Technic is just for kids, and you can build anything so stop complaining!

[Gray Gear]

29 minutes ago, Erik Leppen said:

Also, again ( @XenoRad but also in general) , please keep in mind that adult is not the same as experienced. Cars like that 10295 Creator 911 cater to car fans, not necessarily people with any building experience.

Yeah but I feel like TLG seems to think the concentration and Brainpower of the average adult equals to that of a 5yo.

Honestly, if you are 18+ and not able to assemble a mid scale system car without colorcoding then LEGO might just not be for you.

I think it is good to make the build and instructions easy to reach a big audience. But I also think the most stupid (or should I say unmotivated?) should be left behind.

Edited February 17, 2021 by Gray Gear

[allanp]

TBH I'm kinda lost on the whole preference Vs complaint thing. Aren't they just different words for what is essentially the same thing? I would prefer colour coding to be more tasteful and so I might complain that it's not tasteful. I would prefer the gearbox to work so I might complain when it doesn't work. It seems that if people happen to agree with any such statement then it's a valid complaint. But if they don't happen to agree with any such statement then it's just a preference and is therefore somehow less worthy of being said. Is it a sneaky way to shut down opinions not agreed with or am I missing something?

BTW, with @grohl making so many designs for b-models I do regret not including an option to gauge the influence of that in the poll question regarding b-models. But it's too late to change it now many have voted already. 

Edited February 17, 2021 by allanp

[Gray Gear]

@allanp Wanting products you paid for to work as advertised is not a preference.

Other companys get sued and have to do mass recalls or refunds if their products dont work as advertised. But not LEGO, yeah right.

[nerdsforprez]

45 minutes ago, Erik Leppen said:

I think this is a very good point. There's outright errors in sets (such as 42110's gearbox not working and clicking/grinding), and there's outright preference (such as color coding).

But there's also many, many things that fall somewhere in between, where it's a gray area. Is 42125's flexy chassis a mistake, or just a preference thing? And the fact that 42110's engine only starts running after driving 50 cm in one direction? Is that a bad function, or a preference?

Both of these cases I would call bad design and I feel fully justified to point things like this out.

Color coding on the other hand, is purely preference, and actually something I'm not even against. I do it myself extensively. Also, in the real world, things are color-coded too, so I don't see the problem (besides part re-usability when MOCing).

Also, again ( @XenoRad but also in general) , please keep in mind that adult is not the same as experienced. Cars like that 10295 Creator 911 cater to car fans, not necessarily people with any building experience.

Also a good point but can I ask.... if sets have somewhere between 10-15% (I don't know if this is accurate, just stating this for argument's sake) of their pieces as color vomit, then this percentage of the set becomes less versatile and is unfriendly for B models, building into other things, etc.  For example, 1/2 liftarms are often used in a chassis, like in the new Porsche model, but in ridiculous colors.  What if I came up with a great B model, and it needed a 1/2 liftarm in the body, and its in some crazy green or pinkish color.  I likely will not be able to use it not only in that set, but anything else I build.... or at least not easily or something that is covered like body work, the innards of a building, etc.  Overall, polychromatic sets decrease the versatility of the multi-colored pieces.  They are really hard to re-use.  

So my contention for such increases in color vomit is not a preference thing (at least not in my mind).  It is a pragmatic thing.  I think we loose 10-15% (or what ever percent of the set is color vomit) of the sets piece value (give or take).  This in my mind tells me TLG is much more concerned about ASSEMBLY than building.  Sets like the new Porsche, appear to me, more designed for the thing we all protest.  A set that sits on a shelf as opposed to a medium that can be used to build other things.  

14 minutes ago, allanp said:

TBH I'm kinda lost on the whole preference Vs complaint thing. Aren't they just different words for what is essentially the same thing? I would prefer colour coding to be more tasteful and so I might complain that it's not tasteful. I would prefer the gearbox to work so I might complain when it doesn't work. It seems that if people happen to agree with any such statement then it's a valid complaint. But if they don't happen to agree with any such statement then it's just a preference and is therefore somehow less worthy of being said. Is it a sneaky way to shut down opinions not agreed with or am I missing something?

