uppermost horizontal one however are both considered separate squares. If a Vertical surface has no handholds, a character can only move 1/2 of their Velocity on it and cannot end their turn there. Thus it costs one velocity to move diagonally from one to the other. All in all, moving from the lowest square in this picture to the highest costs 2 velocity.

As to the rest, initiative will be rolled every round, and both characters will be played by myself unless people show an interest in playing one or more of the characters between now and when the fight is run.

Edited January 26, 2022 by Duvors

[Duvors]

10 minutes ago, Waterbrick Down said:

To be fair they'd only have control if the player had used up all their Spirit and didn't have any Ætherbrews. Plus in a sense MM have control over a player's access to abilities if they reduce the player's Vitality to 0, throw a monster at the party with enough armor that makes one hero's weapon ineffective, etc. This is simply a more direct case of being able to gate certain abilities.

I think what bothers me here is that those examples are to some extent 'fair'. The actions the MM takes are on the 'world' end of the spectrum and to some extent can be mitigated and avoided. Resting recover spirit is a 'player' end action and really should be a player choice if implemented. MMs have plenty of ways to narratively restrict access (ticking clocks, wandering monsters, delineated safe zones) that making it an MM end decision mechanically is a bit too harsh on spellcasters.

26 minutes ago, Waterbrick Down said:

How about you can only Meditate once between Combats and then as many times as you want during Combat? Would that be a fair compromise? It allows for some casting between combats, but allows casters to be useful throughout a battle.

This still has the issue regarding artificially extending combats, doesn't really create the scarcity desired, and is just narratively weird. I'd formulate this idea more like to following:

# meditates = 1/2 highest casting prof per battle (or rest if implemented), leftovers pre battle/rest are deleted.

I think this also would address the 'automatically Meditate to full' issue, at least partly.

[Zepher]

This'll be my last response - I've made my complaint, and I don't feel the need to go on about it forever back and forth.

23 hours ago, Duvors said:

I don't care how many things are MM dependent, a MM should not have control over a player's access to their own abilities.

They already do, by virtue of starting a fight to restore spirit or not. In fact, in the current situation, players with spirit are punished for solving things either diplomatically, stealthily, or cleverly, since none of those restore spirit!

Quote

As a matter of fact I think it is important, because if the MM commits to rolling for it then the player has to make a separate post for every time they meditate. It's also part of the reason that Ætherbrews are better at restoring spirit, as they will always restore the highest amount you can get from meditating +1-6. Meditating on the other hand can potentially restore nothing if you roll badly enough. This becomes less likely as your casting proficiency increases, but unless you're deliberately withholding points from Spirit the latter is likely to shoot ahead of the former by a large amount, meaning that even if you have enough dice to nearly always succeed in meditating, It's rarely going to be enough to fully restore spirit.

This argument, I have to say, is especially strange to me. Why can someone only call for meditate once a post? Why not just post "I meditate, which is a cost-free action, over and over again". What's the difference if it is done then, or over many posts? That just makes things longer. "Oh, I logged on today, but my meditate roll didn't go well. Okay, everyone hold up, I gotta try again. We can go to the next section tomorrow, unless I don't roll well, in which case I'll meditate again!"

Quote

So make it so casting the highest levels of spellcasting only requires an 8 point investment instead of 14? That's a big change to something that was originally balanced in the intent that casters wouldn't automatically have access to meditation. It would equalize the points cost of multiple castings of lowest-level Purging Font and Healing Light with the higher level casting for the same number of people, but that's a really niche benefit.

Yes, that is what I'm proposing (though it took me a second to understand what you were talking about). To be honest, I think you're overly nervous about it. 8 points is still a lot. It gets them ONE casting of a high level spell.  They're probably not good at much else, and that's their big move for the battle. No one, no one, in 8 months of this game, would be able to cast even one top line spell per combat yet. But if you're very afraid, even a 1-2-4-5 split might make it more safe.

EDIT: But, you're right, they're very powerful. With a sort of MM triggered rest mechanic, I think we could still leave them at their current levels. I still think we're potentially a good nine months away from seeing them used at all, and then it'll still be a massive drain on the person, but if that's a real sticking point, it's fine as is.

