MOC: GWR 4900 Class 5972 Olton Hall (4-Wide)

[CMF-1138]

EDIT: Since this has become something of a "work in progress" thread, I have gone back and streamlined some of my posts by hiding additional views behind spoiler tags. Feel free to dig in if you would like to see my design process.

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Here is my 4-wide rendition of the GWR 4900 Class 5972 Olton Hall (which I hear was also featured in a very popular series of motion pictures).

Like my Santa Fe Super Chief, this project was initially inspired by LEGO’s 4002016 50 Years on Track set. I made my initial design about 1.5 years ago, ordered parts, and built it. I was pretty happy with my little display model and thought it was a decent enough rendition of the Hogwarts Express.

Version 1.0 can be viewed in the spoiler tag below:

Spoiler

I recently opened the LDD file again and thought, “maybe I can tweak a few things.” One thing led to another, and suddenly I found myself trying to cram as much detail into it as I could.

Let me say up front that the revised version is absolutely a shelf queen. I have not built the new version in real bricks. It should be stable for display, but probably wouldn’t hold up to much handling. It should roll on straight track, but it cannot negotiate curves. But it should be buildable. It uses only legal building techniques, everything is securely fastened, and it uses only existing parts in existing colors.

In working on this redesign, I wanted to challenge myself to capture as many of the key characteristics of the prototype as I could. Among these are the sloped/tapered boiler, the uneven spacing of the drive wheels, and the overall shape and proportions. Technically, it is 5-wide at the cylinders, and probably 5.25-5.5 wide at the rods.

Additional views of Version 2.0 behind spoiler tag below:

Spoiler

There are a few areas that I’m not entirely satisfied with. Chief among these are the height of the running boards and the wheel arches. I couldn’t come up with a good way to get the running board beneath the wheel flanges without going to at least 5-wide. So it is sitting a little high. And the wheel arches are what they are, given the wheel spacing. (If anyone has any suggestions, I'd love to hear them -- the most creative I could get was to use the 33708 hot dog/sausage piece.) I could always punt and go with decals to provide the illusion of shape, but I wanted to do the best I could with a brick-built solution. The smokebox is a little blocky, but the “right” part (37352 Slope, Curved 1x2x1) that would match the rest of the boiler does not exist in black yet. Finally, there are some light gaps in the undercarriage resulting from the SNOT work, but I'm okay with those. Shortcomings aside, I'm pretty happy with what I was able to capture overall.

As always, thanks for reading, and I welcome any comments, critiques, or suggestions.

Edited April 10, 2021 by CMF-1138

[caiman0637]

Well done! 

[Feuer Zug]

Another finely constructed 4-wide. You have the proportions down perfectly for the scale.

[ColletArrow]

I have no words - she's a stunning display piece. Fantastic work!

Right, I'm off to Stud.io and Bricklink to design, order and build my own, because frankly I need this on my desk...

[Pdaitabird]

Nice work! I'm impressed that you were able to capture the tapered boiler at this scale!

[zephyr1934]

That's really good. The half arches over the wheels are too distracting for my eye, what would it look like with a pair of cheese bricks bracketing the arch instead of the 1x2 curved slope on one side? Beyond that, I can't imagine any pure lego solution that would improve on the design.

[Hod Carrier]

Wowser!! Now that's a thing of great beauty and just goes to show what is possible in 4-wide scale. Great proportions and detailing resulting in a very convincing build. 

I can see what you mean about the height of the running board. GWR locos always tended to have quite low running boards compared with other British designs. In profile your loco looks more like an LMS Class 5, but I'm not sure how you're going to come up with a solution without going wider. As to the splashers, I did also wonder about cheese slopes as @zephyr1934 suggested, but I'm not sure that they wouldn't be too angular and equally visually jarring. I guess the only way to find out is to mock it up and run another render and see if it looks better to you. But speaking for myself, I think the current design looks OK and could end up being the least worst solution.

[CMF-1138]

Thank you, all, for the kind comments!

On 4/3/2021 at 7:21 AM, zephyr1934 said:

That's really good. The half arches over the wheels are too distracting for my eye, what would it look like with a pair of cheese bricks bracketing the arch instead of the 1x2 curved slope on one side? Beyond that, I can't imagine any pure lego solution that would improve on the design.