 

No, not the same thing.  It is not in that people happen to agree versus not agree, the story is in the percentages.  Taking from your example: color preference might be 50/50.  Some complain, others love it.  In cases such as these = preference.  However, gearbox to work?  I think you would be hard pressed to find folks that love a broken gearbox.  Percentage might be something like 99/1.  99% complain of a broken gearbox whereas only one does not.  A cracky gearbox? Doors that easily fall off? These really are not preferences at all.  Also, it is important to realize that faulty engineering and complaints are not necessarily synonymous.  Something can have faulty engineering but not bug someone..... but that does not deter the fact that faulty engineering still is present.  I don't have the Lambo, but if I remember correctly the doors on the Chiron were pretty flimsily attached.  Some it bugged, some it did not. That does not mean faulty design wasn't still at play....

[allanp]

@Gray Gear yes but someone could technically argue that a set advertised as being for 18+ is not as advertised with all the colour coding, and is therefore a genuine complaint in their view. Someone could also argue that a function, though advertised as being present, was not ever actually advertised as working all that well, and is therefore just a preference in their view. Those aren't arguments I would necessarily agree with but now we're just arguing over word usage! A complaint is ultimately just a statement of disappoint in something (including too colourful, functions don't work), a preference is how you want something to be (less colour coding, functions to work).

@nerdsforprez hmmmm, maybe. I don't think anyone is intentionally trying to shut down opposing views with the whole preference Vs complaint thing. At worst maybe it's some weird form of confirmation bias? I don't know. Remember that the poll also shows the vast majority would prefer RC sets to be more mechanically interesting (complex/realistic) to match their price point. So does that mean stating said preference for mechanically superior RC sets is now elevated to being a valid complaint?

Edited February 17, 2021 by allanp

[Bublehead]

The non-usability of Lego technicolor yawn (as used for internals for A models) for use in B model builds is only an AFOL foible.  Have you ever seen kids play with Lego?  Color coordination is THE LAST thing they worry about.  Children’s imaginations can see way beyond the ADHD adults have with how a model looks once complete.  Also, children are way better at “making do” with the pieces they have in hand, as many understand that there is a price to be paid to the Lego ferryman, and that Lego is a premium and more expensive toy.  I remember that I was way happier with my Lego compared to other toys my parents COULD have purchased, even if that meant getting less actual product for the same cost.  I could have had a huge Tinker Toy collection, but instead I asked Santa for Lego.  I have seen kids put 13 pieces of multi colored Lego together to “make” a toy gun and the “pew” “pew” “pew” never stopped. Did they care it was every color of the rainbow? No, and so, TLG doesn’t care that much either.

[nerdsforprez]

28 minutes ago, allanp said:

 

@nerdsforprez hmmmm, maybe. I don't think anyone is intentionally trying to shut down opposing views with the whole preference Vs complaint thing. At worst maybe it's some weird form of confirmation bias? I don't know. Remember that the poll also shows the vast majority would prefer RC sets to be more mechanically interesting (complex/realistic) to match their price point. So does that mean stating said preference for mechanically superior RC sets is now elevated to being a valid complaint?

I like the reasoning.  If we had an acceptable N size and we were polling from a true sample that TLG works with then perhaps.  But lets face it, we are not, and currently we have a poll of what like 40ish?  Again, the rationale is there... but lets be honest, this is just fun for our sake here on the site.  But its not like the poll is representative or anything of actual Lego buyers.  Even adults.  

Also, your poll is not measuring the issue I brought up at all.  At least not the question I believe you are referring to.   I brought up the every function motorized versus gearbox argument and stated it as a preference.  Your poll, if I am getting your reference correct, is regarding question number nine.  Which has nothing to do with the "every function motorized versus gearbox".  In fact, and I mean this respectfully, I don't think the way you worded it is beneficial at all.  Essentially think it is really "salting the oats" here.  You give two absolute bipolar extremes (Technic RC is perfect, it is the worst), and then one intermediary choice that is worded condescendingly ("kiddie" sets) and then another option that is balanced, brings in a whole new topic altogether (value....which is a hot topic anyways), and worded the question in such a way that begs a vote (i.e. use of word "interesting" ... like pick me! pick me!).  So, I like the thinking... but ultimately don't think it means "stating said preference for mechanically superior RC sets is now elevated to being a valid complaint".  Way too much of a simplistic response.  People will always desire something better if you offer it.  Sets that folks have had relatively little problems with, like say 42043 or something like that would still vote for a "mechanically superior" set if it was offered.  That is not a complaint.  That is simply saying "yea I'll take something more of something I already like...." 

