TLG could easily give us more train models, it's just that we don't feature in their marketing strategy

[Tube Map Central]

Didn't want to destroy a certain other thread completely. So, here goes, new thread.

A simple logical analysis of TLG teaming up with Bricklink to bring trashed Ideas models to us raised all sorts of issues with me.

First, the claimed teaming up with Bricklink is a logistical fiction, Bricklink is a clearing house for private Lego parts sellers. Bricklink itself does not carry inventory, sort bricks, or distribute parts. This pairing up would make as much sense as TLG pairing up with eBay.

Second, the fact that Bricklink offered something like this in the past is irrelevant. That was an old private initiative, Bricklink is now owned by TLG.

Third, the eventual claim in the other thread was that this would be the equivalent of a Bricks & Pieces order that happened to make a set, minus printed instructions and (presumably) box.

My issue here is that we are long being told that trains are too niche (15,000 votes, 4th place in Ideas poll) and so any wider range of train-related sets created by TLG would not be profitable enough. And yet, here is TLG doing something - parting out complicated small-run sets - that we are continually being told is too complex/labour-intensive/unprofitable for them to do. Especially Studgate, which looks like it will be quite hard work on that count.

So what to conclude from this? I assert, and none of the TLG cheerleaders can refute this, that something fishy is happening from a marketing perspective. The link with Bricklink is logistically bogus, and these sets will have to have TLG design department QA. If not, who do I get the refund from if the set is not up to TLG design standards (a real issue if some of these Ideas projects have never been built for real)? I suggest that TLG is merely trying to distance itself conceptually, i.e. from a branding perspective, from this activity. It is perfectly capable of creating many small-run sets sufficiently profitably, but this is not compatible with its core marketing strategy. 

This is why clone manufacturers can do this (complete with instructions and box) but TLG do not. TLG could do it sufficiently profitably, but their instinctive control-freakery means that they do not want to. Even a supposedly democratic activity like the 'Bricklink' initiative has been turned into an exercise in marketing-led rationing. There were two stations that got to 10,000, but we have only been offered one. Might the other interfere with their Creator Expert Modular Building brand? We cannot have that!

Bottom line, we do not have more train-related sets because TLG marketing does not want us to have more train-related sets. Wrong image, wrong fans.

In immediate practical terms, for the next TLG passenger train set, I expect to be able to order, direct from TLG, complete extra individual coaches from a simple menu structure with a basic single click, because that seems equivalent to what is happening here. We will know that all the relevant parts will have availability, because they are part of a production set, and we know that basic small-run parts compilations are profitable enough because that is happening right now.

Edited March 19, 2021 by Tube Map Central
Typo

[Stuartn]

I believe that this initiative with brick link is conceived to work around the issue that trains and other sets are a niche. A regular run of sets would encounter many issues, even with a small amount of sets. There are the distribution costs and costs associated with marketing to resellers like shops and online stores. By marketing through brick link, which is online only, these costs will be averted, and these sets probably won’t have broader appeal to others, so by working with bricklink they target only the subset of buyers without the costs of selling to all consumers. Most costs would probably be in this marketing and distribution, rather than production and assembly which will probably remain automated. This means of distribution may also incur less costs associated with compensating the designer which could be more in a mainstream set, but still avoiding design costs.

Does this mean they cannot make more train sets, no, they could, even if it is a bricklink set - a train set is a train set I suppose.

[Feuer Zug]

The premise behind the Bricklink release of 13 sets is to let people vote with their wallet. LEGO Ideas has all of these designs reaching the mystical 10,000 milestone. LEGO reviewed them and elected to pass on producing them as a set for their own undisclosed reasons. LEGO seems to understand there may still be a profit in the concepts from Ideas and is willing to test the waters. By opening them up to crowd funding sets, they can immediately gauge the interest level in each one, including trains related options. People will subscribe to buy the sets they like. The first 13 to get 3,000 people pledging funds to it get built. Money talks and if Traingate gets into the build stage, then it shows enough interest because people are committing money to it. There is minimal risk to LEGO as they will pre-sell the entire production run before they mold a single brick. It's all about the profits here, as you allude to. No printed instructions means less costs for them. The LEGO/Bricklink design team will be conducting a QA between now and May 31st to verify the set meets stability and suitability requirements (according to their announcement). LEGO is putting their name on the box and will be backing it with standards.

