Lego Ideas 90th Anniversary Fan Vote

[Scarilian]

1 hour ago, Lego David said:

Wait, so are they also gonna reveal the poll results whenever the set gets released? I thought we'll never know the results of the poll, and LEGO will choose whichever theme they want from the top four, regardless of which has the most votes.

Can get the exact remark here.

It sounds like they will reveal the winner of the vote, maybe potentially the results of the vote alongside it - when the set itself is launched/revealed in 2022. Chances are it'd be 2HY 2022 given Lego's anniversary is in August

Originally the 2nd poll seemed to not matter, with Lego picking any of the three - but Castle seems to have changed things and now Lego seem to have changed plans again to use the results of the 2nd poll to decide - as I doubt they would announce the 90th set and then reveal that theme placed 2nd, 3rd or 4th place on the poll...

As a sidenote, Castle seems to be getting a lot of representation in the recent first 2021 review. Think we are up to four Castle related sets in some form. So hopefully Castle will get a set regardless.

----

With that said, if we have access to the raw data it might be possible to judge the winner for ourselves somewhat if we correlated the data from the 1st poll and labelled what each user voted for individually, then break that down into a single vote reflecting the choices they have made if they have an obvious sway towards a particular theme ofcourse. Naturally this would not account for users switching to support other themes that are not reflective of the first vote and it would not account for new users or those who voted for themes that are not subthemes of Pirates, Space or Castle - but it has potential.

Stonewars might be able to do that, so you could keep an eye on them. Otherwise we are in for a long wait, or a lot of data shifting

Edited February 10, 2021 by Scarilian

[MatthewRC]

2 hours ago, JintaiZ said:

Looking at the comments section, it's looking like Classic Castle will win! 

I don't like the idea to reveal the winner in 2022 though. On the bright side, we can expect something special? (Top two themes, maybe)

And next thing you know, there’s gonna be two winners: Bionicle and Castle.

[JintaiZ]

26 minutes ago, MatthewRC said:

And next thing you know, there’s gonna be two winners: Bionicle and Castle.

If two themes will win, then it will probably be Castle and Classic Space.

[MAB]

3 hours ago, JintaiZ said:

I don't like the idea to reveal the winner in 2022 though.

I think it makes sense to reveal the 90th anniversary set on the 90th anniversary.

 

[MatthewRC]

53 minutes ago, JintaiZ said:

If two themes will win, then it will probably be Castle and Classic Space.

So you doubt Bionicle is going to win, huh?

[Kit Figsto]

20 minutes ago, MatthewRC said:

So you doubt Bionicle is going to win, huh?

I think it has a couple of things working against it.  It did get a lot of votes initially, but you had to remember that people who didn't vote for any of Bionicle/Castle/Pirates/Space the first time are probably more likely to throw their support behind something that's a system theme (if someone didn't vote for Bionicle the first go-round, I really don't see them voting for it this time), so I feel like Bionicle's total isn't likely to really go up from its initial vote total.

Secondly, LEGO is keeping this vote blind (as far as we know), so, if they don't think Bionicle is viable as a one-off, 18+ set, they can just not make it.  And I feel like of the four, Bionicle is the weakest "on-paper" idea of the four themes as an 18+, large scale set.  

I feel like the best outcome here might be that Bionicle doesn't win (Bionicle fans don't kill me please) but rather, LEGO sees that there is a large demand for it to come back, and tries either a new constraction theme or revives it for a third attempt.  If they want to attempt to re-capture the story of Bionicle, doing one set isn't going to be very effective, I think they'd need a full theme to really do it.

[Roebuck]

3 hours ago, Scarilian said:

but seemingly fails to realise that if Castle were to win, the resulting 90th anniversary set has virtually no chance to please the entire audience of the countless themes they just combined.

The thing is that I believe that most Castle fans just want a amazing Castle set, what fractions it is in the set matters less to most people. Yes a lot have their favourites, but a potential set would look so different from any old set with raised baseplates anyway so I do not think it matters much (unless they give us a yellow castle with brickbuilt horses aka classic castle)..

3 hours ago, Scarilian said:

While Lego thinks the solution was combining the subthemes, my solution would have been to never include them to begin with. If Classic Castle was popular or won the hypothetical poll, then perhaps you'd adapt some of the subthemes after Classic Castle's popularity has been demonstrated.

