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LEGO Star Wars 2021 Set Discussion - READ FIRST POST!!!

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can someone please clarify what an accessory set is and why it is exciting? are we talking a pack of blasters, binoculars, thermal detonators, lightsaber bits etc? 

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39 minutes ago, THELEGOBATMAN said:

OOOH, that's actually amazing news! And both of them release together in January?

If so, I expect one to be more on the Light Side, and the other on the Dark Side.

No idea when in 2022 these will release...

3 minutes ago, LDigital said:

can someone please clarify what an accessory set is and why it is exciting? are we talking a pack of blasters, binoculars, thermal detonators, lightsaber bits etc? 

They are the blister packs that are exclusive to Lego.com or Lego Stores. Usually 3-4 figures and some small side build. Usually a figure or two in them are exclusive as well. Unknown-1.jpeg.695466d2df1c167eb239a473e29c002a.jpeg

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Does that mean Hasbro's attitude has changed? It's been a while since I was super-active in the Star Wars theme, but last I remember the consensus was that Lego got in trouble when they released the figure sets back in 2000, and they had an agreement with Hasbro not to do just-figure sets.

I'm excited if this is the case. Hopefully some good minifigures.

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28 minutes ago, Alexandrina said:

Does that mean Hasbro's attitude has changed? It's been a while since I was super-active in the Star Wars theme, but last I remember the consensus was that Lego got in trouble when they released the figure sets back in 2000, and they had an agreement with Hasbro not to do just-figure sets.

I'm excited if this is the case. Hopefully some good minifigures.

Something definitely had changed. For example Disney had an agreement with Hasbro which resulted in Lego not being able to make a CMF, yet we just got one this year. Same may apply to Star Wars.

But to be fair Accessory Sets are not considered a part of this agreement - they are not separate mini figures, like CMF ones. They are just basically smaller Battle Packs.

Edited by THELEGOBATMAN

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36 minutes ago, THELEGOBATMAN said:

Something definitely had changed. For example Disney had an agreement with Hasbro which resulted in Lego not being able to make a CMF, yet we just got one this year. Same may apply to Star Wars.

But to be fair Accessory Sets are not considered a part of this agreement - they are not separate mini figures, like CMF ones. They are just basically smaller Battle Packs.

As far as I seem to be able to locate the Hasbro license with Disney as it relates to Star Wars and Marvel was renewed in 2020.  It seems that Hasbro has the "master" license for these franchises.  Now in the terms of IP law, generally the master license gives Hasbro complete control of the particular product line.  This leads me to initially think that Lego has to license these franchises from Hasbro and not from Disney directly.  However, it more likely that Disney gave Hasbro the master license with a caveat that they had to license to Lego building toys (as this is a segment that Hasbro has no presence in), or the master license is limited only for the areas that Hasbro is in.  It all depends on the terms.  Now if the license says Hasbro get "action figures" that would be the reason that we haven't seen a CMF from the Star Wars theme, as a minifigure could be considered an action figure. But then that falls apart as we get figures in sets.  However sets are building toys and are labeled as that, but so are the CMF's.  I think that is the reason we were able to get the Marvel CMF.  Disney/Lego legal decided that an action figure was not a building toy and that a minifigure was a building toy.  after a convoluted analysis above.  What likely changed in the 2020 agreement with Hasbro was separating action figures from building toys, and now we can get CMF's and other products that were previously blocked by the Hasbro license.      

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31 minutes ago, MSY-MSP said:

 As far as I seem to be able to locate the Hasbro license with Disney as it relates to Star Wars and Marvel was renewed in 2020.  It seems that Hasbro has the "master" license for these franchises.  Now in the terms of IP law, generally the master license gives Hasbro complete control of the particular product line.  This leads me to initially think that Lego has to license these franchises from Hasbro and not from Disney directly.  However, it more likely that Disney gave Hasbro the master license with a caveat that they had to license to Lego building toys (as this is a segment that Hasbro has no presence in), or the master license is limited only for the areas that Hasbro is in.  It all depends on the terms.  Now if the license says Hasbro get "action figures" that would be the reason that we haven't seen a CMF from the Star Wars theme, as a minifigure could be considered an action figure. But then that falls apart as we get figures in sets.  However sets are building toys and are labeled as that, but so are the CMF's.  I think that is the reason we were able to get the Marvel CMF.  Disney/Lego legal decided that an action figure was not a building toy and that a minifigure was a building toy.  after a convoluted analysis above.  What likely changed in the 2020 agreement with Hasbro was separating action figures from building toys, and now we can get CMF's and other products that were previously blocked by the Hasbro license.      