I dare say, it's not a fishy marketing ploy, but one that gives them the highest return for the least amount of work. It enables them to salvage work put into the Ideas program before people really become disenfranchised with it. The numbers of sets quarterly hitting the 10K mark is growing, and people are starting to feel left out by the decisions LEGO makes. I am glad they declined to throw a single rocket model in. Those were getting old in many ways. They rereleased the Saturn V. Mod it.

[caiman0637]

Yeah, this bothers me too. 

LEGO Executive: The fans want ideas sets. And we didn't pick them.

Assistant: Ooh, I know! We buy Bricklink, make a vote, and make Bricklink do all the grunt work!

LEGO Executive: Good job, let's do that. 

Assistant: *Makes Three Stooges sound*

[MAB]

6 hours ago, Tube Map Central said:

My issue here is that we are long being told that trains are too niche (15,000 votes, 4th place in Ideas poll) and so any wider range of train-related sets created by TLG would not be profitable enough. And yet, here is TLG doing something - parting out complicated small-run sets - that we are continually being told is too complex/labour-intensive/unprofitable for them to do. Especially Studgate, which looks like it will be quite hard work on that count.

What makes you think these are complicated to pick? The original designers need to redesign the sets based on a palette of parts that TLG say they can use. Those parts will go into hoppers and the inner bags will get put together then packed into boxes.

6 hours ago, Tube Map Central said:

The link with Bricklink is logistically bogus, and these sets will have to have TLG design department QA. If not, who do I get the refund from if the set is not up to TLG design standards (a real issue if some of these Ideas projects have never been built for real)? I suggest that TLG is merely trying to distance itself conceptually, i.e. from a branding perspective, from this activity.

You don't get a refund. There is no guarantee that you will enjoy any set or that it will meet certain design standards, whether a LEGO one or an ADP one.

6 hours ago, Tube Map Central said:

It is perfectly capable of creating many small-run sets sufficiently profitably, but this is not compatible with its core marketing strategy. 

It depends what you mean by profit. LEGO wants to be seen engaging with the AFOL community, both through its own sets and through BL. Getting AFOLs on board, thinking positively about the company as well as the product, would be profit to them. Of course, they do other small run sets too, such as comic con sets. Here, they profit in the word of mouth and advertising from such sets.

6 hours ago, Tube Map Central said:

Bottom line, we do not have more train-related sets because TLG marketing does not want us to have more train-related sets. Wrong image, wrong fans.

Would you be saying that if, for example, three train MOCs had made it to 10K on IDEAS and were involved in this ADP? The Polar Express and The Canadian train have recently made it to 10K. If rejected, those and any other trains may well go into another round of ADP, if non-licensed. It may be that as it is company branding, then The Canadian is licensed. However, if there were other popular non-licensed train MOCs, then it may be a route for them to be made.

47 minutes ago, caiman0637 said:

Yeah, this bothers me too. 

LEGO Executive: The fans want ideas sets. And we didn't pick them.

Assistant: Ooh, I know! We buy Bricklink, make a vote, and make Bricklink do all the grunt work!

LEGO Executive: Good job, let's do that. 

Assistant: *Makes Three Stooges sound*

It is unlikely that Bricklink are doing the real grunt work here - which last time was manually picking and packing them. They have said these will ship from Europe, and BL staff are in the USA. So it is unlikely that BL is doing that work this time.