 

[Bublehead]

Anyone else feel that TLG has had winners in the RC/one motor per Chanel/one function per motor functionality (Wheeled loader 42030 comes to mind) as well as one motor/many functions sets like RTC?  The only really bad flagship was the off road wrecker 42070 which tried to combine these ideas into one set and also put a price premium on it that made the value per $$$ the worst in history. I have owned just about every Technic flagship set over 40 years, and although I have been disappointed by some, it has still been nice buying and building them.  When they stop offering a yearly Technic true flagship set, (and not rely on the UCS type Supercar sets to stand in for a flagship set) is when I will start to get worried.

[XenoRad]

I return with a new picture of the front axle of the new Porsche to further enhance my point. Technically I think it's a clever solution. It's relatively compact and works well without making use of a gear rack part.

Color wise, the bottom is yellow (part is upside down on table), the top is light bluish gray and we have two types of green in close proximity with an orange pin. At no point in building this I'm thinking that I'm building something interesting that goes in a car but more like what were they thinking?

And as someone has already said, the ability to reuse such parts as this is minimal. I could not pull this and use it in a MOC where it might be more visible. If anything, I'll more likely take some of my existing parts to correct some of these colors.

Again, I have no problem with color coding done right and up until now it's never really bothered me. But here I believe it's used in excess, even for some simple builds and this for a set that is 18+. Really, it's not a difficult set at all to build and if anything the multitude of colors is distracting rather than helping.

I don't like to see this becoming a trend and especially not for Technic. If we're using the 18+ branding and for licensed models I like to feel that I'm really building the chassis and insides of that car, not that I'm creating some piñata with only the exterior of a car.

Edited February 17, 2021 by XenoRad

[Dazzzy]

3 hours ago, Gray Gear said:

Yeah but I feel like TLG seems to think the concentration and Brainpower of the average adult equals to that of a 5yo.

Honestly, if you are 18+ and not able to assemble a mid scale system car without colorcoding then LEGO might just not be for you.

I think it is good to make the build and instructions easy to reach a big audience. But I also think the most stupid (or should I say unmotivated?) should be left behind.

I pretty much think i'm in the minority here, as i really don't mind the colour coding on 18+ sets. 

I take no offence in what you're saying and i can understand where you're coming from,  but i happen to be one of those adults that's not too mentally sharp. So i appreciate the colour coding making it easier and quicker to put together.  

1 hour ago, XenoRad said:

I don't like to see this becoming a trend and especially not for Technic. If we're using the 18+ branding and for licensed models I like to feel that I'm really building the chassis and insides of that car, not that I'm creating some piñata with only the exterior of a car.

I don't think you need to fear this happening with Technic sets, (well, besides Lego's insistence on using those pesky blue pins).  I think the Creator sets are aimed at a more broader audience, so i imagine that's why there's all the colour coding. 

I think the whole 18+ thing is just being used to identify to a wider adult demographic, that supposedly are in a better position to afford the premium prices of these sets.

By the way, i cannot wait to build that Porsche!  (ordered mine yesterday, but missed out on the owners pack GWP). I'll probably display it for a while, then work on a way to personalise it a bit, like i plan to do with the Mini Cooper.

(attached a digital image created in Studio of my Mini, for anyone interested in what it will look like):

Edited February 17, 2021 by Dazzzy

[Zerobricks]

I think a seperate topic regarding color coding would be in order.

Having seen the photos of the new Porsche I think they really took it too far... But on the other hand I understand them because they are trying to appeal to as wide of an audience as possible and that includes the people who just don't have the attention span or skills to differentiate bricks by shape alone.

