gedren_y

40516 Everyone Is Awesome

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1 hour ago, Fuppylodders said:

And I can throw that right back at you. 

You can, but the point would have missed you entirely. You’re not comparing like for like. No one is dismissing your situation, but you have been offensive and continue to dig in and make excuses for it. Please stop. 

1 hour ago, allanp said:

For what it's worth I wouldn't refer to a trans woman as a "he" when I know they might hear me. Regardless of if the taking of offence is justified or not, it's so easy to avoid causing offence that way that such a courtesy would be rude not to give.

You’re *so close* to getting it here. Yet then you follow it up with all the righteous justification. 

1 hour ago, Shiva said:

This pronouns thingy.

Not all languages have a he or she, him or hers. Finnish, has hän, hänen, etc.

https://translate.google.com/?hl=en&sl=en&tl=fi&text=she he her his&op=translate

Translating from finnish to english, goofs up google translate.

I do not care if one is a he, she, it or something else. I rather care about how that person is.

Fine, but that’s whataboutery. You then go on to suggesting ‘it’ as a pronoun and somehow that’s not supposed to be offensive? At a very basic level, call people what they ask you to. And, if in doubt, don’t make needless assumptions. 

Edited by williejm

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14 hours ago, Alexandrina said:

. No human being can choose what affects them and what doesn't.

I will officially stop here because of this statement.  And now I know where you are coming from and I don't feel a need to respond to every statement you have made, etc.  This statement perfectly sums up why it probably would be okay to lock this thread.  This is no longer about LGBTQ issues. 

If you honestly believe we have no control what affects us then there certainly are larger issues at hand.  This is not name-calling, bullying, etc.  This has nothing to do with LGBTQ issues, and is patently false. I know MANY, including my own trans son, who struggle with being misgendered, who would not agree with this.  This is the very epitome of deflection, and does not describe the LGBTQ people, friends, family members and loved ones I know or have worked with over the years.  

14 hours ago, Alexandrina said:

If you can't understand why a trans person might be upset when others wilfully ignore their name/gender -

Please re-read my comments.  I most certainly have said just the opposite  I DO understand.  I even agree with the frustration.  I literally have said something to that effect.  I have even shared tears with my own child over this very issue.  One just does not have the right to try and force another to accept their gender.  That is all I have said all along.  You can be pissed, angry, etc. and have every right to.  I would.  You can distance yourself, etc. from such people.  You just can't force them to your worldview.  

14 hours ago, Alexandrina said:

You say that, yet in this thread you've already said that trans people have psychosis

I did not.  Your words not mine.  Please re-read.  I made a comparison.  Did not state what you accuse me of.  This distinction is very important.  

14 hours ago, Lyichir said:

Why can't you just accept that respecting people's pronouns is just basic human decency, and that holding people to the expectation of that is not "demanding" or any sort of gross overreach?

I perfectly accept that respecting people's pronouns is basic human decency.  If you read my statements you will see I have literally stated as such.  But I also accept the fact that not all people are decent.  And I cannot demand that they be so.  No robbing, sexual exploitation, etc. are also all elements of basic human decency.  But I know these will be violated.  If I go through life with the philosophy as @Alexandrina put forth "No human being can choose what affects them and what doesn't" then I have just made myself a target.  All social ills (and mis-sgendering IS a social ill) will throw me for a loop.  I would never DEMAND for someone to mis-gender someone else just like I would never DEMAND that I never be robbed again.  I can PREFER it.  But not demand.  One is flexible and shows malleability, is durable and can withstand force against it, the other is rigid, inflexible and prone to being easily broken.  

12 hours ago, Aanchir said:

this is your opportunity to show it. Show that you care about our feelings and well-being as individuals and fellow members of your community, not just about the potential we show as a "movement". Instead of nitpicking our pleas for respect and acceptance based on their tone, wording, logic, or rhetorical effectiveness

Please go back and read my comments on the previous pages and you can see my credentials and where I come from.  Don't need to repeat myself.  This comment shows you have not fully read what I have been saying so I feel no more need to respond here.  

**break**

This will be my last response on the issue.  My silence is not "defeat" or anything like that, I just honestly I don't think this has anything more to do with LGTBQ issues, but rather more about @Alexandrina's comment that no "human being can choose what affects them and what doesn't". Armed with this there is no end to the demands one can impose on other people.  And as I worker within the mental health community, the father of a trans son, and one who works with or addresses LGBTQ issues daily I can tell you this does not reflect the movement.  At least not the healthy aspects of it.  This is categorically something else altogether and provides background and context to a lot of the things spoken here, that have nothing to do with other members of the community.   

I will end with this.  I am a HUGE proponent of the LGBTQ community and I owe it to my son.  He has never demanded that his mother and I call him by his identified gender.  He has never demanded his grandparents to, who struggle with it as they are deeply religious and  carry some biases there.  He is always respectful, understanding, silent but strong in his conveying his beliefs and ideas on the issue.  He certainly does not espouse the idea of @Alexandrina, but understands that only HE can allow what affects him or not.  He has had to go through life being misgendered all the time, and continues to hold his head high and deals with this adversity like a champ.  He, and others like him, have made a convert out of me through their silent, civil, but strong and confident manner in which they conduct themselves.  