2 hours ago, Waterbrick Down said:

So the crux of the problem is: We want MM to have the ability to increase tension on players via Vitality and Spirit scarcity, but we also want players to have ready access to the features of their build which by their very nature have a limited number of uses to balance for their potential power. (We'd also prefer it to be a simple mechanic and not impact existing mechanics too much. )

That isn't actually the exact crux I'm thinking of - it's that if we leave things as they stand, there are two games you're playing. Either a party has a spellcaster with a healing spell, and they're playing Game A: full vitality and spirit returned after each combat, or they don't, and they're playing Game B: vitality is very precious, because it is extremely difficult to restore. In one, the results of each battle have no impact on the next. In the other, they very much do. The fact that I personally prefer Game B isn't really my point (though, it is the one I prefer, because why have a battle if there are no consequences what-so-ever?), but rather that those are wildly different games! Which one should this game be?

But, again, I've said my piece.

[Duvors]

44 minutes ago, Zepher said:

They already do, by virtue of starting a fight to restore spirit or not. In fact, in the current situation, players with spirit are punished for solving things either diplomatically, stealthily, or cleverly, since none of those restore spirit!

I... don't understand this? Unless I've forgotten something Spirit doesn't refresh at the start of battles anymore. It would be completely superfluous with meditate as an action. And meditation is hardly incompatible with diplomacy, stealth, or intelligence.

[Zepher]

9 minutes ago, Duvors said:

I... don't understand this? Unless I've forgotten something Spirit doesn't refresh at the start of battles anymore. It would be completely superfluous with meditate as an action. And meditation is hardly incompatible with diplomacy, stealth, or intelligence.

It resets after battles according to the current rules. So if you don’t spam meditate, it only restores if combat is triggered. Though you’re right, we haven’t been running it that way - it might be hold overs from previous rules that are still on the cards in the first post.

[Duvors]

1 minute ago, Zepher said:

It resets after battles according to the current rules. So if you don’t spam meditate, it only restores if combat is triggered.

That needs to be removed then, it's utterly superfluous.

[Duvors]

Martial Artist vs. Battlemage

Setup

Azure is the Martial Artist, Black is the Battlemage. The bushes, the pillars, and the balcony railing count as light cover, and characters may move through them. The balcony itself counts as moderate cover, but the balcony's cover only applies to attacks from below and are not applied simultaneously with the railing's. The pillars are considered two squares high for movement purposes. Initiative ties are rerolled.

Round One

Initiative: Azure (6,2), Black (6,2). Tie, reroll. Azure (6,1), Black (5,5). Black goes first.
Black: Move to B6, uses Transmuter's Advantage. Armor is now Kinetic.
Azure: Move to B3, move to A4 (Flow Like Water) and attack with Short Range: (2,+2 vs. 5,6,+1) failure.

Black starts by moving to take cover and altering their armor to better intercept their opponent's attacks. Azure seemingly makes a similar move, but surprises their opponent with a sudden burst of speed as they snap off a wild shot at them.

Round Two

Initiative: Azure (2,1), Black (6,5). Black goes first.
Black: Move to D6, cast Pulling Point on Azure to A3 (3,1,6,6,6) 3 damage. Spirit 3, +1 die to next attack, Vitality 6+1. Azure Vitality 4.
Azure: Move to C3, move to D4 and attack with Short Range (4,+2 vs. 4,5,+1) failure.

Black desperately tries to keep their opponent at bay, injuring them severely in the process while moving to a safer distance. Azure keeps up the pressure though, speeding toward them and firing wildly.

Round Three

Initiative: Azure (4,5), Black (2,4). Azure goes first.
Azure: Move to D5, make two unarmed attacks (Master of the Warlike Art) (1,5,2,6 vs. 6,5,+1) failure, (2,6,4,1 vs 2,5, +1) failure.
Black: Move to F8, attack with Long Range (5,3,3,+1 vs. 5,+1) success, 2 damage. Azure Vitality 2.