I think I understand what you're saying but then why was Lego able to sell the Obi-Wan figure from 2019 last year. I'm not saying Lego is lying but they never actually said they couldn't make CMF's but people just theorized. 

IMO lego probably could always release CMF's but didn't see the point in selling a product for $5 that they could sell in a $30-$160 set and also no point in fighting with Hasbro. They have every right to sell whatever they want but the action figure theory just seems a little convoluted. 

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30 minutes ago, kidtheboss611 said:

I think I understand what you're saying but then why was Lego able to sell the Obi-Wan figure from 2019 last year. I'm not saying Lego is lying but they never actually said they couldn't make CMF's but people just theorized. 

From what I've heard, there had to be a build element to their product if they were going to sell it. Hence why 20th anniversary Obi-Wan poly could be sold because it had a buildable stand, but other individual figure polybags have been GWPs.

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16 hours ago, MSY-MSP said:

As far as I seem to be able to locate the Hasbro license with Disney as it relates to Star Wars and Marvel was renewed in 2020.  It seems that Hasbro has the "master" license for these franchises.  Now in the terms of IP law, generally the master license gives Hasbro complete control of the particular product line.  This leads me to initially think that Lego has to license these franchises from Hasbro and not from Disney directly.  However, it more likely that Disney gave Hasbro the master license with a caveat that they had to license to Lego building toys (as this is a segment that Hasbro has no presence in), or the master license is limited only for the areas that Hasbro is in.  It all depends on the terms.  Now if the license says Hasbro get "action figures" that would be the reason that we haven't seen a CMF from the Star Wars theme, as a minifigure could be considered an action figure. But then that falls apart as we get figures in sets.  However sets are building toys and are labeled as that, but so are the CMF's.  I think that is the reason we were able to get the Marvel CMF.  Disney/Lego legal decided that an action figure was not a building toy and that a minifigure was a building toy.  after a convoluted analysis above.  What likely changed in the 2020 agreement with Hasbro was separating action figures from building toys, and now we can get CMF's and other products that were previously blocked by the Hasbro license.      

This is great! I only wonder how other action figure companies (such as Hot Toys) play into this as they can create those as licensed figures alongside Hasbro. Maybe scale of the figures too? 

Either way, I hope something has changed and our CMF is one of the 4 for 2022!

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15 hours ago, kidtheboss611 said:

They have every right to sell whatever they want but the action figure theory just seems a little convoluted. 

It’s not a theory, they’ve confirmed it‘s actually part of the contract:

“Any time any toy company works with a licence partner, it’s through a contract,” he explains. “Simply put, the contract that we have with Lucasfilm and Disney is to develop construction toys. We can include minifigures in our construction sets, because that’s part of the play experience, but we do not have a licence to develop action figures.”

https://www.brickfanatics.com/lego-responds-to-rumours-over-star-wars-minifigure-licensing-rights/

The May the Fourth minifig polybags were exempt from this rule because they were promotional items, in case you‘re wondering. Same principle applies to books and other gear

Edited by BrickBob Studpants

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8 minutes ago, THELEGOBATMAN said:

Well, it turns out Boba Fett's Palace is the 100€ set (75326).

Nice! 100 will do the set decent justice. 

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2 hours ago, BrickBob Studpants said:

It’s not a theory, they’ve confirmed it‘s actually part of the contract:

“Any time any toy company works with a licence partner, it’s through a contract,” he explains. “Simply put, the contract that we have with Lucasfilm and Disney is to develop construction toys. We can include minifigures in our construction sets, because that’s part of the play experience, but we do not have a licence to develop action figures.”

https://www.brickfanatics.com/lego-responds-to-rumours-over-star-wars-minifigure-licensing-rights/

The May the Fourth minifig polybags were exempt from this rule because they were promotional items, in case you‘re wondering. Same principle applies to books and other gear

Honestly I wouldn't take Lego designer at their word. Corporate code and yada-yada. Considering the way they treated fans lately I would expect them to lie on this topic just cause. Let's face it minifigures sell sets, if they released SW CMF they would potentially lose on set sales. If if that's not the reason, they just don't want to sell us Sw Cmf.

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35 minutes ago, Duke27 said:

Do you guys think we will get Fortuna in this set? 

If it’s Book of Boba Fett based, probably not, unless they’re really trying to keep some of the other characters in that show under wraps. I’d imagine we’ll get three new figures along with possibly new versions of Boba Fett and Fennec Shand if Darth Vader’s Castle is anything to go off of. I could see them throwing in a new Gamorrean Guard.