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38 minutes ago, williejm said:

You can, but the point would have missed you entirely. You’re not comparing like for like. No one is dismissing your situation, but you have been offensive and continue to dig in and make excuses for it. Please stop. 

Fine, but that’s whataboutery. You then go on to suggesting ‘it’ as a pronoun and somehow that’s not supposed to be offensive? At a very basic level, call people what they ask you to. And, if in doubt, don’t make needless assumptions. 

Bold response:

No, I wouldn't be missing the point at any stretch of the imagination. Danth has now posted a second link to which he has misunderstood the fundamentals of the content disproving his intended meaning. While I'm getting told to 'read a book', Itd be nice if others also read to a full understanding the things being aimed at us. 

Yes, my situation *IS* being dismissed. Glossed over. Shoved to the side. Deemed irrelevant. Deemed a bigot view. Deemed idiotic. 

Its as close to like for like as it could possibly get. One day you might feel and believe to be a specific gender. The next month, you might have figured out you're a different one. The next month, you might feel you actually belong into an entirely different gender. 

I've been born to think differently. If I really wanted to, I guarantee I could find a different gender category that I fit into other than cisgender. But I couldn't care less. However, my mind now thinks a certain way. I explicitly can't change my thought process in the blink of an eye. If that truly was possible, rapists could be brainwashed to stop. Psychopaths could be brainwashed to be average (there's no normal nowadays). Cleptomaniacs could be told to stop stealing and they would in an instant. People who smoke could stop, because addiction is all in the mind. And controlled by the mind (which adversely affects the body over time). 

Not sure how in touch with the real world you are, but that shit doesn't happen. 

Underlined response:

Please link where I've been offensive? I mean actually offensive. Not simply 'not pandering to your demands instantly because you demand I do as you say or I'm instantly a bigot and plague on this world' kind of thing. 

Italics response:

You have to be joking.... You're literally coming across as the kind that finds offense in everything and anything, which just leads onto nerdforprez's point this is no longer about LGBTQIA+.

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13 minutes ago, nerdsforprez said:

And as I worker within the mental health community, the father of a trans son, and one who works with or addresses LGBTQ issues daily I can tell you this does not reflect the movement.

Why does your experience entitle you to be an authority on what does/does not reflect the "movement", and yet the experiences of trans people in this very thread are apparently something else? Aside from the fact that being trans is not a movement (I'm sure there are political action groups, but I'm not a part of them, I'm just a woman who happens to be trans) there's the fact that - as @Aanchir pointed out - you've devoted a lot of words over several comments to critiquing how trans people's comments do or do not serve the movement. It's great for your son that he is not affected by the words of others - but that does not mean every trans person has to be like him. We're allowed to voice our views, our frustrations, as individuals. Nothing I have ever said on this board or elsewhere online is as the spokesperson for a movement of any sort, and I'd imagine other trans people here (and other LGBTQ+ people too) are the same.

20 minutes ago, nerdsforprez said:

If I go through life with the philosophy as @Alexandrina put forth "No human being can choose what affects them and what doesn't" then I have just made myself a target

That isn't a philosophy. I know people who lie in bed at night in tears because of the comments directed towards them - I've even been there myself - and it's not a result of consciously choosing to let other people's words affect them. I'd go so far as to say that by saying that, you're veering dangerously close to excusing those who made the comments. As a trans woman - especially growing up at an age where trans representation was negligible, negative stereotypes were the norm, and most people didn't even know the word 'transgender' - I spent many many years grappling with my identity. Learning that it's alright to be who I am. When you see an out trans person, you're seeing someone who has had to work through fundamental parts of who they are for years. Note, I'm not trying to talk down to you, but merely explaining for the benefit of other readers, since not everybody has your experience of having a trans son. Apologies if I'm saying things you've already heard here.

The point I'm making is that our identities, at least early in our transition, can be fragile. That doesn't mean they're wrong, or not fully formed. I remember the first time I ever presented female in public, I was terrified. That doesn't mean I ever thought "I'm not really a woman", nor was it down to conforming to stereotypes (when I wear a skirt, it's because I like that skirt, not because a skirt is a 'feminine' item of clothing, for example). In order to get myself out of the door, I had to psych myself up. Why? Because it's a big deal. Openly presenting as your true gender - especially when you don't 'pass' - does make you a target. Those early days living as yourself are the culmination of years of self-doubt and mental anguish ultimately crystallising into a gender identity that is concordant with who you are. I put off my transition for eight years because of self-doubt, even after I'd come to the conclusion that I was definitely a trans woman. When I put effort into a personal presentation that openly reflects my identity, and someone still takes it upon themselves to call me "he", it's easy for that self-doubt to kick back in. I don't choose to let it happen. Oftentimes it doesn't affect me.