 

Edited March 19, 2021 by MAB

[Alexandrina]

7 hours ago, Tube Map Central said:

I assert, and none of the TLG cheerleaders can refute this, that something fishy is happening from a marketing perspective

You have yet to give any compelling reason why this scheme is fishy marketing - and the frankly dismissive tone with which you mention "TLG cheerleaders" when referring to the vast majority of AFOL's for whom this initiative is a good idea makes me think that you have your mind set and won't listen to people explaining to you again how this all works. 

 

7 hours ago, Tube Map Central said:

In immediate practical terms, for the next TLG passenger train set, I expect to be able to order, direct from TLG, complete extra individual coaches from a simple menu structure with a basic single click, because that seems equivalent to what is happening here. 

If you a) don't expect instructions to be included and b) are prepared to wait for 3,000 others to purchase the same extra coaches before they are shipped - and if that threshold is never reached, you're prepared to not receive the coaches - in that case it would be equivalent. Since that doesn't appear to be what you mean, it's a false equivalence. You likely already know this, though. 

7 hours ago, Tube Map Central said:

First, the claimed teaming up with Bricklink is a logistical fiction

Not at all. You order the sets through Bricklink, Bricklink distributes the sets. Lego provide the parts. That they own Bricklink is immaterial - nobody would say it was a logistical fiction if Pepsi ran a promotion in collaboration with Walkers Crisps, even though Walkers are a PepsiCo subsidiary. 

7 hours ago, Tube Map Central said:

There were two stations that got to 10,000, but we have only been offered one.

Would you rather they split the Train Fan votes so neither set got to the threshold? 

7 hours ago, Tube Map Central said:

If not, who do I get the refund from if the set is not up to TLG design standards (a real issue if some of these Ideas projects have never been built for real)?

As I explained to you in the other thread, part of the design process that the designers have to complete is building the sets with physical bricks so they know the design works. You don't get refunds for a normal Lego set if the design is slightly flimsy, and this won't be any different. (If the bricks themselves were compromised, you probably could get a refund - but that's not especially likely to happen). 

7 hours ago, Tube Map Central said:

Bottom line, we do not have more train-related sets because TLG marketing does not want us to have more train-related sets. Wrong image, wrong fans.

There are train sets of some sort pretty much every year. It's a theme like any other - sometimes it's the vogue, sometimes it's not. It's the same thing with Castle, Pirate, etc. You have to remember that Lego is not a specialty train hobbyist company. They are a plastic brick company who make sets of all kinds, some of them trains.

On top of this, the last time Lego had lots of trains and coaches available on the retail market at the same time, they didn't sell. Since then Lego have nearly gone to the wall, rethought their business practices and bounced back. Is it any wonder that they're reluctant to repeat the actions of their worst years? 

Honestly, it feels to me like you have a bone to pick with Lego to the point that you're determined to hate them no matter what they do. You're complaining in your post about the lack of train sets while also complaining about the mechanism which is allowing you to get a new train set (and accusing Lego of dodgy marketing, and their fans on Eurobricks of being corporate stooges, while you do so). How can they win? What could Lego realistically do that would satisfy you? 

[LegoDW]

Lot of good discussion on this topic.  Cost is definitely an issue IMO. TLG might explore offering more sets without PU items and track.  Think the Harry Potter train sold well.  No reason this could not be extending to the city theme, motorized and non motorized sets.  Do hope any non motorized sets allow for the upgrade to motors thou!

[UltraViolet]

  I don't want to get too mired in this type of discussion, but I am sympathetic to the OP's feelings.  That said, anything which gets LEGO out of their corporate bunker mentality, however small, is most certainly progress.  Working for my own employer feels like working for a government agency - it's really hard to change anything that isn't effective policy, and my biggest obstacle every day is them.  I succeed in spite of them rather than because of them.  Do I still challenge them every time something is illogical or a double standard?  Sure.  Do I get a win most times?  No.  TLG is their own biggest enemy when it comes to nimbleness, and that lack of speed and flexibility I'm certain forces so much of the wall of secrecy which stifles community input, since otherwise they would always be beaten to market by the clone brands.