I wholeheartedly agree. The arches look incomplete and distract from the rest of the model. They are definitely a challenge at this scale for a few reasons. The front drivers (3 studs wide) are mounted in a standard technic brick, so centering a 3-wide arch becomes difficult. Given the spacing between the drivers, there are only 7 studs of space for two arches. Finally, as built, there is nothing beneath the running board to provide support. But challenges are meant to be overcome, right?

Some design ideas behind the spoiler tag below:

Spoiler

First, I think it actually looks more refined overall without the arches:

This actually leaves some room to play with:

The ingot piece (99563) might be a better shape, but it doesn't come in dark red. I recolored the running boards to match (as I thought black arches on dark red running boards looked awkward). In some photos of the prototype, the tops of the running boards and arches are black and the sides are red, so I suppose the outer edge of these pieces could be painted or have decals applied:

Finally, using the ingots allows for a name board (which could also be used with the flat running board, but does not fit over the 1x2 tile):

At this point, I think I tend to favor the last two over my original design. I think the fourth one (black running boards, ingots for arches, and the name board) is my favorite, but I am a little concerned that the black makes the already high running boards seem even higher.

Anyway, thanks for helping me think through this. I'd be happy to hear any other thoughts or suggestions.

On 4/3/2021 at 1:10 PM, Hod Carrier said:

Wowser!! Now that's a thing of great beauty and just goes to show what is possible in 4-wide scale. Great proportions and detailing resulting in a very convincing build. 

I can see what you mean about the height of the running board. GWR locos always tended to have quite low running boards compared with other British designs. In profile your loco looks more like an LMS Class 5, but I'm not sure how you're going to come up with a solution without going wider. As to the splashers, I did also wonder about cheese slopes as @zephyr1934 suggested, but I'm not sure that they wouldn't be too angular and equally visually jarring. I guess the only way to find out is to mock it up and run another render and see if it looks better to you. But speaking for myself, I think the current design looks OK and could end up being the least worst solution.

Thanks, @Hod Carrier! I guess I could add flangeless regular size train wheels to the parts wishlist. I think you're probably right that the shape of the cheese slopes might make it too angular, particularly when built into a 3-wide arch.

Edited April 10, 2021 by CMF-1138

[Hod Carrier]

9 minutes ago, CMF-1138 said:

I guess I could add flangeless regular size train wheels to the parts wishlist.

I suppose I can confess to having one slightly cheeky thought that will have the LEGO purist shrieking for my head, which was to file off part of the flange to allow the running board to be dropped by 1 plate. 

[CMF-1138]

2 minutes ago, Hod Carrier said:

I suppose I can confess to having one slightly cheeky thought that will have the LEGO purist shrieking for my head, which was to file off part of the flange to allow the running board to be dropped by 1 plate. 

I have no words. 

Modifying the plates and tiles that make up the running boards so they fit down over the flanges, on the other hand...

In all seriousness, I think the 4002016 Emerald Night build fits the driver flanges up inside of 2x3 tiles for its wheel arches (which are built at 3-wide). I couldn't get it to work in LDD or Studio, but I haven't tried it with actual bricks. In any event, that would still require going 5-wide with the running boards, which looks OK in the abstract, but doesn't seem to fit the narrow look of the prototype.

[Hod Carrier]

2 minutes ago, CMF-1138 said:

I have no words. 

I know. My thought was very much the lazy cheats option. 

Sometimes things are just not possible, and especially so when you build at a smaller scale. Sometimes you just have to be happy with the least worst option and the one that looks best to your eyes. Given the building medium we have chosen and the ambition of the prototype I can't imagine anyone would be disappointed with any of the versions of your build.

[zephyr1934]

Looking good, the ingots are a great idea and it is neat to see the evolution. I can totally see the cheese slopes being too jarring too. What about a 1x2 curved sloped on the front (supported from behind with a 1x4 plate) and a 1x2 cheese slope on the back of each arch?

[Shiva]

That is a nice looking 4 wide!

[CMF-1138]

On 4/4/2021 at 10:06 AM, Shiva said:

That is a nice looking 4 wide!

Thanks!

On 4/4/2021 at 8:03 AM, zephyr1934 said:

Looking good, the ingots are a great idea and it is neat to see the evolution. I can totally see the cheese slopes being too jarring too. What about a 1x2 curved sloped on the front (supported from behind with a 1x4 plate) and a 1x2 cheese slope on the back of each arch?

I went back and mocked up your two suggestions for the splashers, and let me say that they both look better than my original design (see below). I think I was getting hung up on centering them over the wheels, it can be done with some design alterations. And using the 1x2 cheese slope to make the connection never occurred to me. 