But sometimes it does. That's life.

38 minutes ago, nerdsforprez said:

He has had to go through life being misgendered all the time, and continues to hold his head high and deals with this adversity like a champ.  He, and others like him, have made a convert out of me through their silent, civil, but strong and confident manner in which they conduct themselves.  

This definitely feels like you're conflating two situations. I won't speak for any other trans people, but my conduct in real life and my conduct on a discussion board, when discussing gender issues, are not 100% equivalent. In fact, I dare say you'd describe me in a similar way to your son, if you knew me in person but not online. I've been misgendered regularly and I haven't ever let that visibly affect me. If someone misgenders me on the street, I ignore them. If someone misgenders me in a conversation, I might politely ask if they could call me "she" in future, and not push the issue further. I have never once got angry or upset at what somebody has said to me in person (not about trans issues - I have been visibly upset before, for entirely different and justifiable reasons which I won't go into here). And yet the passage I've just quoted immediately follows a sentence which you directly tagged me in, with the implication that he is the opposite of me. You've said you have no wish to continue, and I respect that, so if you don't answer I won't be offended. But I would love to know why you feel like I'm somehow poor at dealing with adversity?

(Apologies if that's not what you're trying to say, but the wording does suggest it)

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13 minutes ago, Fuppylodders said:I've been born to think differently. If I really wanted to, I guarantee I could find a different gender category that I fit into other than cisgender. But I couldn't care less. However, my mind now thinks a certain way. I explicitly can't change my thought process in the blink of an eye. If that truly was possible, rapists could be brainwashed to stop. Psychopaths could be brainwashed to be average (there's no normal nowadays). Cleptomaniacs could be told to stop stealing and they would in an instant. People who smoke could stop, because addiction is all in the mind. And controlled by the mind (which adversely affects the body over time). Underlined response:

 

Leaving aside all of the other stuff you have pulled in here, how exactly is someone ‘born to think differently’?

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20 minutes ago, Alexandrina said:

.

The point I'm making is that our identities, at least early in our transition, can be fragile. That doesn't mean they're wrong, or not fully formed. I remember the first time I ever presented female in public, I was terrified. That doesn't mean I ever thought "I'm not really a woman", nor was it down to conforming to stereotypes (when I wear a skirt, it's because I like that skirt, not because a skirt is a 'feminine' item of clothing, for example). In order to get myself out of the door, I had to psych myself up. Why? Because it's a big deal. Openly presenting as your true gender - especially when you don't 'pass' - does make you a target. Those early days living as yourself are the culmination of years of self-doubt and mental anguish ultimately crystallising into a gender identity that is concordant with who you are. I put off my transition for eight years because of self-doubt, even after I'd come to the conclusion that I was definitely a trans woman. When I put effort into a personal presentation that openly reflects my identity, and someone still takes it upon themselves to call me "he", it's easy for that self-doubt to kick back in. I don't choose to let it happen. Oftentimes it doesn't affect me........

 

.... I won't speak for any other trans people, but my conduct in real life and my conduct on a discussion board, when discussing gender issues, are not 100% equivalent. In fact, I dare say you'd describe me in a similar way to your son, if you knew me in person but not online. I've been misgendered regularly and I haven't ever let that visibly affect me. If someone misgenders me on the street, I ignore them. If someone misgenders me in a conversation, I might politely ask if they could call me "she" in future, and not push the issue further. I have never once got angry or upset at what somebody has said to me in person (not about trans issues - I have been visibly upset before, for entirely different and justifiable reasons which I won't go into here). And yet the passage I've just quoted immediately follows a sentence which you directly tagged me in, with the implication that he is the opposite of me. You've said you have no wish to continue, and I respect that, so if you don't answer I won't be offended. But I would love to know why you feel like I'm somehow poor at dealing with adversity?

(Apologies if that's not what you're trying to say, but the wording does suggest it)

I won't respond to rhetoric....but this does not appear to be such.  This sounds much like the experiences of my son and others I know.  I feel this is genuine, raw, and emotionally guttural.  

You likely could be right. If met in person we might find much more common ground.  What you write above feels much more like common ground to me and I wish you didn't have to deal with what you have to.   Sounds like you actually DO control, ALOT, what affects you and what does not (contrary to your statement), but sometimes allow your frustrations and hurt get the better of you.  Which only makes you human.  So do I.  I guess I need to reinterpret your statement as something to the effect of "humans can and do control what affects them day in and day out, but sometimes fail in that endeavor and let things get the better of them."  If this is more accurate then indeed, you and I have found a common ground.  I agree with this and you have my sympathy and understanding.  If this is indeed the case I would have no problem referring to you by your preferred gender/pronoun.    I hope I am not putting words in your mouth.  I do not mean to.  Based on what you said this is what I heard.  