While I agree that this would be a better option from the beginning, the "Castle- category", would have been just Castle. Classic Castle is a subtheme that got 12603 votes and at first glance seems like the most popular Castle-subtheme, however I believe that a lot of the voters misunderstood like you do and thought it was a "all castle theme" grouped into one and voted for that. The rest of the castle subthemes got 34289 votes combined so if most voters is not to fuzzy about the fraction as long as they get one of them this is the way to go 
 

4 hours ago, JintaiZ said:

Could be either Bionicle, Classic Castle, or Classic Space. I don't see pirates winning as it (would have) received the least amount of votes out of the 4 themes in the first round...

I agree even if pirates is my favourite theme of the 4 , however once again the category is just "Castle"

[MAB]

8 minutes ago, Kit Figsto said:

I feel like the best outcome here might be that Bionicle doesn't win (Bionicle fans don't kill me please) but rather, LEGO sees that there is a large demand for it to come back, and tries either a new constraction theme or revives it for a third attempt.  If they want to attempt to re-capture the story of Bionicle, doing one set isn't going to be very effective, I think they'd need a full theme to really do it.

Doing a new Bionicle them is risky though. It wasn't well received last time. Doing a new constraction theme is also risky. They tried incorporating them into some popular themes Star Wars and Superheroes (and Chima) but still couldn't make them work. I think the Bionicle vote is fairly clear what Bionicle fans want. The old stuff again (as new stuff doesn't work), or not at all. And to do that for a whole theme is a big risk.

[JintaiZ]

1 hour ago, MAB said:

I think it makes sense to reveal the 90th anniversary set on the 90th anniversary.

 

You are right, but I really doubt many people would like to wait so long to know about the results...

[Lego David]

1 hour ago, JintaiZ said:

2 hours ago, MatthewRC said:

And next thing you know, there’s gonna be two winners: Bionicle and Castle.

If two themes will win, then it will probably be Castle and Classic Space

I am farily confident that if Bionicle doesn't take the number #1 spot, it will without a doubt take the #2 spot at the very least. I don't think either Classic Space or Pirates will stand a chance against those two giants (based off how many votes they got in the first round).

 

[JintaiZ]

Just now, Lego David said:

I am farily confident that if Bionicle doesn't take the number #1 spot, it will without a doubt take the #2 spot at the very least. I don't think either Classic Space or Pirates will stand a chance against those two giants (based off how many votes they got in the first round).

 

Space combined received more votes than Bionicle.

[Lego David]

6 minutes ago, JintaiZ said:

Space combined received more votes than Bionicle.

Classic Space is generally viewed as its own thing, separated from the rest of the Space themes. Castle, on the other hand, is generally viewed as one single umprella theme. I don't think most people who voted for some of the other Space themes would have also voted for Classic Space.

[Roebuck]

10 minutes ago, Lego David said:

Classic Space is generally viewed as its own thing, separated from the rest of the Space themes. Castle, on the other hand, is generally viewed as one single umprella theme. I don't think most people who voted for some of the other Space themes would have also voted for Classic Space.

Right, the question is what the voters will do when they have the choice between, Castle, Classic space and Pirates! A lot are fans of all 3 so may have voted for 2 or even 3 in the first round now they must make a choice. Bonkle on the other hand will probably keep almost every vote they got in round 1, but probably not get any more either. Those that voted for something else in round 1, may still vote now even if their favourites are out, but hard to know what they will choose To bad we must wait until next year to know  

[Kingriedak]

38 minutes ago, MAB said:

Doing a new Bionicle them is risky though. It wasn't well received last time. Doing a new constraction theme is also risky. They tried incorporating them into some popular themes Star Wars and Superheroes (and Chima) but still couldn't make them work. I think the Bionicle vote is fairly clear what Bionicle fans want. The old stuff again (as new stuff doesn't work), or not at all. And to do that for a whole theme is a big risk.

G2 wasn't advertised at all last time though, but a lot of fandom backlash from the G1 community was over the simplification of the story, which took away from what could have probably made G2 on par with G1 for many folks, I'm not sure how well Chima sold, but star wars Constraction was the wrong building system for the wrong crowd, a star wars collector usually has no interest in Constraction, and Constraction fans have never been into human figures (ex: Galidor). old G1 Bionicle isn't even a really expensive theme to bring back, the Toa/Matoran could just be made with a mixel/technic fusion system with unique masks, and all the large creatures were made mainly out of technic components that were never retired, so they're not even a problem to redo a d improve upon.

Just make a theme about robot people, give it an actual budget and some real marketing and it'll sell

[JintaiZ]

24 minutes ago, Lego David said:

Classic Space is generally viewed as its own thing, separated from the rest of the Space themes. Castle, on the other hand, is generally viewed as one single umprella theme. I don't think most people who voted for some of the other Space themes would have also voted for Classic Space.