  My bigger problem with TLG than lack of train sets is in two areas.  Price has always been the deal breaker for me.  As a child, LEGO trains (among other things) were something for the rich, and mostly for the European market.  Even most simpler sets were well beyond the financial means of my family.  Now, as an AFOL, I would like better access to smaller incremental add-on sets which aren't all-in-one plug-and-play every time, and at a price which isn't costing you hundreds of dollars for redundant and over-priced PU hubs every time or for a non-motored model which isn't even designed to fit on track or work well even if it is.  If anything train-theme gets produced through the IDEAS/BrickLink platforms, and I'm interested enough, I'm more likely to use these as a starting point for a larger model anyway, as I personally can't stand the squashed proportions of 6-wide scale.

  The other thing that kills me is selection of parts.  We hear endlessly about the design and approval hoops any new part or color change have to go through to ever make it to market, and then if widely useful will require you to buy $100-plus dollar sets in a theme you have no interest in just to get one.  (Or pay a good portion of that price on BrickLink for just the part and nothing else, with TLG now profiting even from that too.)  Then we keep seeing ludicrously complicated one-purpose molds released which get barely used in a few sets and never appear again.  But ask for an existing production part in a new common color?  "Work within the existing stock".  A proposal for a simple and flexible-usage new mold design which may have been widely desired for years, if not decades, and would benefit a wide variety of themes?  "We'll decide what's best for the market by random chance, take at least two years to do it, involve half the staff in the company in the discussion, go as far as making production-grade test molds, and then cancel it before it escapes the veil of secrecy."

  As I just pointed out in the thread about the 3rd-party release of the FX Track system, the basic train motor has not seen any reimagination whatsoever since the 1980 variant of the 12-volt motor.  That's 40-plus years of a static design, simply introducing various minor annoyances about the control/wiring with each power system generation.  (6-wide trains are also a left-over artifact of the 4.5/12V system's goofy parallel track spacing geometry at switches.)  If there was any one thing that's been an obvious crying need in the LEGO Trains community, it's been a more flexible drive system which doesn't require you to hold an 'engineering degree' in Technic construction.  Is this design really so 'perfect' that it would get new mold tooling and 'guts' every generation, but remain fundamentally unchanged from the users' perspective and build structure?  Nearly every other type of motor produced over the years has featured vastly differing designs - dimensions, attachment points, gear ratios, etc, but the train motor has remained frozen in time.  Sometimes I feel lucky LEGO still produces trains at all.

[Hod Carrier]

37 minutes ago, LegoDW said:

Think the Harry Potter train sold well.  No reason this could not be extending to the city theme, motorized and non motorized sets.

There is a reason why that set sold well, and that’s because of its connection to a very popular franchise and its place in a line-up of sets within that franchise.

If anything, I feel that this is how LEGO trains will continue to go forward. As has been said already, LEGO are not a train maker and as such there is no need for them to be stocking ranges of track, rolling stock or accessories. Where trains continue to prosper it will be as a feature of other franchises or popular themes. I just don’t think that the same level of popularity can be expected for a City train or similar.

[LegoDW]

3 minutes ago, Hod Carrier said:

There is a reason why that set sold well, and that’s because of its connection to a very popular franchise and its place in a line-up of sets within that franchise.

If anything, I feel that this is how LEGO trains will continue to go forward. As has been said already, LEGO are not a train maker and as such there is no need for them to be stocking ranges of track, rolling stock or accessories. Where trains continue to prosper it will be as a feature of other franchises or popular themes. I just don’t think that the same level of popularity can be expected for a City train or similar.

Well.....hopefully another movie will become popular that features a good train for TLG to model.  :)

[MAB]

20 minutes ago, LegoDW said:

Well.....hopefully another movie will become popular that features a good train for TLG to model.  :)

They did one for Harry Potter, one for Toy Story, one for The Lone Ranger, one for Disney, they put one in Monster Fighters, and one in the Winter Village series. Even outside of traditional themes such as City where you might expect trains to appear, they come along so LEGO knows they are popular. I'm surprised there hasn't been one in Friends yet (they've done many cars, boats, buses, planes, etc), I guess they think trains are not of interest to girls.