 

 

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8 minutes ago, nerdsforprez said:

I won't respond to rhetoric....but this does not appear to be such.  This sounds much like the experiences of my son and others I know.  I feel this is genuine, raw, and emotionally guttural.  

You likely could be right. If met in person we might find much more common ground.  What you write above feels much more like common ground to me and I wish you didn't have to deal with what you have to.   Sounds like you actually DO control, ALOT, what affects you and what does not (contrary to your statement), but sometimes allow your frustrations and hurt get the better of you.  Which only makes you human.  So do I.  I guess I need to reinterpret your statement as something to the effect of "humans can and do control what affects them day in and day out, but sometimes fail in that endeavor and let things get the better of them."  If this is more accurate then indeed, you and I have found a common ground.  I agree with this and you have my sympathy and understanding.  If this is indeed the case I would have no problem referring to you by your preferred gender/pronoun.    I hope I am not putting words in your mouth.  I do not mean to.  Based on what you said this is what I heard.  

 

 

I think we're on the same page here. Yeah, sometimes I lash out - I think we all do - and sometimes if somebody really gets to me, I'll cry to myself when I'm alone in my bedroom at night, or eat too much takeaway pizza, or somehow indulge myself in the privacy of my own home to work through the emotions. The only thing I would quibble about - not a major thing - is that I see humans as often being able to control how they act on their feelings, but not so much how they feel. If I'm upset, I'm upset - even if I don't show it. But that's just technicalities, rather than the core point.

I'm glad we seem to have come to a middle ground of understanding, even if we might not agree on every detail. To me, that's the mark of a successful dialogue - exactly the sort of thing I want Lego to keep inspiring with this and other sets.

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51 minutes ago, williejm said:

Leaving aside all of the other stuff you have pulled in here, how exactly is someone ‘born to think differently’?

I cant control the level of emotions my mind feels. I don't control when my adrenaline kicks in (sure, that can *over time* be adjusted. I don't control what makes me sad. My mind does that through years and years of experiences and situations, my mind reacts automatically to things. Just as my mind figured these things out and attached feelings to them, gender is a construction defined by humans who created words to attach meanings and definitions to, which in turn, is attached to a feeling. Naturally, one ends up figuring out their own gender. Had society not played a part in my upbringing and therefore, swayed my mind on certain things to end up naturally accepting and attaching feelings and emotions to various things. Take a pair of twins. Give them the same upbringing. The same everything. They will still think differently on things. Why? Because our brains don't all think the same way right from birth. There is soooo much going on that affects our growth before we're even born but after conception. 

*edited in*

How can 2 siblings who grew up with the same parents who had the same upbringing before school or nursery, be soooo different in personalities? Because our minds are immensely complex and different things that can think differently from birth. Society swayed my mind from an early and impressionable age, and my mind being what it is, challenges everything I'm told. I'm an over thinker. It's who I am. I wish I wasn't, it affects a hell of a lot of things I do. That means I question *everything*, and therefore, require something to seriously beyond all reasonable doubt, change my mind on every aspect before I freely give up my previous stance. Sure, I can change my mind kn some aspects and therefore freely give up some of my stance to bring me closer to giving up all of my stance, but it's how I think. I literally can't change the way my brain perceives things. 

 

Our eyes see. The world's image is actually upside down once our eyes gather the image at the back of them. It is our brains that flip it the right way up again. From birth, we actually see upside down. But we're too young to ever remember seeing upside down.

 

A trial was done where people wore glasses that inverted what they saw. Over time, their mind ended up adapting to things being upside down like it was normal. 

They stopped wearing the glasses. Had to readjust all over again. Why couldn't they just do it instantly when they know what's what? 

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/education/2012/nov/12/improbable-research-seeing-upside-down

Edited by Fuppylodders

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58 minutes ago, Alexandrina said:

I'm glad we seem to have come to a middle ground of understanding, even if we might not agree on every detail. To me, that's the mark of a successful dialogue - exactly the sort of thing I want Lego to keep inspiring with this and other sets

Agreed.  :thumbup:

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Am I right in thinking that, whilst most if the hairpieces are new in these colours, none of the colours have not had a hairpiece made in them before? 

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16 hours ago, Alexandrina said:

I still remember being bowled over when I got Dobby's Release back in 2002, because it had beige bricks and brown bricks and bricks in a different shade of green! And even grey pieces that weren't just propellers and wheels.

I was a grown woman before I had a single piece in pink or purple! The modern palette is a dream.

 

16 hours ago, williejm said:

One of my first sets was the Lego zoo ( 258 ) in 1980 I think - looking back at it now, it’s both so blocky and such a limited palette. It’s a whole world away. But at the time I was amazed by the brick built animals and having some slope bricks! 

 

12 hours ago, Aanchir said:

Haha, I will never forget my own childhood excitement of getting the Halloween Bucket, and the promise on its front label of "New ORANGE Bricks!" I was lucky enough to have pink parts even earlier in my childhood (via both the Paradisa theme and the Large Pink Bucket), albeit not much useful variety.