Azure makes a valiant attempt to injure their opponent, but only one attack lands. And that one is easily deflected by Black's armor. Black in turn retreats behind cover and fires a crippling shot at their foe.

Round Four

Initiative: Azure (1,4), Black (2,3). Azure goes first.
Azure: Move to C3, cast Shielding Ward on Self. Spirit 0.
Black: Move to H8, cast Shielding Ward on Self. Spirit 0, +3 die to next attack, Vitality 6.

Azure recognizes how dire their situation is and dives for cover, casting a spell of protection on themselves. Recognizing that they can no longer injure their opponent, Black mimics them - strengthening their next attack in the process.

Round Five

Initiative: Azure (1,1), Black (3,1). Tie, reroll. Azure (5,2), Black (5,6). Black goes first.
Black: Move to H6, Meditate (1,2,2,6,1), Spirit 1.
Azure: Move to E1, Meditate (3,4), Spirit 1.

Black moves so their view is unobstructed by the fountain, keeping cover behind the pillars. It's still to long a shot, so they decide to recuperate. Azure moves to take cover behind the potted plant and begins to marshal their strength in turn.

Round Six

Initiative: Azure (6,5), Black (2,5). Azure goes first.
Azure: Move to D1, uses Plasma Potion (4) Vitality 6.
Black: Move to G4, cast Diverting Duplicate. Spirit 0, +4 die to next attack.

Azure shifts to better place the plant between them and their adversary and downs a healing elixir. Black decides to make themselves even harder to injure, conjuring a number of illusory duplicates to distract Azure's strikes.

Round Seven

Initiative: Azure (5,4), Black (6,1). Azure goes first.
Azure: Move to F3, make an unarmed attack and move to G2 (2,4,6,4 vs. 3,1,+6) failure, one Shielding Ward left.
Black: Move to E4, attack with Long Range (4,4,1,3,4,1,+1 vs. 5,+6) failure, one Shielding Ward left.

Azure charges their opponent in desperate attempt to fight back, but their lone swing in deflected by Black's spell and they swiftly dive behind a nearby pillar. Black rushes out to a position where they can hit their opponent easily and fires, but it's not enough to penetrate their enemy's defenses. However both of their spells of protection have been weakened.

Round Eight

Initiative: Azure (4,5), Black (4,6). tie, reroll. Azure (1,2), Black (1,3). Tie, reroll. Azure (6,5), Black (2,2). Azure goes first.
Azure: Move to F2 and attack with Short Range (5,+2 vs. 5,6,+6) failure, enemy Shielding Ward gone. Switch to vertical and move up 1 and to G3 (upper).
Black: Move to D2, Meditate (5,6,3,1,3) Spirit 2, Vitality 6+1.

Azure makes another desperate attack against their opponent. Predictably it does no damage, but it does end the protective spell. They then run up one of the balcony's supporting pillars and take refuge behind the railing. Black in turn runs behind the potted plant and restores some of their magical energy.

Round Nine

Initiative: Azure (6,1), Black (5,6). Black goes first.
Black: Black casts Pulling Point on Azure to F2 (upper) (4,6,3,4,2) 3 damage, Spirit 1, Vitality 6, +1 die to next attack. Azure Vitality 3. Azure falls two squares, treated as attack with one die per square fallen, Kinetic damage. (5,3 vs. 5) no damage.
Azure: Move to H4, cast Sustaining Healing on self (3,3,+1) Vitality 4, Spirit 0.

Black has a clever idea, choosing to telekinetically yank Azure into the air. This doesn't prove as damaging as hoped, with Azure landing on their feet safely. The effects of the pull are felt however, and Azure dives behind the pillars and attempts to heal themselves. It's not super effective.

Round Ten

Initiative: Azure (3,6), Black (3,6). Tie, reroll. Azure (5,1), Black (2,1). Azure goes first.
Azure: Move to H6, Meditate (1,4) Spirit 1.
Black: Move to E1, cast Pulling Point on Azure to G6 (6,1,2,6,3) 3 damage, Spirit 0, +2 die to next attack, Azure Vitality 1.