Edited February 17, 2021 by Zerobricks

[allanp]

@Bublehead yes of course younger children build all kinds of multicoloured things and don't really care that much. But I'm not sure we should apply the same reasoning to every set including those meant for adults/18+

@nerdsforprez Yes, the RC question wasn't intended to directly answer the multiple motors Vs single motor + multifunction gearbox debate. It was intended to see what people think of RC sets as a whole, and of course value is a big part of that. I would have added a second RC question to answer that more directly but was limited to 10 questions. I had many more than 10. I bet some are thinking "thank God he was limited to only 10 stupid questions!"  . 

In terms of the Poll being representative, of course it's a bit of fun for us on this website. And by allowing all the frustrations out here maybe it will lessen the complaints in other threads. But as small as the sample size may be, I've not been asked any if these questions by TLG, have you? It maybe the biggest sample they have for all I know! And as Eurobricks is probably the largest AFOL community on the net they might not get a bigger one! Or maybe you're right and the sample size really is too small for them to care. I really don't know. But the number of people that responded to the poll is now 50 as I write this. That's like, almost 51!

Edited February 17, 2021 by allanp

[howitzer]

I believe colour vomit isn't just about making sets easier to build or something, but also about the logistics of parts management. TLG probably tries to minimise the use of different colour/part-combinations across the entire yearly lineup and this optimisation requires that lots of seemingly random colours are inserted where they aren't visible in the final model.

About the poll:

I think it should be remade in the final form (in another topic I guess?) so that those of us who voted early could change their votes to more accurate ones as various questions and answers were added later.

[Dazzzy]

4 minutes ago, howitzer said:

I believe colour vomit isn't just about making sets easier to build or something, but also about the logistics of parts management. TLG probably tries to minimise the use of different colour/part-combinations across the entire yearly lineup and this optimisation requires that lots of seemingly random colours are inserted where they aren't visible in the final model.

I think that's a very good point indeed that you've made, that maybe many in this thread may not have even considered. 

 

Edited February 17, 2021 by Dazzzy

[allanp]

@Zerobricks haha yeah maybe. The poll indicates that people don't seem to mind the existence or idea of colour coding actually. Of the 44 that responded to the colour coding question, only 6 selected "colour coding if any kind is no good". The majority selected the two options that said colour coding looks too childish and garish. I think that's not necessarily a problem with colour coding being a thing, but the choice of colours used and how they are used. The Porsche could have the same amount of colour coding but if the colours chosen where less garish and childish looking, and if they didn't feel the need to differentiate left from right/ front from back, then I really do think there wouldn't be as many complaints about it. Maybe @XenoRad could clarify?

@howitzer yeah, sorry about that. I posted it before it was ready by mistake . @Jim, is there a way to allow @howitzer to vote on questions he has yet to vote on?

Regarding the logistics of parts management, wouldn't this lead to less colour coding as it's easier to manage fewer colours? In the Porsche there's the same part in two different colours to differentiate left from right if I'm not mistaken.

 

Edited February 17, 2021 by allanp

[nerdsforprez]

23 minutes ago, allanp said:

 

@nerdsforprez Yes, the RC question wasn't intended to directly answer the multiple motors Vs single motor + multifunction gearbox debate. It was intended to see what people think of RC sets as a whole, and of course value is a big part of that. I would have added a second RC question to answer that more directly but was limited to 10 questions. I had many more than 10. I bet some are thinking "thank God he was limited to only 10 stupid questions!"  . 

In terms of the Poll being representative, of course it's a bit of fun for us on this website. And by allowing all the frustrations out here maybe it will lessen the complaints in other threads. But as small as the sample size may be, I've not been asked any if these questions by TLG, have you? It maybe the biggest sample they have for all I know! And as Eurobricks is probably the largest AFOL community on the net they might not get a bigger one! Or maybe you're right and the sample size really is too small for them to care. I really don't know. 

Either way I am glad you made the poll/topic.  Even though there are folks that are tired of this topic I think it is nice to discuss.  Obviously, others are interested as it has been one of the busier topics in this subforum for the last week or so.  

As you and @Bartybumhave stated several times, it is no good to try and stifle other's voices.  That is something we don't want to encourage and I agree with that.  I just wanted such voices on the right topic which I think you have achieved!  At least it is much better to discuss all this stuff than on the D11 thread!