Honestly, one of the things I'm most thankful about regarding the current palette isn't just how many different colors there are (since there are actually a lot fewer than in the early to mid 2000s, believe it or not), but rather that for the most part, they all tend to be used pretty widely!

By contrast, during my childhood, there were a number of colors in themes like Belville, Scala, Bionicle, and Clikits that were almost completely unheard of in more traditional System themes. Which, unfortunately, also meant that useful, non-theme-specific parts in those colors were often way too scarce to be genuinely useful.

Nowadays, even if you're one of those fans who completely ignores themes like Friends, Elves, and Dots for being "too girly' or not having traditional minifigures, you've probably still seen pretty much every pink, purple, pastel, or floral color from the current color palette in various sets from themes like Ninjago, Hidden Side, Monkie Kid, Minifigures, or Vidiyo — especially for minifigure parts and accessories in those themes.

And for that matter, Bright Bluish Green (Dark Turquoise/Teal) parts have become much, much more common since 2018 (when the color was brought back from retirement) than they had been at any point back in the late 90s and early 2000s (before it got retired in the first place)! :wub:

Oh, goodness yes. Here’s what I said in response to a comment on Facebook about this set the other day:

”When I first played with LEGO as a kid in the mid-‘70s, green was pretty much exclusive to baseplates and trees, and essentially all other bricks came in just five colors - red, yellow, blue, black, and white. Oh, and transparent. Gray and trans colors came along and helped me build many cherished memories of Classic Space before I entered my dark ages in the mid-‘80s, and then when I came back out in the early 2000s there were quite a few more colors, but still not like what we have now. As I type this I’m looking at the labels on three Creator buckets from 2002, all copies of 7837 Build and Create, proudly emblazoned “Limited Edition - Includes exclusive purple bricks”, and remembering how at the time just having bricks in a color like purple was a Big Deal, and of course now the LEGO palette is so much more broad-ranging than so many of us could ever have imagined back then. What a time to be alive, eh?

Of course with this set, the meaning and message is the overwhelmingly most important aspect, and I am delighted that this company whose products I cherish has come out with such a strong, unambiguous statement of support for LGBTQIA+ equality, but purely as a fan of the brick I can’t pretend I’m not going to be excited just to get some of these parts in these colors. Even (or especially) if the minifigures are all unprinted and the other parts mostly basic bricks and plates, the set is a treasure trove.”

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Okay, @Fuppylodders, so you can't instantly transform a way of thinking that you've held your whole life. That's fair, and I don't think anyone expects you to.

The thing is, this is a message board. This is a place where you have all the time in the world to think about who you're talking to, and what you want to say to them, and to choose your words carefully...or to choose no words at all, and simply not weigh in on a topic about which you have little experience. If you truly mean well, you will back off and listen when those whose experiences are closer to the issue are trying to inform you. If you aren't willing to do that...people are going to assume you don't mean well. You've made several long-winded posts in this thread where you expound at length about how gosh-golly CONFUSING this issue is to you and how MEAN trans people are for not accommodating your ignorance and lifelong prejudice, as if you expect that no one has ever shared such a blazing insight before.

It's not your old ingrained habits that make you bigoted. It's the way you defend those old ingrained habits simply because they are old ingrained habits, instead of demonstrating an ounce of humility in the matter. You're not being picked on because people expect you to learn something new. We're all learning something new, all the time. But it's a lot easier to learn when you're not constantly blustering about how you haven't learned yet.

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27 minutes ago, Karalora said:

Okay, @Fuppylodders, so you can't instantly transform a way of thinking that you've held your whole life. That's fair, and I don't think anyone expects you to.

The thing is, this is a message board. This is a place where you have all the time in the world to think about who you're talking to, and what you want to say to them, and to choose your words carefully...or to choose no words at all, and simply not weigh in on a topic about which you have little experience. If you truly mean well, you will back off and listen when those whose experiences are closer to the issue are trying to inform you. If you aren't willing to do that...people are going to assume you don't mean well. You've made several long-winded posts in this thread where you expound at length about how gosh-golly CONFUSING this issue is to you and how MEAN trans people are for not accommodating your ignorance and lifelong prejudice, as if you expect that no one has ever shared such a blazing insight before.

It's not your old ingrained habits that make you bigoted. It's the way you defend those old ingrained habits simply because they are old ingrained habits, instead of demonstrating an ounce of humility in the matter. You're not being picked on because people expect you to learn something new. We're all learning something new, all the time. But it's a lot easier to learn when you're not constantly blustering about how you haven't learned yet.

"that's fair and I don't think anyone expects you to". 

Firstly, if its a fair situation, then it's not unreasonable.

Secondly, I'm open to my mind being changed, and it has been, albeit slowly. I mean, I have no concern with gay/bi/transvestites/hermaphrodites, or many other people in that spectrum (not sure that's the right naming?) 