39 minutes ago, benderisgreat said:

Considering the way they treated fans lately I would expect them to lie on this topic just cause.

The way they treated fans lately? What? Having a couple errors in the UCS Gunship promotion doesn’t mean that they’re mistreating fans or something like that.

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2 hours ago, benderisgreat said:

Honestly I wouldn't take Lego designer at their word. Corporate code and yada-yada.

You do realise they can‘t publicly lie about the contents of a contract, right? This is conspiracy theory nonsense :tongue:

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2 hours ago, Duke27 said:

Do you guys think we will get Fortuna in this set? 

Probably. There's no way Bib and Jabba don't appear in the show in some flashbacks. And putting him in the set creates the necessary conflict, as seen in the finale of Mando. I can see it being similar to the old Palace, except instead of Boushh and Chewy infiltrating it's Boba and Fennec. Put a Gamorrean guard or two, the Twi'Lek and we've got ourselves a nice lineup. I just don't see them including any spoilery characters in the set, and there definitely will be some.

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35 minutes ago, BrickBob Studpants said:

You do realise they can‘t publicly lie about the contents of a contract, right? This is conspiracy theory nonsense :tongue:

What law are you trying to cite there? It's illegal to fraudulently misrepresent the contents of a contract in an attempt to convince someone to sign it, but anybody can say anything they like about it to the general public, at least in the US. You're correct that the idea that they're intentionally lying to excuse not making a CMF series is completely nonsense, of course, but it's nonsense because it doesn't make any sense for them to do it, not because it would be illegal for them to.

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5 hours ago, BrickBob Studpants said:

 

The May the Fourth minifig polybags were exempt from this rule because they were promotional items, in case you‘re wondering. Same principle applies to books and other gear

Lego has directly sold star wars minifigure only poly bags for money  at retailers and have themselves sold the obi-wan 20th anniversary polybag on their own website. Hasbro is not some unsophisticated corporation that would be ignorant of these actions. They are a major competitor in toys and would have sued to stop it immediately. Let's not even get into the fact that you build both minifigures and buildable figures  yet it's the buildable figures that are more similar in size and usability of a actual Hasbro action figures.

if all it took was to add 5 small pieces for a stand than the usual one piece  stand for the obiwan polybag to be extra safe with the license we would have seen a star wars minifigure series by now. But we don't because they make more money putting a pitiful number of desirable figures in sets and they know it.

No one is forcing them to make the currently cheapest way to get darth vader in a $70 set. No one is forcing them to put moff gideon, fennec shand and one dark trooper in one $160 set that contains only 5 minifigures. No one is forcing them to sell only 4 clones in a $30 set. No one is  forcing them to include only 4 figures in battlepacks and raise prices far faster than inflation. This is all on them and it comes down to money

Edited by Bobbtom

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17 minutes ago, Kdapt-Preacher said:

What law are you trying to cite there? 

I'm not looking at it from a legal perspective. Lemme put it this way: would you publicly, with your real name, lie about a contract the major company you're working for has made with another, even bigger corporation? Save way to keep one's job long-term, isn't it :tongue:

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3 hours ago, THELEGOBATMAN said:

Well, it turns out Boba Fett's Palace is the 100€ set (75326).

I'm more and more excited about this set. 

11 minutes ago, BrickBob Studpants said:

I'm not looking at it from a legal perspective. Lemme put it this way: would you publicly, with your real name, lie about a contract the major company you're working for has made with another, even bigger corporation? Save way to keep one's job long-term, isn't it :tongue:

There are NDA's that are signed that prevent people from stating anything publically. In my line of work, I'm not even in accounts/contracts, but I have to sign them due to the fact I see sensitive company data. Could be the case here, conceivably. 

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26 minutes ago, BrickBob Studpants said:

I'm not looking at it from a legal perspective. Lemme put it this way: would you publicly, with your real name, lie about a contract the major company you're working for has made with another, even bigger corporation? Save way to keep one's job long-term, isn't it :tongue:

The other guy is suggesting that it's a corporate-directed intentional PR move, not a rogue employee, so the idea that the individual spokesperson would get in trouble for it doesn't hold up. Again, you're right that that's not a realistic scenario, but they could do it. They aren't, but they could.

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6 minutes ago, Kdapt-Preacher said:

The other guy is suggesting that it's a corporate-directed intentional PR move, not a rogue employee, so the idea that the individual spokesperson would get in trouble for it doesn't hold up. Again, you're right that that's not a realistic scenario, but they could do it. They aren't, but they could.