(Pardon the jarring colors. I often work in odd colors when redesigning something.)

I made some significant revisions to my design over the weekend and am pretty happy with where it's at now. I want to give it some time to stew before looking at it again to see if there is anything else that stands out. Stay tuned...

Edited April 5, 2021 by CMF-1138

[Pdaitabird]

Those look like some good alternatives. My preference would be the one in the middle. But the model already looks great as-is!

[zephyr1934]

19 hours ago, CMF-1138 said:

I went back and mocked up your two suggestions for the splashers, and let me say that they both look better than my original design (see below). I think I was getting hung up on centering them over the wheels, it can be done with some design alterations. And using the 1x2 cheese slope to make the connection never occurred to me. 

Excellent! With so many builders on the forum you're bound to get novel ideas when you post a work. It is always amazing what other people spot on a MOC that you just spent a few weeks/months working on. I think the EN had all cheese slopes for it's splashers so that would be prototypical (grin).

[Vilhelm22]

Saw this almost immediately after you posted but didn't comment as I was out and on my phone.  Anyway, excellently executed, and instantly recognisable MOC!  I'll be honest, I'm not interested in making 4-wide MOCs myself, but ones like these show me exactly why people are, and I can understand exactly why some would be....  Congratulations on a brilliant piece of work!

[CMF-1138]

On 4/5/2021 at 12:14 PM, Pdaitabird said:

Those look like some good alternatives. My preference would be the one in the middle. But the model already looks great as-is!

Thanks! I agree -- the middle one with the two cheese slopes is my preference among those three (although the revision I am currently working on takes a slightly different approach).

On 4/6/2021 at 7:36 AM, zephyr1934 said:

Excellent! With so many builders on the forum you're bound to get novel ideas when you post a work. It is always amazing what other people spot on a MOC that you just spent a few weeks/months working on. I think the EN had all cheese slopes for it's splashers so that would be prototypical (grin).

Indeed! There are so many talented builders here that it can be a little intimidating, but sharing these designs and getting feedback has really helped me open up my mind in terms of what is possible and how I am approaching design challenges. And you are right on the EN -- ironically, the cheese slope splashers were one of the first things I swapped out!

On 4/6/2021 at 7:48 AM, Vilhelm22 said:

Saw this almost immediately after you posted but didn't comment as I was out and on my phone.  Anyway, excellently executed, and instantly recognisable MOC!  I'll be honest, I'm not interested in making 4-wide MOCs myself, but ones like these show me exactly why people are, and I can understand exactly why some would be....  Congratulations on a brilliant piece of work!

Thanks for kind comments! I know that 4-wide is not everyone's cup of tea, especially if it is only going to be a display model. I will say that it takes up a lot less room than my 7-wide. I am finding this project to be a remarkably fun challenge.

Edited April 8, 2021 by CMF-1138

[kondor7001]

I am just getting into the hobby. But coming up to speed rapidly.  I discovered your work just the other day.  Really nice.

 

[CMF-1138]

So I would say there is a non-zero chance that I have become more than a little obsessed with this project, but I'm pretty chuffed with the result and the design journey that this has taken me on. I think Version 3 is now ready for prime time.

 

Here is a summary of the significant changes from my initial post (Version 2):

• Decided to go with vehicle mudguards for the splashers, allowing the running board to be lowered by one plate.
• Angled the cylinders outward, resulting in a more prototypical angle for the steam pipes.
• Reshaped and narrowed the firebox so it was less prominent and did not obscure the front of the cab.
• Shortened length of the firebox by one stud, improving proportions and bringing the cab forward over the rear drivers.
• Lengthened the smoke box by one stud.
• Reworked the inner structure to simplify build and improve stability.
• Redesigned the tender.

At this point, I have the locomotive about 80% built in red (mainly reusing parts from my original build). I made a few minor modifications going from digital to real bricks, but the whole thing feels pretty stable once it is built up.

Using cheese slopes for the boiler, it can be fully brick-built and I think it stands on its own without decals. It would, however, benefit from a small black decal above the rear driver to continue the running board back to the cab, as well as a dark red micro-stripe along the length of the running board.

Additional views behind spoiler tag below:

Spoiler

The boiler could built using curved slopes (as shown in red below), but would require dark red decals, which might be difficult to color match. Alternatively, black decals could be used on the sides and front of the smoke box, but this could look really shabby if not applied perfectly. I also have some concern about color variation if I were to go this route because dark red 1x4 curved slopes were last used in a 2014 set.