Azure makes an attempt to restore some spirit, only to be cruelly dragged into the open.

Round Eleven

Initiative: Azure (1,1), Black (2,2). Tie, reroll. Azure (3,6), Black (3,2). Azure goes first.
Azure: Move to H8, cast Sustaining Healing on Self (5,2,+1) Vitality 3, Spirit 0.
Black: Move to C3, attack with Long Range (2,6,1,5+1 vs. 5,+10) failure, Azure Shielding Ward gone.

Azure continues desperately trying to recover their health, drip by drip. Black, on the other hand, keeps the pressure up. Firing an attack that has no chance of hitting, but destroying Azure's defenses in the process.

Round Twelve

Initiative: Azure (3,5), Black (6,2). Tie, reroll. Azure (4,5), Black (3,4). Azure goes first.
Azure: Move to F6, move to E5 and attack with Short Range (5,+2 vs. 2,5,+1, duplicate does not intercept) 1 damage, Black Vitality 5.
Black: Move to B3, attack with Long Range (2,1,+1 vs. 6,+1) failure.

Azure knows their situation is desperate, and decides that drastic action is called for. Azure charges Black, firing wildly. Black doges behind the fountain and fires back, missing by a wide margin.

Round Thirteen

Initiative: Azure (6,5), Black (6,6). Tie, reroll. Az (5,4), Bl (4,5). Reroll: Az (2,2), Bl (5,4). Bl goes first.
Black: Attack with Long Range (6,6,+1 vs. 6,+1) 1 damage, Azure Vitality 2.
Azure: Move to C3, make unarmed attack (2,1,6,6 vs. 5,6,+1) failure.

Black fires again and manages to graze Azure, before they decend on them, fists swinging... and miss utterly.

Round Fourteen

Initiative: Az (3,5), Bl (3,6), reroll. Az (2,4) Bl (2,1) Az first.
Az: Unarmed attack (6,6,3,3 vs. 3,2,+1, intercepted) dupe gone.
Bl: Meditate (1,5,1,6,5) Spirit 3.

Azure drives a fist into Black's gut, only for 'Black' to dissipate into nothing. The real Black uses the distraction to Prepare...

Round Fifteen

Initiative: Az (1,4) Bl (2,6) Bl first.
Bl: Cast Pulling Tear on Az to F3 (1,1,6,5,3) 3 damage Az Vitality -1.

And like that, the battle ends.

[Waterbrick Down]

Wow, that's a lot of work @Duvors  thanks for running it though. Sheesh Battle Mage is strong when fighting Martial Artist and Meditate essentially gives a free heal to the class (Eldritch Vigor), so we may want to adjust that. I think this does show how in an even fight, how Meditate can certainly extend a battle. On the other hand it was cool to see that many spells being flung around. One of my main concerns originally was that starting casters would only get 1-3 spell casts per mission and even then they weren't guaranteed to do anything. Compare that to another player who invested in weapon proficiencies or Skill, and it felt like a lot of the time casters would have the short end of the stick and generally an unfun time playing for the first few months.

20 hours ago, Zepher said:

That isn't actually the exact crux I'm thinking of - it's that if we leave things as they stand, there are two games you're playing. Either a party has a spellcaster with a healing spell, and they're playing Game A: full vitality and spirit returned after each combat, or they don't, and they're playing Game B: vitality is very precious, because it is extremely difficult to restore. In one, the results of each battle have no impact on the next. In the other, they very much do. The fact that I personally prefer Game B isn't really my point (though, it is the one I prefer, because why have a battle if there are no consequences what-so-ever?), but rather that those are wildly different games! Which one should this game be?

But, again, I've said my piece.

Makes sense, thanks for clarifying. I personally prefer Game B as well, but I'd also rather not let the character concept of a spellcaster not be attainable till a player has 5+ Spirit.