 

 

[allanp]

@nerdsforprez Thank you 

[Dazzzy]

26 minutes ago, allanp said:

 

Regarding the logistics of parts management, wouldn't this lead to less colour coding as it's easier to manage fewer colours? 

 

Not necessarily. I suppose what excess parts they have from other sets may also be a factor.  

Edited February 17, 2021 by Dazzzy

[XenoRad]

@allanp

On that poll question my answer was: Colour coding is a bit to childish looking and garish in Technic sets aimed at older/more experienced builders.

But that was before this Porsche set. Granted, a lot of my criticism is aimed at this set in particular, but I've still said it in this thread because it pertains to that whole "what does 18+ mean?" discussion and especially for licensed vehicles which cost more.

My main problems with the color coding in this set are as follows:

- There's little need for it since we have 10 different steps for under 1500 parts. At not point so far did I have too many parts on the table that I would need extra help in differentiating between then. I didn't even have to sort them out like I do for the larger Technic sets.

- The color coding isn't even used to differentiate between different piece types. For instance there are 1x2 plates in three different colors (white, black, dark orange) and all three colors are used for the chassis. There are other part types in multiple colors as well.

- The biggest problem however is how those colors come together and in this respect it's the dark orange ones that are the main culprits. I know they're useful for the interior but since we have the same part type in white and black (and light bluish gray in some circumstances) why are they used so much for the chassis? The second culprits are the beams from the front axle from my last screenshot. Those colors simply don't work together and rather than helping out they're creating a visual mess.

Indeed it seems that for manufacturing and logistics reasons Lego has to stuff a lot of different colored parts but I feel that there's very little effort spent here trying to make them work together. And it's not necessarily disappointing due to the 18+ branding but due to the fact that we're supposed to be building a relatively detailed replica of a 911 Porsche. And I can't feel like that when I've just stuck the black plate on top of the white plate, which sits on top of the light bluish gray plate, which is adjacent to the red plate which on one side has a dark orange plate and on another a yellow one while next to it we have a blue plate. Too many colors that don't match well in too little space and it all resembles no real component that would be on the actual car.

 

I don't wish to continue to rant on, especially if it's suggested that color coding to have its own thread, but considering the color inconsistencies which started with the Sian and now this  - this could be something to keep an eye on. We have some pretty big Technic sets coming up this year and I don't wish to see this style of color coding continue down this path. I would draw the line at the 42122 Jeep, which if you look at the underside is also coming close to having too many colors next to each-other but to me that is still acceptable.

Edited February 17, 2021 by XenoRad

[howitzer]

49 minutes ago, allanp said:

Regarding the logistics of parts management, wouldn't this lead to less colour coding as it's easier to manage fewer colours? In the Porsche there's the same part in two different colours to differentiate left from right if I'm not mistaken.

I don't have any actual knowledge on the topic so I can only speculate, but I think it may depend on which colours are produced in which factories and production lines and how big their capacities are. If you need a certain amount of, say, 1x2 bricks to be produced and one colour, say, dark orange is absolutely required only in few sets while, say, black is all over the place and often in places where it won't be visible, they will have much excess capacity in producing those dark orange bricks, as the machinery can probably churn them out at about constant rate, regardless of colour. Changing colour to be produced isn't trivial as all of the machinery has to be cleaned, new colour mixed and checked for consistency etc. so it's probably just cheaper to put those dark orange parts in sets to places where they won't be visible. It's just an additional bonus when this works in the favour of the builders, who for one reason or another, benefit from colour vomit. The logistics of gathering parts for packaging may also play a role here.

[Zerobricks]

24 minutes ago, XenoRad said:

- The color coding isn't even used to differentiate between different piece types. For instance there are 1x2 plates in three different colors (white, black, dark orange) and all three colors are used for the chassis. There are other part types in multiple colors as well.