 

[Tube Map Central]

2 hours ago, MAB said:

You don't get a refund. There is no guarantee that you will enjoy any set or that it will meet certain design standards, whether a LEGO one or an ADP one.

Under certain circumstances, yes you do

https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/regulation/consumer-rights-act-aKJYx8n5KiSl

2 hours ago, Alexandrina said:

Honestly, it feels to me like you have a bone to pick with Lego to the point that you're determined to hate them no matter what they do.

Stop trying to instill fake emotions and motives, you are not my counsellor, nor are you psychologically trained.

[icm]

Hmm, I just read that link and I don't think the particular case of "I don't like this Lego set because I just don't like it" is covered.  Missing parts, yes.  Defective parts, yes.  Not liking the subject of the model or the style of the build, no.

[Alexandrina]

35 minutes ago, Tube Map Central said:

Under certain circumstances, yes you do

https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/regulation/consumer-rights-act-aKJYx8n5KiSl

Nothing in there says that you have the right to a refund because you didn't enjoy the set - so long as the model is as advertised and the bricks aren't broken, you're out of luck.

35 minutes ago, Tube Map Central said:

Stop trying to instill fake emotions and motives, you are not my counsellor, nor are you psychologically trained.

True - not that you actually had any way of knowing that from my comments. In any case, I only said you come across as hating Lego - which you do, given that all your comments seem to be grousing at the company's business practices and their products, including often-contradictory complaints within the same comment. I'll ask again: what could Lego do that would satisfy you? I notice by the way that despite having a multitude of responses to your post, each addressing issues you had and explaining why things are the way they are, you've so far engaged with very little. I myself quoted and responded to six different specific points from your original comment, answering issues you've had, and the only part of my response you chose to engage with was a single off-the-cuff comment.

Furthermore, you keep talking about how logic dictates that what Lego are doing doesn't make sense, but as far as I'm aware you've not laid out the logic which tells you this. I for one don't see how Lego are being logically inconsistent.

[LegoDW]

4 hours ago, MAB said:

They did one for Harry Potter, one for Toy Story, one for The Lone Ranger, one for Disney, they put one in Monster Fighters, and one in the Winter Village series. Even outside of traditional themes such as City where you might expect trains to appear, they come along so LEGO knows they are popular. I'm surprised there hasn't been one in Friends yet (they've done many cars, boats, buses, planes, etc), I guess they think trains are not of interest to girls.

 

How about a Polar Express train!  That was a popular movie

[M_slug357]

Whew

This thread should be renamed "the salt mine", so we can see how far down it goes......

But, I gotta say, I do agree with @Tube Map Central 's notion that Trains' on the whole gets regularly snubbed. Also, its interesting to see the naysayers to that sentiment constantly tell the rest of us to just be content with the occasional bone that TLG decides to throw this way.

 

[Stuartn]

3 hours ago, M_slug357 said:

Whew

This thread should be renamed "the salt mine", so we can see how far down it goes......

But, I gotta say, I do agree with @Tube Map Central 's notion that Trains' on the whole gets regularly snubbed. Also, its interesting to see the naysayers to that sentiment constantly tell the rest of us to just be content with the occasional bone that TLG decides to throw this way.

 

 

There are currently five train sets available, being the city trains, crocodile locomotive, Disney train and Hogwarts express, as well as two track sets and the Christmas train is not long gone. TLG is also giving us the opportunity for an eighth train set with the ADP train station.

TLG will do what works for them, this Bricklink initiative will save a tonne of money by targeting the subset of AFOL train fans directly, hence avoiding marketing and distribution.

I think we should remember that TLG is doing right by it’s train fans by giving us this set, it is a good thing and the fact we are getting a set shouldn’t be an indicator of train fans being ignored.