Ok, new thought. We get rid of the Meditate action, Spirit refreshes at the end of every combat, and then we introduce new 0 Spirit cost spell levels for example:

Alter Form - Suspicious Visage - Costs 0 Spirit - The Target may change their visual appearance while remaining still.
Enhanced Vision - Dim Sight - Costs 0 Spirit - Target may make a Lucky Perception Check to see in the dark with the aid of light
Entropic Mending - Theoretical Reversal - Costs 0 Spirit - Target may make a Lucky Engineering Check
Gain Entry - Cursory Knock - Costs 0 Spirit - Target may make a Lucky Athletic/Technology/Sleight of Hand Check to open a lock.
Gravimetric Propulsion - Propelled Positioning - Costs 0 Spirit - Target may make a lucky Acrobatics Check
Gravity Sink - Pulling Particle - Costs 0 Spirit - Reduces Target’s Velocity by 1
Healing Light - Abating Healing - Costs 0 Spirit - 1 Unstable Target
Illusory Clone - Irking Duplicate - Costs 0 Spirit - Duplicates disappear on the next turn
Mystic Binding - Sacrificial Hold - Costs 0 Spirit - 1 Target and Caster
Purging Font - Transferring Purge - Costs 0 Spirit - 1 Target, transfers condition to Caster
Quantum Transposition - Micro Transport - Costs 0 Spirit - Ally Target or Self is moved to a square up to the Target’s velocity away.
Restful Sleep - Contagious Slumber - Costs 0 Spirit - 1 Minute (Round of Combat), affects an equal number of allies.
Securing - Trick Lock - Costs 0 Spirit - Athletic/Technology/Sleight of Hand checks made to open an existing lock are Unlucky
Solar Flare - Startling Flare - Costs 0 Spirit - Adjacent Target Perception Checks are Unlucky for 1 Combat Round
Sonic Sweep - Annoying Frequency - Costs 0 Spirit - Adjacent Target Performance Checks are Unlucky for 1 Combat Round
Spirit Ally - Minor Familiar - Costs 0 Spirit - Stats: Vitality 1, Skill 0, Standard Kinetic Weapon
Tongues - Speak with Thought - Costs 0 Spirit - A message can be sent and replied to by one Target within sight. Only they can hear the message.
Transmute Matter - Composite Transmutation - Costs 1 Spirit - Object becomes a plastic composite
Velocity Amplification - Accelerated Slash - Costs 0 Spirit - Adjacent Target Athletic Checks are Unlucky for 1 Combat Round
Warding Bond - Sacrificial Ward - Costs 0 Spirit - For next Lucky attack

Additionally we shift some existing spells down 1 cost tier with the current 1 Spirit Costs becoming 0 and then we add a new 7 Spirit Cost version. For example:
Charm - Command Crowd - Costs 7 Spirit - All humanoid Targets that can directly see and hear the caster follow a single word command that is not directly harmful to themselves. Afterwards they know a spell has been cast.
Elemental Evocation - Elemental Barrage - Costs 7 Spirit - Hits 7 Unconnected squares
Obfuscate - Overwhelming Illusion - Costs 7 Spirit - 5 effects
Photonic Manipulation - Obscuring Blackhole - Costs 7 Spirit - An area is covered in light absorbing darkness (Ranged attacks and Perception skill checks fail)
Sickening Radiance - Destructive Dose - Costs 7 Spirit - Does 9 damage

By having 0 Spirit cost Spells, we allow casters to still feel relevant even when they don't have Spirit available, but the 0 cost spells aren't so overpowered as to create the current issue of each battle having no stakes in future battles.

19 hours ago, Duvors said:

That needs to be removed then, it's utterly superfluous.

Correct it does, adding to the new rule book, which is almost done by the way. 

[Classic_Spaceman]

2 hours ago, Waterbrick Down said:

introduce new 0 Spirit cost spell levels for example:

Would these 0 Spirit spells also be available to non-spellcasters? Some of these would be useful for Yelana, but since I do not intend to make her a magic-focused character, I do not want to spend Character Points on Spirit just to have some non-Spirit-consuming abilities. 
 

2 hours ago, Waterbrick Down said:

Quantum Transposition - Micro Transport - Costs 0 Spirit - Ally Target or Self is moved to a square up to the Target’s velocity away. 

Since a player can both move and cast a spell in a single turn, how would this differ from Dash when targeting self? 🤔