This doesn't hold water either. If TLG sanctioned this, Disney would have to be in on it too, and Hasbro as well, since this concerns their exclusivity contract :tongue: As I've said before, this is on the same level as a conspiracy theory

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22 hours ago, kidtheboss611 said:

I think I understand what you're saying but then why was Lego able to sell the Obi-Wan figure from 2019 last year. I'm not saying Lego is lying but they never actually said they couldn't make CMF's but people just theorized. 

IMO lego probably could always release CMF's but didn't see the point in selling a product for $5 that they could sell in a $30-$160 set and also no point in fighting with Hasbro. They have every right to sell whatever they want but the action figure theory just seems a little convoluted. 

The Obi-wan had a stand, and I believe it was around the time this supposed contract renegotiation took place anyway. 

"The action figure theory is convoluted" It's something lego actually stated.... 

6 minutes ago, BrickBob Studpants said:

This doesn't hold water either. If TLG sanctioned this, Disney would have to be in on it too, and Hasbro as well, since this concerns their exclusivity contract :tongue: As I've said before, this is on the same level as a conspiracy theory

This is offensive to conspiracy theories. :laugh: (But actually, conspiracy theory is a blanket term.  it can be "lizard people control the government", but it can also be something real. Example: the USSR's genocides a few decades ago were once derided as conspiracy theories). This has literally no basis in anything. No motive on the spokeman's part, or the company's part, and potentially huge downsides for doing it, if true. If it was a lie, hasbro immediately would have said so (they wouldn't want fans of SW merch thinking it was their fault, because that could impact sales).

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This topic has been hashed and rehashed eleventy billion times on this forum and it never comes any closer to a conclusion. Fact is that no one on EB knows what the terms of any of these contracts are, rendering any discussion of it conjecture.

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7 hours ago, McMurder_them_softly said:

This is great! I only wonder how other action figure companies (such as Hot Toys) play into this as they can create those as licensed figures alongside Hasbro. Maybe scale of the figures too? 

Either way, I hope something has changed and our CMF is one of the 4 for 2022!

After doing a decent amount of research, instead of my day job, I think I have some answers on the various licenses that are out there for the Star Wars franchise and most likely for Marvel as well.

Hasbro has the license to make playsets and action figures up to 12" in height (i.e. 1/6 scale).  Hot Toys and Sideshow have the license to make their figures through a sublicense from Hasbro for their 1/6 figures (starting in 2004).  The 1/4 scale figures are direct licensed from Disney/Lucasfilm as best I can tell.  This is based on the agreement that Hasbro and Disney signed in 2013 right after the purchase of Lucasfilm.  It seems that in the 2020 agreement, Hasbro only got the exclusivity for figures from 2" to 12".  This leaves the door open for Lego to release figure only sets, and they have done that for Marvel already.  

I don't buy any argument that says Lego isn't releasing figure only sets, because they hate the fans, and want us all to buy really expensive sets to get specific figures.  From a business perspective this doesn't make sense.  The profit margin on a small minifigure sold for $4.99 is way higher than the profit margin on a larger set.  A minifigure costs probably at most $1.50 for Lego to make.  Giving a 333% markup for a CMF.  For lets say the light cruiser, which costs $159 comes with 5 minifigures (plus grogu) and 1336 pieces plus an instruction book, stickers, and cardboard packaging, the breakdown is as follows.  5 minifigures at $1.50 each, for a total of $7.50, take away 30 pieces for the minfigures leaves us with 1306 pieces, which i will round down to 1300 pieces.  I will assume that on average a average Lego part costs $0.04 to make (smaller ones are less bigger ones are much more), the total cost of the parts in this set is $52.  For the packaging and printing I am going to allocate $1.50 for.  Putting this all together and the set costs about $61.00 for Lego to produce.  Which results in a 260% markup on the set as a whole.  While there may be more gross profit from the set vs the CMF, the economies of scale will make the CMF a bigger profit source than a set.  You are going to sell way more CMF's than sets.  For example. assuming a set of 12 CMF's (and assuming no duplicate buys) costs Lego $18.00 to make and returns to the supply chain almost $60 and generates a profit of $42 over the cost to make.  A complete box of 36 CMF's costs $54 and returns to the supply chain $179 generates a profit of $125 over the cost to make. and if it were 31 figures (the closest to the cost of the cruiser without going over) would cost $ 46.50 to make and return $154.69 to the supply chain and generate a profit of $108.19.  in contrast the cruiser costs $61.00 to make returns $159 to the supply chain and generates $98 in profit of the cost to make.  So it nets less profit over the minifigure and also will have much lower sales volumes.  So from a business perspective if Lego could sell a CMF series (and they know it would sell like hotcakes) for the Star Wars line, they would.   

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