Edited March 20, 2021 by Stuartn

[dtomsen]

4 hours ago, Stuartn said:

I think we should remember that TLG is doing right by it’s train fans by giving us this set, it is a good thing and the fact we are getting a set shouldn’t be an indicator of train fans being ignored.

I strongly disagree.

PF changed to the more limited and expensive PU, rechargeable batteries gone, standard train wheels changed for the worse, train windows gone, train doors gone, black 4 x 6 train tile with 1 stud gone. I could go on and on. More so if including the 9v era.

And train sets are not only a question of quantity but variety. Where are the train stations, steam engines, sheds, crossings, standalone wagons etc.?

TLG is not doing right by train builders or fans at all, just the casual set collector.

 An occasional and ever shrinking bone doesn't change much.

Edited March 20, 2021 by dtomsen

[1974]

No, train doors are actually back in other sets not belonging to the train range. TLG didn't have to revieve that mould, but they did

I very much doubt TLG are going to make any serious money on the BL program. Those 13 sets will only get produced in max 5000 untis. That's is peanuts compared to what TLG actaully do make serous money on

TLG could choose not to do this program. But they do and they do it for you

I really don't get all this moaning. Now, I'm no TLG apologist (in fact I think ALL modern LEGO is rubbish), but this is LEGO. The parts are out there, easy to obtain and you can actually build whatever you damn please. And if you don't have the MOC chops, they're loads of instructions to pick from

You cannot really do this with normal hobby trains, only with LEGO

It's never been easier and there have NEVER been such a vast range of LEGO train sets, parts, instructions and now thrid party parts available

So, stock up, build and send the occasional email to TLG stating you love for trains and get on with your life

Cheers,

Ole

[Hod Carrier]

@1974 I was about to say much the same thing but you beat me to it. 

1 hour ago, dtomsen said:

I strongly disagree.

PF changed to the more limited and expensive PU, rechargeable batteries gone, standard train wheels changed for the worse, train windows gone, train doors gone, black 4 x 6 train tile with 1 stud gone. I could go on and on. More so if including the 9v era.

And train sets are not only a question of quantity but variety. Where are the train stations, steam engines, sheds, crossings, standalone wagons etc.?

TLG is not doing right by train builders or fans at all, just the casual set collector.

 An occasional and ever shrinking bone doesn't change much.

I appreciate your view, but it's a bit bleak. I'm really not so sure that the picture is as black as you paint it. I do agree that some of the train-specific parts have been changed and not necessarily for the better (wheels, couplers, etc) and the loss of the rechargeable battery is a pain, but with regard to the rest it is quite possible to build your own alternatives.

On the PU point, I think that you're missing a couple of big tricks. The first is that you no longer have to allow additional space inside a build for a controller, which makes packaging a lot easier. The other is that PU allows for a number of things that PF cannot do as it permits near-Mindstorms level of functionality. Quite simply, if you're only using the standard PU remote or the app equivalent you're really only scratching at the surface of what the system offers. @Toastie explained it better than me in this thread. Here's what he said on the matter of speed regulation.

Quote

I really, really like to emphasize on this.

To be quite honest, this has bothered me from day one running trains across a "curvy" track. Back then, I had 16 curves and some straights. And then all that grew. Nevertheless: Using plain vanilla 9V motors OR PF train motors and some longer train, it always turned out to be almost stalling in tight curves and running pretty fast on straights.

There are two approaches for resolving that issue: a) Provide power. Add PF XL's - as many as "needed" to overcome the problem. b) Provide a brain. Here is the reasoning: At full speed (i.e., apply full controller voltage to >train motors< with no PWM) - at least for me - resulted in flying off the track. Particularly when approaching the curve from a stretch of straight track. Everything in between: Slow - fast - slow - fast ... This means that train motors can do it, but need control. Problem: Train motors (even PU) have no rotation sensors. Solution: Use an RCX, a rotation sensor, and train motors, load RobotC into RCX, program a PID algorithm, and off you go. Lot of work. Lot of fiddling. But fun.