In a red color scheme, parts exist to carry the rounded shape of the boiler all the way forward if I use a red decal to define the back of the smoke box on each side, which should be easier to color match than dark red. Again, it would also benefit from a black decal to continue the running board back to the cab and a red micro-stripe along the length of running board. (Note that for these renderings, I ignored Studio’s collision warnings to simulate the red decal on the boiler.)

Although I prefer the curved boiler shape, I think that dark red is probably more consistent with the prototype, and the cheese slopes aren’t bad. In addition, I prefer not having to rely on decals if possible. I am inclined to try building it in both colors and both boiler variations and then deciding once I can see it in real bricks. One of the advantages of 4-wide, I suppose, is that this approach is less likely to be cost-prohibitive.

Compared to the GWR drawings, everything from the running board up is still sitting about one plate too high. (Note that I have modeled a 4,000 gallon tender rather than the 3,500 gallon tender shown in the drawing, so ignore the height difference there.) The boiler and cab could be lowered by a plate fairly easily, and the resulting profile is remarkably close to the drawings, but I think this would only draw additional attention to the fact that the running board is still too high. To my eye, it just looks more balanced with the extra plate of elevation above the running board to visually offset the extra height required by the wheel flanges.

Source for overlay drawing: The Great Western Archive

And finally, one last rendering to give you a sense of scale.

As always, thanks for reading, and I welcome any comments, critiques, or suggestions.

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On 4/8/2021 at 9:16 AM, kondor7001 said:

I am just getting into the hobby. But coming up to speed rapidly.  I discovered your work just the other day.  Really nice.

 

Thank you!

Edited April 10, 2021 by CMF-1138

[Pdaitabird]

The revisions look really good! Using vehicle mudguards for splashers was a brilliant idea. I like the comparison shot - it gives a sense of just how horribly out of proportion the official set is. Nice work!

[zephyr1934]

5 hours ago, CMF-1138 said:

So I would say there is a non-zero chance that I have become more than a little obsessed with this project

Nonsense! (chuckles quietly)

But in all seriousness, that looks amazing. The vehicle mudguards are brilliant. The consideration of all of the permutations very thorough, and the comparison shots impressive. So really you just shrunk the HP set in two dimensions to get it proportionally correct, right?

 

5 hours ago, CMF-1138 said:

I prefer not having to rely on decals if possible. I am inclined to try building it in both colors and both boiler variations and then deciding once I can see it in real bricks. One of the advantages of 4-wide, I suppose, is that this approach is less likely to be cost-prohibitive.

Indeed, spot on

[CMF-1138]

On 4/10/2021 at 3:21 AM, Pdaitabird said:

The revisions look really good! Using vehicle mudguards for splashers was a brilliant idea. I like the comparison shot - it gives a sense of just how horribly out of proportion the official set is. Nice work!

On 4/10/2021 at 7:13 AM, zephyr1934 said:

But in all seriousness, that looks amazing. The vehicle mudguards are brilliant. The consideration of all of the permutations very thorough, and the comparison shots impressive. So really you just shrunk the HP set in two dimensions to get it proportionally correct, right?

Thank you, both. The shape of the cheese slope splashers suggested by @zephyr1934 reminded me of the mudguards from the classic space sets of my youth. They haven't appeared in any sets for a while, but they are reasonably available in both black and red.

Of course, I clearly can't leave well enough alone. The more I look at it, the more I feel like the extra plate of elevation takes away from the "long and low" look of the prototype. Having tinkered with it some more, I think lowering the boiler and cab is the better choice, especially if a dark red micro-stripe is applied along the length of the running board to pull it down visually. Again, this will probably come down to seeing how it looks in real bricks. This would likely preclude using curved slopes for the smoke box, so it might make that decision easier.

Additional views hidden behind spoiler tag below to streamline the thread:

Spoiler

And a comparison to the GWR drawings:

Source for the overlay drawing: The Great Western Archive

Edited April 12, 2021 by CMF-1138

[Hod Carrier]

Your hard work and diligence in getting the details right has paid off handsomely. This is an incredible build made all the more impressive by being sub-scale size. I look forward to seeing the completed model.

[CMF-1138]

Thanks, @Hod Carrier! I have the latest revision about 90% mocked up and am liking the proportions, so I am going to start figuring out what parts I need to get on order to get it built up.