But, yes, they do expect me to. That's what all this is about, because I/we aren't. 

Bigot:

"a person who is obstinately or unreasonably attached to a belief, opinion, or faction, especially one who is prejudiced against or antagonistic towards a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular group.

I am not prejudiced in any stretched against non cisgender people. I dislike all people equally. I also distrust people equally. Takes me ages to like and trust someone regardless of gender (all of my trust issues stem from cisgender people, so there you go). 

I'm not antagonistic. I don't wake up feeling like it's bash LGBTQ day. I don't walk around thinking 'Oo they look trans, I'ma go call him a name'. I don't randomly bump into one and go 'oh excuse me Mr he she or whatever you are'. I don't say things just to get a reaction. 

So how is it I'm a bigot? Or, is it your own made up definition? Like people nowadays using the word 'sick' to mean awesome instead of vomit? (something that grinds on me everytime I hear it). 

 

41 minutes ago, Karalora said:

, @Fuppylodders

The thing is, this is a message board. This is a place where you have all the time in the world to think about who you're talking to, and what you want to say to them, and to choose your words carefully...or to choose no words at all, and simply not weigh in on a topic about which you have little experience. If you truly mean well, you will back off and listen when those whose experiences are closer to the issue are trying to inform you. If you aren't willing to do that...people are going to assume you don't mean well.

 

You've made several long-winded posts in this thread where you expound at length about how gosh-golly CONFUSING this issue is to you and how MEAN trans people are for not accommodating your ignorance and lifelong prejudice, as if you expect that no one has ever shared such a blazing insight before.

 

You telling me you went through your entire education without asking questions, putting forward hypothetical and real situations in order to ascertain a conclusion?? Yes there are times a teacher would ask one to 'shut up and listen!', but then you don't see how much I've listened because I'm not in a classroom with you. So you only see me asking the questions and hypothetical/real situations. 

So don't for one second assume everything is as you see it. 

 

Way to lower yourself to condescending. And you expect me to take you seriously and listen now? 

Good effort. 

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6 hours ago, Fuppylodders said:

And I can throw that right back at you. 

Ah, the old "I'm rubber you're glue defense."

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3 hours ago, Fuppylodders said:

I cant control the level of emotions my mind feels. I don't control when my adrenaline kicks in (sure, that can *over time* be adjusted. I don't control what makes me sad. 

 

3 hours ago, Alexandrina said:

The only thing I would quibble about - not a major thing - is that I see humans as often being able to control how they act on their feelings, but not so much how they feel. If I'm upset, I'm upset - even if I don't show it. But that's just technicalities, rather than the core point.

There at least appears to be some middle ground and agreeance here to be had too. For me, this is progress... 

 

@Danth

At least I'm trying. If that's all you can do, well... You keep at it. Maybe someday something you say will be relevant. 

Edited by Fuppylodders

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23 hours ago, nerdsforprez said:

We, as the LGBTQ community

Yeah this whole "clinical psychologist" who is part of the "LGBTQ community" shtick while advancing anti-LGBTQ talking points.

I'm just not sure I believe it, dawg.

Anyone can toss out unverifiable claims to authority on the internet. I really care more about the arguments. And yours have not been convincing. Especially when you say stuff like this:

21 hours ago, nerdsforprez said:

To plead "I am so done with you guys really" in the face of logic sets the movement back. 

This is some teen edgelord "LoGiC aNd ReAsOn" stuff right here. No dude, people are tired of the BS, bad faith, intentional ignorance, all out onslaught. There's only so much talking to a wall that people can take.

As a "clinical psychologist" you should know that. Oh wait:

5 hours ago, nerdsforprez said:

This will be my last response on the issue.  My silence is not "defeat" or anything like that

BWAHAHA! So you can leave the conversation when you're drained, but it's TOTALLY NOT A DEFEAT GUYS!

See, this is the kind of bad faith hypocrisy that people get tired of.

5 hours ago, nerdsforprez said:

Please go back and read my comments on the previous pages and you can see my credentials and where I come from.  Don't need to repeat myself.  This comment shows you have not fully read what I have been saying so I feel no more need to respond here.  

But you do keep repeating it. The trans kid you keep talking about, over and over, and how it's okay for people to misgender him and he's a good transgender person for letting people misgender him:

5 hours ago, nerdsforprez said:

If you honestly believe we have no control what affects us then there certainly are larger issues at hand.  This is not name-calling, bullying, etc.  This has nothing to do with LGBTQ issues, and is patently false. I know MANY, including my own trans son, who struggle with being misgendered, who would not agree with this.  This is the very epitome of deflection, and does not describe the LGBTQ people, friends, family members and loved ones I know or have worked with over the years. 