Solution two: Use the PU L motor and a PU hub of choice. You just need the "Set speed" (not "Set power") command - and full-blown PID speed control is invoked. Without noticing. When your train is really too heavy: Use two. But: The PID algorithm in the Hub is really cool. 

There is even one more: You can select acceleration/deceleration profiles: Starting speed (lets say "0%"), final speed (lets say "60%"), time to go from start to final, press "start" and the train slowly and steadily, regardless of "obstacles" like curves, does that. Or: Set speed (not power) to 5%. Your train will move around your layout with exactly that speed.

I honestly believe that all that is at least compensating for a little of the price tag of PU motors with rotation sensor and feedback electronics.

Best
Thorsten       

 

[zephyr1934]

You think the transition from PF to PU is bad, you should have seen the transition from 9v to RC, ugh!

Lego is a big company and they are all about making a big profit. So yeah, trains are often lost in the weeds as they pursue greener pastures. A lot of their decisions are driven strictly by profit numbers and in this regard Lego has not helped trains in their own metrics. The Hobby Train was common colors and released with all of the unique parts individually available on the brand new on-line PAB. No need to part out the set, so it sold poorly, must mean trains are unpopular. Then the HE came out in a semi-common color, eliminating most of the folks who parted out the BNSF, EN, Maersk sets. Again, trains sold poorly, must mean trains are unpopular.

In this context of working with a slow to react battleship, yes, it is unfortunate that the BL sets do not include any train sets (I consider a depot a building rather than a train, not to say there is anything wrong with depots). But the fact that the BL sets seem to be moving towards an annual event, I take that as hope for an actual train in the future.

Now by all means, come and complain to us about Lego trains, we're your people and we know your pain. However, the fact that Lego is doing any AFOL outreach like this is a fantastic step in the right direction. So I would suggest you do not go too nuts about complaining outside of train circles. If the response to AFOL outreach efforts is a lot of upset people who did not win the theme lottery, they will stop the AFOL outreach and they will never deliver a train via this route.

[dtomsen]

2 hours ago, Hod Carrier said:

I appreciate your view, but it's a bit bleak. I'm really not so sure that the picture is as black as you paint it. I do agree that some of the train-specific parts have been changed and not necessarily for the better (wheels, couplers, etc) and the loss of the rechargeable battery is a pain, but with regard to the rest it is quite possible to build your own alternatives.

On the PU point, I think that you're missing a couple of big tricks. The first is that you no longer have to allow additional space inside a build for a controller, which makes packaging a lot easier. The other is that PU allows for a number of things that PF cannot do as it permits near-Mindstorms level of functionality. Quite simply, if you're only using the standard PU remote or the app equivalent you're really only scratching at the surface of what the system offers. @Toastie explained it better than me in this thread. Here's what he said on the matter of speed regulation.

 

I build my own stuff, man 

I use PF parts with the third party providers BuWizz and SBrick/Fx Bricks, so I'm not missing out on much but probably ahead. They all offer far more options than PU for not a whole lot more all things considered. And with backward compatibility (and forward with BuWizz 3.0) 

Standard PU is so limited it's rather embarrassing for the high price.

For shows I use 9v (or hybrid solutions) whenever I can. It's still far easier to set up and run without constant supervision and change of batteries.

My view is rather bleak because the situation is exactly that regarding new train parts, systems (including tracks) and sets from LEGO.
Not for me really (having already dropped some of my own inclinations toward brand loyalty myself) but for those insisting on genuine stuff only. They are the ones missing out what is currently available elsewhere 

I just find it rather sad that LEGO is the limiting and not the enabling factor today for us train fans.

[NickLafreniere]

You make it sound like LEGO has permanently cancelled all LEGO train sets for the rest of time! 