Voters of any other Space theme would most likely choose Classic Space over the other themes. (unless they voted for another theme that made it into the top 4)

[Kit Figsto]

9 minutes ago, Kingriedak said:

I'm not sure how well Chima sold, but star wars Constraction was the wrong building system for the wrong crowd, a star wars collector usually has no interest in Constraction, and Constraction fans have never been into human figures

And the Star Wars figures, considering how "meh" the reaction to those seemed to be, still stuck around for like 3-4 years.  Point being, there was still a demand even if that wasn't what constraction fans necessarily were hoping for.  Part of that may be because the Star Wars branding propped it up a bit, but I also feel like some of those legitimately looked really, really good (Boba Fett, Darth Vader, Grievous), and proved that they can still make appealing constraction figures (and the prices on the secondary market for some of those shows it, too).

[Kingriedak]

2 minutes ago, Kit Figsto said:

Part of that may be because the Star Wars branding propped it up a bit

I think its less about swc doing better and just that Lego hoped it would be a better investment than Bionicle, but I think it may have failed so hard with both communities that swc may be responsible for possibly killing Constraction as a whole

5 minutes ago, Kit Figsto said:

I also feel like some of those legitimately looked really, really good (Boba Fett, Darth Vader, Grievous)

Yeah, droids/characters that were wearing helmets sold far better than characters with bare faces. 

[MatthewRC]

44 minutes ago, Lego David said:

Classic Space is generally viewed as its own thing, separated from the rest of the Space themes. Castle, on the other hand, is generally viewed as one single umprella theme. I don't think most people who voted for some of the other Space themes would have also voted for Classic Space.

Correct, and all 4 themes (Bionicle, Pirates, Castle and Classic Space) do not include their subthemes in the fan vote. So it’s still going to be one of the 4 options excluding any subthemes.

[Lego David]

1 hour ago, Roebuck said:

Right, the question is what the voters will do when they have the choice between, Castle, Classic space and Pirates!

If I had to take a guess, I'd say Castle would be the go-to choice for most system fans voting in the poll. I can't guarantee that will happen, but that's my assumption. 

 

1 hour ago, Kingriedak said:

I think its less about swc doing better and just that Lego hoped it would be a better investment than Bionicle, but I think it may have failed so hard with both communities that swc may be responsible for possibly killing Constraction as a whole

The first wave of Star Wars Buildable figures still sold decently, because they focused on the most popular characters in the franchise there. After that though, they began focusing more on the far less popular sequel trilogy and Rogue One characters, and that's what killed the line. Not only were the human characters very djaring and unappealing, but they weren't based off popular characters, and therefore nobody wanted them. The fact that they were twice as expensive than an average Constraction set didn't help either.

It's also worth noting that in general, a lot of Star Wars merchendise warmed the shelves  in the 2017-2018 period, due to the poor reception of the Star Wars movies released at the time. So there's another reason why those sets were almost always on clearance. 

Overall, I think the Star Wars Buildable figures had the potential to be popular, but failed due to a couple of reasons (none of which being Constraction's fault).

Edited February 10, 2021 by Lego David

[Aanchir]

15 minutes ago, MAB said:

Doing a new Bionicle them is risky though. It wasn't well received last time. Doing a new constraction theme is also risky. They tried incorporating them into some popular themes Star Wars and Superheroes (and Chima) but still couldn't make them work.

I mean, Castle and Pirates weren't well received last time either, but I doubt any Castle or Pirates fans would want LEGO to refrain from bringing back those themes because it's "risky". Especially when a lot of the complaints older Bionicle fans had about the 2015 reboot are the same complaints that older Castle and Pirates fans had about those themes' 2013 and 2015 reboots:

• They didn't have enough large or complex sets compared to smaller ones.
   
• Their small and mid-range sets were too expensive relative to their contents.
   
• Their premise, builds, aesthetics, and narrative tone were too simple and childish rather than serious and mature, and seemingly aimed at younger kids.
   
• Their choices of characters and subject matter felt too repetitive/derivative/unimaginative compared to earlier versions of the themes.
   
• They were not marketed as heavily or effectively as they should have been.
   
• They were discontinued too quickly, denying them the opportunity to develop and improve over time like earlier incarnations.
   
• Their designers/developers didn't understand or care enough about what made earlier versions of these themes so great to do them justice.
   
• TLG's corporate leadership clearly didn't value or respect the importance of these themes — if they did, they'd have invested just as heavily in their sets and marketing as they had with newer themes like Ninjago or Legends of Chima, which would have fixed ALL these problems.