 

5 hours ago, nerdsforprez said:

I will end with this.  I am a HUGE proponent of the LGBTQ community and I owe it to my son.  He has never demanded that his mother and I call him by his identified gender.  He has never demanded his grandparents to, who struggle with it as they are deeply religious and  carry some biases there.  He is always respectful, understanding, silent but strong in his conveying his beliefs and ideas on the issue.  He certainly does not espouse the idea of @Alexandrina, but understands that only HE can allow what affects him or not.  He has had to go through life being misgendered all the time, and continues to hold his head high and deals with this adversity like a champ.  He, and others like him, have made a convert out of me through their silent, civil, but strong and confident manner in which they conduct themselves.  

That is frankly sick. That you don't stick up for your kid and you let people misgender him. And that you put all the onus on him to take it. And that by being a good little trans  -- essentially by not offending you by complaining too much -- he has "converted you".

One, you should stick up for your kid, dude.

Two, things are definitely not adding up...

Edited by danth

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@Fuppylodders, there is nothing wrong with asking questions. But there is something potentially wrong with making a big production out of asking questions, as you have been doing consistently in this thread. Here's the example that first caught my eye:

Quote

I'll state a big confusion I seem to be having which is making it really difficult to follow some things...
Example, a LGBTQ+ person says ' this transgender man......
Are they a man now who was cisgender female? Are they pre-op cisgender female turning into a man, or pre-op cisgender man turning into a female, or post op male turned into a female or post op female turned into male? Or Cisgender male who became female by gender and no operation to change biology? Or cisgender female who didn't have op to biologically become male but identifies as male? My mind has become so blurred trying to keep up, I literally can't seem to figure this out now.... I really don't want to cause offense with this question, but I genuinely am struggling to understand because what I identify as male is now something else.... and can literally be any cisgender at any point in time of their transition or non transition....

This is an awful lot of words just to express the sentiment: "I'm not sure when exactly the labels 'trans' and 'cis' apply." And anyone who wants to take you in good faith and help you out has to sift through all those words to locate the actual question so they can answer it. It amounts to demanding that people do extra work to answer what turns out to be a fairly simple question, and that's why it potentially comes across as insincere or even hostile.

And I will leave it there until I know whether you are ready to carry the conversation forward or not.

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50 minutes ago, Karalora said:

@Fuppylodders, there is nothing wrong with asking questions. But there is something potentially wrong with making a big production out of asking questions, as you have been doing consistently in this thread. Here's the example that first caught my eye:

This is an awful lot of words just to express the sentiment: "I'm not sure when exactly the labels 'trans' and 'cis' apply." And anyone who wants to take you in good faith and help you out has to sift through all those words to locate the actual question so they can answer it. It amounts to demanding that people do extra work to answer what turns out to be a fairly simple question, and that's why it potentially comes across as insincere or even hostile.

And I will leave it there until I know whether you are ready to carry the conversation forward or not.

Yeah that was the one that really rankled me too. To me it speaks to the obsessions that so many people who are transphobic have with how they must precisely define and pigeon-hole people, when it’s simply none-of-their-business. There are a million and one reasons, or sets of circumstances why someone might, or might not, follow certain routes surgically, hormonally, or otherwise - and simply wanting or needing details on this, in order to ‘categorise’ people or ‘justify’ what to call them is pretty offensive. 

Edited by williejm
Typo

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44 minutes ago, Karalora said:

@Fuppylodders, there is nothing wrong with asking questions. But there is something potentially wrong with making a big production out of asking questions, as you have been doing consistently in this thread. Here's the example that first caught my eye:

This is an awful lot of words just to express the sentiment: "I'm not sure when exactly the labels 'trans' and 'cis' apply." And anyone who wants to take you in good faith and help you out has to sift through all those words to locate the actual question so they can answer it. It amounts to demanding that people do extra work to answer what turns out to be a fairly simple question, and that's why it potentially comes across as insincere or even hostile.

And I will leave it there until I know whether you are ready to carry the conversation forward or not.

See, here's the thing with that. All anyone sees is words. Way too many convoluted unnecessary excessive amount of words. 

Well, welcome to my difficulty (disability doubtfully counts). I was late learning to talk. By a few years. I even went to speech therapy to try help progress my talking and get it started. Eventually I did. But I was a late starter, couldn't keep up with others around me, so didn't talk much outside of being a happy bubbly quiet kid. 

Fast forward to now. I struggle to put things short, clear and concise. I don't like talking but when I do, I can't figure out how to translate it from my mind to my mouth/fingers properly. I can't remember basic words. I feel I need to express all that my mind is thinking about that specific point so I feel someone understands me. 

There's probably a much quicker way of saying that too, but here we are. I don't make a thing of it, people think I'm just waffling. To you and everyone else, yeah that's all you see. To me, i don't know how else to do it. My brain literally can't. 

 

That's how my brain is wired and I can't change it. 

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5 minutes ago, williejm said:

Yeah that was the one that really rankled me too. To me it speaks to the obsessions that so many people who are transphobic have with how they must precisely define and pigeon-hole people, when it’s simply none-of-their-business. There are a million and one reasons, or sets of circumstances why someone might, or might not, follow certain routes surgically, hormonally, or otherwise - and simply wanting or needing details or terminology on this, in order to ‘categorise’ people or ‘justify’ what to call them is pretty offensive. 