Mike Psiaki, one the LEGO designers behind the Ideas Saturn V rocket said in an interview that he had been pitching the idea himself to LEGO for several years but they kept saying no. Then, once the project for a Saturn V went on LEGO Ideas they finally considered the idea. Sometimes LEGO just needs to see some concrete data first before they decide to take the plunge. What a huge success that was for LEGO though! The same is possible for trains on LEGO Ideas.

There are quite a few 10K train projects, plus the votes data from the 90th anniversary fan vote, which show that LEGO trains are clearly in demand right now. Now that LEGO released the Crocodile, everyone is waiting to see what comes next and will probably buy it no matter what, just like the Crocodile. Social media and especially Youtube influencers can market LEGO trains like never before. Add to that the new 18+ age group who started buying LEGO during the pandemic and we will absolutely be sure to see an increase in sales of LEGO trains compared to the past. If LEGO can now do like 3 Creator Expert cars per year, I think they can do a train. 2020 and 2021 have so many adult-oriented models so it seems logical to get that niche filled soon!

Jamied Berrard also said in an interview that LEGO will only make train sets that also incorporate a theme that is outside of just "model trains". For example, cargo train sets like the Maersk or BNSF are too specific to model train fans and might not sell to average person who simply just collects new LEGO sets. It's unfortunate, but we may not see train sets like that again... it's just a bit too niche.

Sets like the Disney Train, Lone Ranger, Toy Story, Winter Village, Harry Potter, and Hidden Side train all have special minifigs and playability and loads of minifgure-interactivity. Even though the Maersk Train is quite nice, a kid would get bored since there is almost nothing for the minifigures to do, except just sit in the cab or stand in just a few spots. The "themed" train needs to be able to convince a non-train fan that it is worth getting.

LEGO is looking for a fun "theme" that goes along with the train so that play is very imaginative and not simply just a display model. The Canadian as well as the Polar Express are both themed and we have each got 10K votes, which is quite difficult for a train project on Ideas, as you know. Although there are some wonderful realistic model trains on LEGO Ideas, they always struggle to get over a few hundred votes and eventually expire. Even if my Canadian train doesn't make it, it will have hopefully proved a powerful point - that we would like a good LEGO train set! When observing the people who voted for my project, many of them seemed to be non-LEGO fans, which is exactly who LEGO is targeting right now. I also saw lots of comments of people saying they actually intend on buying it, instead of just mostly comments like "wow, amazing MOC dude".

[Modeltrainman]

I can think of several fun trains, LEGO just hasn't picked up a certain one, because it hasn't got the votes. *hint, hint*

[Toastie]

On 3/20/2021 at 3:55 PM, dtomsen said:

Standard PU is so limited it's rather embarrassing for the high price.

Yes: When you take "Standard" as in: What the standard LEGO clients (apps) tell the LEGO servers (hubs) what to do. It is a different game, when you do make your own soft stuff and tell them

(Almost everything "original" made in the Great West or Old Europe is ... embarrassing performance wise for the high price. But when we leave the holy grounds of TLG we can mostly live with that - well that is my very personal opinion!)

No: When you build your own stuff - as I do. Get yourself a ESP32 Arduino clone (sigh** same old, I guess; +30€ for the real deal, 7€ and even less from ... da clonnies ...), some software on GitHub and go nuts on the PUp hubs. I mean Buzz and Wizz is nothing but 3rd party BL/E stuff + LiPo. And they are not THAT cheap, to be honest. More diverse, yes. Less restricted on the plugs/sockets, yes ... but then: Simsalabim has stuff to take care of that as well. Plus there are soldering irons.

So I don't blame TLG's hubs - it is their software. And of course: The sockets. If they'd stay with PF: Fine. But I can tell that a hub knowing what it has attached to it ... gives you "some" more options.

I do TLGs hubs from BL + my own "mods". All run on LiPos ... and I do that because I have no clue how the firmware/protocol on the buzzes and wizzes is organized. 

Oh well, this will be a never ending discussion - just do what suits you best. As always in life. Yes I know that you know that.

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