I'm not saying all of these criticisms are fair, mind you — while some of them may have had a grain of truth, a lot of the comparisons made between the newest versions of these themes and earlier versions carried a lot of nostalgic bias (especially with regard to their complexity, maturity/seriousness, and pricing). And needless to say, there were a lot of baseless and unflattering assumptions made about the intent or competence of the designers and other LEGO employees, up to and including conspiracy theories that LEGO purposely botched these themes' latest reboots as an excuse to "kill them off for good".

But in the grand scheme of things, even a lot of the assumptions about how well/poorly these reboots actually sold amount to little more than conjecture, often based on anecdotal observations about what sets particular stores were putting on clearance or how quickly those sets ended up disappearing from shelves. Considering the number of times I'd seen people make similar claims about themes that are now known to have been successful (like Ninjago, Friends, Legends of Chima, and Nexo Knights), it's possible that LEGO may not think of these themes as "failures" at all, even if it seems that way from an outside perspective.

1 hour ago, MAB said:

I think the Bionicle vote is fairly clear what Bionicle fans want. The old stuff again (as new stuff doesn't work), or not at all. And to do that for a whole theme is a big risk.

I don't know if this is an accurate reading of what Bionicle fans want. There are certainly some Bionicle fans out there who are very particular about aspects of the theme's original run that a new incarnation MUST maintain. But how different is that from the many LEGO Space or Castle fans who dislike the direction those themes took in the 2000s and 2010s and want those themes to get back to their roots? None of those voices necessarily represent a majority viewpoint among adult fans of those themes, let alone a definite forecast of what sets or themes fans will actually turn out to like or dislike — just predictions about what sorts of sets those individual fans EXPECT to like or dislike.

Moreover, keep in mind that this entire poll is heavily geared towards AFOLs' nostalgia for the themes of our childhoods. I mean, there's a reason that Knights' Kingdom, Vikings, Mars Mission, and Alien Conquest were not included as options! So I think it'd be a mistake to read any more into the number of Bionicle fans specifically hoping for a throwback to "old-school" Bionicle aesthetics (bright colors, greebly mechanical textures, etc) than the number of LEGO Space fans specifically hoping for a throwback to "old-school" Space aesthetics (e.g. "retro" logos and color schemes, angular wing/cockpit shapes, colorful windscreens, etc).

After all, it's not as though any of the preferences expressed in this poll would have much bearing on what a full reboot of these themes would need to be like to achieve lasting success — more likely than not, the true outcome of that scenario would depend largely on how well the theme manages to appeal to the tastes and interests of a KFOL audience.

[Stuartn]

18 hours ago, Scarilian said:

As far as I know my interactions with other users in this thread have been polite discussion. Even if we've had conflicting opinions but talk has been civil with them defending their point and me defending mine. I'm unsure if anyone feels otherwise, would be good to know as not trying to have arguements, just discussions on topics. If anyone feels differently please pm.

You have been, you eloquently made your opinions clear with correct reasoning. .

But there is no need to be defensive to the moderator's comments.

One person was instructed to stop interacting in the argument and it wasn't you, for fairness it is reasonable for the moderator to also mention you, as a party in the argument (regardless of how it started). He didn't mean you were being impolite, just having less interaction with those (such as MAB) who engaged in a politer rebuttal of your argument, and I think was only referring to these last few comments.

I am only saying this as I can vouch for the moderator's fairness and impartiality as I have been on the receiving end of his assistance (in a technical (not moderating) aspect) on a past occasion.

But back on topic, I am not sure whether a bionicle and system set would be released together. The purpose of this poll would have been market research so strong bionicle results could be an indicator that bionicle will make a reappearance. It would have been interesting to have seen what would have happened had G2 bionicle been added.

12 hours ago, Kingriedak said:

G2 wasn't advertised at all last time though, but a lot of fandom backlash from the G1 community was over the simplification of the story, which took away from what could have probably made G2 on par with G1 for many folks

I think Lego need to recognise that buyers, even children, can tackle a complex storyline, if it is marketed correctly, like they did in G1. From what I have learnt in this forum it is that the story is central to bionicle, so to have left out such a pivotal part is probably why G2 failed. The complex story entices buyers to get more sets and sets up the next different wave for more success.

Edited February 11, 2021 by Stuartn

[Flak Maniak]

6 hours ago, JintaiZ said:

Voters of any other Space theme would most likely choose Classic Space over the other themes. (unless they voted for another theme that made it into the top 4)

If the last round had Blacktron II, or M-Tron, or Ice Planet 2002, or Unitron, something of that nature, I'd fairly likely vote for it. (I did vote M-Tron in round 1, as I like its color scheme a lot. My first-round votes were Aquazone, pirates, M-Tron.) But in round 2 I voted for castle. Yeah I'm nostalgic for old-timey space as in "older space themes as a whole", but the grey, blue and trans-yellow doesn't do it for me. Call me a heretic, but many of the later color schemes were much better. (Even before getting into properly-heretical subthemes like UFO and Insectoids.)