That's what confuses me too. For example I built the 42125 and:

• Out of 27x 42003 (Connector Perpendicular 3L with 2 Pin Holes)  26 were black and one was light bluish gray which could easily be black
• Same set has #3 connector in red and light bluish gray color AND #4 connector in the light bluish gray, which are really easy to mix up - all #3 connectors could easily be red.
• 7L beam is in black and dark bluish gray, even though they could all be in black
• 15100 connectors are in black, red, light bluish gray with the last one being 4 pieces - again WHY?
• Why does the rear window use 6x 6632 (3L) levers instead of a simple black 9L beam which is alredy used 10 times?
• And many, many, many more weird cases from this set alone.

...and so many more cases where they could simplify the colors of the pieces, where basically all the pieces of the same shape are same color.

It's very messy and I don't understand when they on one hand use color coding to differentiate pieces and on the other break their own rule as stated in the cases above.

 

Edited February 17, 2021 by Zerobricks

[syclone]

Additionally I'm baffled by cases like this:

Why???? Both connectors exist in the necessary colours!!! Yet they decided to use LBG for no reason whatsoever...

Parts aside, I also wonder about the opinion on sets' instructions, my last technic model is from 2017 for different reasons mentioned in this topic, but the instructions were... REALLY step by step. However, rolling back some time they could have complex assemblies in a sub-assembly window, which was quite fun to build. Am I alone on this? Or someone else would like a set to present a challenge to build rather it be served on a silver platter and spoon-fed to you? (Having checked CaDa's "not-a-Ferrari" instructions, these were a delight)

8281 sub-assembly for reference:

And notice how most parts are same colour, bet nowadays it'd be a cacophony of olive greens, oranges, yellows and reds... a lost cause I guess.

[howitzer]

9 minutes ago, syclone said:

Additionally I'm baffled by cases like this:

Why???? Both connectors exist in the necessary colours!!! Yet they decided to use LBG for no reason whatsoever...

<snip>

While those parts have existed in proper colour at some point, it could be that they wouldn't be needed in any other set this year so it was decided that it's not worth restarting their production just for these sets, as LBG parts are produced in huge numbers anyway and it's not too much of an eyesore to use that instead of the proper colour.

[syclone]

14 minutes ago, howitzer said:

While those parts have existed in proper colour at some point, it could be that they wouldn't be needed in any other set this year so it was decided that it's not worth restarting their production just for these sets, as LBG parts are produced in huge numbers anyway and it's not too much of an eyesore to use that instead of the proper colour.

Unfortunately 32184 is available in yellow in 3 2020 sets, and in the Monster Jam pull-back from this year. (Not to mention it has been consistently availbale each year 2016, and being first introduced in yellow in 2000)

The red 44809 also was availalbe in red that year and the previous ones as well...

So not a valid excuse, just more random decisions from TLG

Edited February 17, 2021 by syclone

[Bublehead]

The Chromatic Regurgitation is a way of quickly identifying the parts in the big pile after ripping open the bags and pouring them out.  As crusty old salts that have been building with Technic since it’s debut, we can identify parts blindfolded, and most of us presort to some extent. The Uninitiated and younger Lego users see the color differences as a plus in that color can quickly identify a piece faster than observing its shape and form.  TLG is capitalizing on this to help reduce build times... which seems counterintuitive for a building/construction toy, where you would think the longer it takes to build, the more satisfaction it brings to the user, but focus groups and test market trials would reveal that a set is more well received and future sales more likely when the customer actually finishes the model, and that all the functions work.  So anything TLG can do to “help” the customer finish the build is better in the long run, so they are not about to change anything just because a small dedicated fan base on a public forum are making noise, because that is not about to change anything.

I find it interesting that people believe they have some kind of “voice to be heard” about things dealing with the way TLG runs their business, but this only comes from the “we complained and they listened” feeling users get when TLG changes the way they are doing something that aligns with the complaint, thus reinforcing the belief that their complaints have been heard.

Other than brokered licensing deals, most decisions made at TLG come from management and are based solely on one simple principle.  Make more money.  Which is rule one.  Any further decisions on who, what, when, how, and why need only be reminded, there is only 1 real rule, any other rules are secondary and should be used only as a backup to rule one.  If you can satisfy the squeaky wheels on the forums without losing money, then Ok, but TLG has tried the “do what the customers want and the money will come” attitude before to the almost utter ruin of the company.  I don’t think we will ever see that kind of response from TLG ever again.