I'm not trying to pigeon hole, I'm literally trying to understand what you are now so I know what to refer to you as. As someone in the community, understanding terms or gender, uh, positions(?) it comes easy to you. For me, i see a rapidly evolving community with an ever increasing amount of definitions I can't keep up with. If I'm going to learn, I want to know fully, and not assume. 

*edit*

I'm not trying to categorise or justify what to call people, I'm trying to understand. So I can break past my whatever it is and get with the times. If I understand something, my mind opens up like the pubs after lockdown. 

4 minutes ago, 2lazeetomakeaname said:

I also feel this way

 

:sweet:

Edited by Fuppylodders

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4 minutes ago, Fuppylodders said:

See, here's the thing with that. All anyone sees is words. Way too many convoluted unnecessary excessive amount of words. 

Well, welcome to my difficulty (disability doubtfully counts). I was late learning to talk. By a few years. I even went to speech therapy to try help progress my talking and get it started. Eventually I did. But I was a late starter, couldn't keep up with others around me, so didn't talk much outside of being a happy bubbly quiet kid. 

Fast forward to now. I struggle to put things short, clear and concise. I don't like talking but when I do, I can't figure out how to translate it from my mind to my mouth/fingers properly. I can't remember basic words. I feel I need to express all that my mind is thinking about that specific point so I feel someone understands me. 

There's probably a much quicker way of saying that too, but here we are. I don't make a thing of it, people think I'm just waffling. To you and everyone else, yeah that's all you see. To me, i don't know how else to do it. My brain literally can't. 

 

That's how my brain is wired and I can't change it. 

Sounds like you're crashing this whole party to make it about you. Maybe go start a thread in the off topic section about your issues.

There are many victims in the struggle for trans acceptance and rights, but YOU are not one of them. Don't try to make yourself out to be.

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Sorry, posts crossed. Again, I appreciate you think you are being dismissed or disregarded in this - but the reality for many/most LGBTQ+ people (and this is an especially toxic narrative at the moment in many places for trans people) is that we have to respond on a daily basis to a whole bunch of assumptions, jokes, questions and comments that cisgender straight people, just don’t have to. Undoubtedly that is much more difficult when it is intersectional and also has elements of race, ability, faith or anything else included. 
 

But it’s all pretty inappropriate, toxic, demeaning and demoralising. We are routinely boiled down to notions of sexual conduct, or genitalia. Strangers obsessively assume they have a right to know who has what genitals, for the most basic of rights like being  able to use a bathroom. That stuff is constant and demeaning and an ongoing challenge. 
 

Queer people don’t ‘come out’ once, they come out every day of the rest of their lives, having to decide what to say to who, when to mention what, and making all sorts of judgments. It’s exhausting. So please forgive us if we aren’t always the most patient or the most inclined to answer a barrage of questions - which we might well assume are not well-intentioned, or could be problematic.

 

Edited by williejm

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11 minutes ago, danth said:

Sounds like you're crashing this whole party to make it about you. Maybe go start a thread in the off topic section about your issues.

There are many victims in the struggle for trans acceptance and rights, but YOU are not one of them. Don't try to make yourself out to be.

Again, still waiting for you to say something relevant. 

Maybe today isn't the day for you. 

6 minutes ago, williejm said:

Sorry, posts crossed. Again, I appreciate you think you are being dismissed or disregarded in this - but the reality for many/most LGBTQ+ people (and this is an especially toxic narrative at the moment in many places for trans people) is that we have to respond on a daily basis to a whole bunch of assumptions, jokes, questions and comments that cisgender straight people, just don’t have to. Undoubtedly that is much more difficult when it is intersectional and also has elements of race, ability, faith or anything else included. 
 

But it’s all pretty inappropriate, toxic, demeaning and demoralising. We are routinely boiled down to notions of sexual conduct, or genitalia. Strangers obsessively assume they have a right to know who has what genitals, for the most basic of rights like being  able to use a bathroom. That stuff is constant and demeaning and an ongoing challenge. 
 

Queer people don’t ‘come out’ once, they come out every day of the rest of their lives, having to decide what to say to who, when to mention what, and making all sorts of judgments. It’s exhausting. So please forgive us if we aren’t always the most patient or the most inclined to answer a barrage of questions - which we might well assume are not well-intentioned, or could be problematic.

 

@danth See, that's helpful and relevant. And helps people in my position understand more. Learn a lesson from it, as I have. 

Thank you Williejm. 

Edited by Fuppylodders

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7 minutes ago, Fuppylodders said:

Again, still waiting for you to say something relevant. 

Maybe today isn't the day for you. 

@danth See, that's helpful and relevant. And helps people in my position understand more. Learn a lesson from it, as I have. 

Thank you Williejm. 

<Sigh>. Did you need to have that dig at someone voicing frustration? 

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