[Kit Figsto]

3 hours ago, Flak Maniak said:

If the last round had Blacktron II, or M-Tron, or Ice Planet 2002, or Unitron, something of that nature, I'd fairly likely vote for it. (I did vote M-Tron in round 1, as I like its color scheme a lot. My first-round votes were Aquazone, pirates, M-Tron.) But in round 2 I voted for castle. Yeah I'm nostalgic for old-timey space as in "older space themes as a whole", but the grey, blue and trans-yellow doesn't do it for me. Call me a heretic, but many of the later color schemes were much better. (Even before getting into properly-heretical subthemes like UFO and Insectoids.)

I felt the same way, I know that they gave the option for "add a subtheme" but it seemed like space would almost assuredly be some sort of classic space blue/gray/yellow ship and pirates would probably be a ship, whereas I would've totally voted for one of the later space subthemes or imperials (a remake of Imperial Trading Post would be incredible).  I wasn't confident enough that people would actually push for one of those subthemes, so I went with Castle, since I think it has the best chance to incorporate aspects from forestmen or other factions.

[Flak Maniak]

29 minutes ago, Kit Figsto said:

I felt the same way, I know that they gave the option for "add a subtheme" but it seemed like space would almost assuredly be some sort of classic space blue/gray/yellow ship and pirates would probably be a ship, whereas I would've totally voted for one of the later space subthemes or imperials (a remake of Imperial Trading Post would be incredible).  I wasn't confident enough that people would actually push for one of those subthemes, so I went with Castle, since I think it has the best chance to incorporate aspects from forestmen or other factions.

I voted pirates in the first round, so you could say I had a change of heart, or just that I'd have voted for a unified castle in the first round if that were presented. Either way it just seemed somehow right to vote castle in the second round. (Maybe you'd say it was strategic voting too, and I was treating the first round as a primary. I don't think pirates will get first place in the second round, though if they do I'll certainly not be sad.)

I'm sure that Lego can do something that captures aspects of various early castle sets, both from the '80s and '90s, something that feels nostalgic in its overall design idiom and presentation, but modern in its level of detail and parts usage. When I see Benny's spaceship, well, I just know that Lego CAN pander properly to us nostalgic grown-ups...

If pirates won I'm not sure it'd be a ship. We did just get Barracuda Bay. But if it were another ship, I imagine they'd find a way to contrast it, be it making an imperial ship, or a different pirate faction, or something. Either way, surely they'd find some way to impress us. I think that Lego's designers have a keen sense for how to evoke the look and feel of something old, while making it new.

[Scarilian]

May try the data shifting I mentioned at some point, if Stonewars does not do so. Would give us a bit more of a potential idea of the likelihood of the winner being a specific theme

13 hours ago, Roebuck said:

The thing is that I believe that most Castle fans just want a amazing Castle set, what fractions it is in the set matters less to most people. Yes a lot have their favourites, but a potential set would look so different from any old set with raised baseplates anyway so I do not think it matters much (unless they give us a yellow castle with brickbuilt horses aka classic castle)..

Maybe, the trouble being that the styles and designs of the Castle themes including Classic Castle and other subthemes vary a lot. If Castle were to win, I think it'd be tricky designing a set that would appeal to those who supported the specific subthemes. Maybe including two Castles, one Fantasy, one Medieval would work? or the potential to rebuild a Medieval Castle to be more Fantasy inspired?

10 hours ago, Stuartn said:

-snip-
I am not sure whether a bionicle and system set would be released together. The purpose of this poll would have been market research so strong bionicle results could be an indicator that bionicle will make a reappearance.

Thanks, did not want to annoy anyone.
I feel that Lego might be nervous to adapt another wave of Bionicle, so if Bionicle did win and they only were to provide a single set for the 90th anniversary it would give them an 'out'. If the set sells well then they can make a G3, if the set underperforms then they have no commitment to making a continuation.

Though yes, the poll does serve as market research also and I expect Lego to use the results to influence themes they make in the future - so whatever sets wins, chances are we'll see more of the themes in the future because of this. I hope Lego will adapt some of the smaller themes such as Rock Raiders, Aquazone, Time Cruisers, Adventurers, etc... those never really stood much of a chance due to being short lived.