Observation: Christmas Tree Train Power Systems

[Phil B]

For the last 5+ years I have been running a train under my Christmas tree, powered by a LiIon PF battery box and double motors. I recently answered a question on Bricks.stackexchange.com where someone asked for advice on which power system to buy, and the answer I had to give surprised me so much, that I went ahead and changed my own strategy immediately as well. I am now the proud owner of an oval (16+ curves, 12 straights) with a L+R set of points of 9V track, including transformer, wall wart and power-to-rail connectors. Total cost were around $120, however, this is after deducting the going BL price for other train components that came with my purchase. If I didn't exclude those, my total would have been $190. (All US dollars).

This prompted me to do a quick compare on the costs of a fully working train oval for under a Christmas tree. The Oval consists of 16 curves and at least 8 straights. The cost of whatever Christmas train you choose to run is not included:

Powered UP:

• Battery Box: $50 at LEGO S@H, $35+shipping at BrickLink (only 1 US Seller)
• Motor: $14 at LEGO S@H
• Wheels & Axles: ~$3+shipping on BrickLink for 2 axles and 4 wheels
• Decorative sides: ~$2.50+shipping on BrickLink
• Tracks: 1 Track Pack (8 straights, 4 curves): $20 at LEGO S@H, $16 on sale occasionally at other stores; 12x Curved tracks: $6+shipping at BL
  or:
• Buy set 60197 ($160 at LEGO S@H, occasionally on sale for less at other stores (e.g. currently $128 at Target) plus 4x Straight track ($7+Shipping on BL) - used ones run about the same cost as the promo prices.

      Depending on how you count, this is $100-$160+tax for this setup, and you need to keep a mobile phone around (or pony up another $15 for the remote control), have to keep the connection alive, and will have to replace/recharge batteries every 2-3hrs.

Power Functions:

• Battery Box: $13 on LEGO S@H ($15+shipping on BL), or the LiIon pack which has no US-based sellers currently neither on EBay nor BL, but should go for $100-$150 if available.
• IR Receiver: $10+shipping for a used one on BrickLink
• Decorative sides: ~$2.50+shipping on BrickLink
• Tracks: 1 Track Pack (8 straights, 4 curves): $20 at LEGO S@H, $16 on sale occasionally at other stores; 12x Curved tracks: $6+shipping at BL
  or:
• Buy a retired Power Function set (used) such as 60051, which with patience can be bought used, complete on EBay for $125-$150. You'd need extra straight track though (see Powered Up), which runs ~$7+Shipping.

      Again, depending on how you count, this is a $70-$150 purchase. Likely the cheapest option currently, until prices for Power Functions start skyrocketing once all components have officially retired.
      You get 2-3hrs run time, and unless you add $100 to your total for a LiIon battery box, you will need to buy rechargeable batteries and a charger (or cycle through alkaline AAA's like a madman).

9V:

• Get a used but working copy of 4561 ($100-$150 on EBay)
• Buy some extra straight track: 4*$5+shipping on BL (let's call it $25)

     Total: $125-$175

Suddenly the convenience of never having to change batteries or recharge with a $150 9V purchase sounds pretty attractive, doesn't it? Quite fascinating, for a product that has been discontinued for almost 15 years.

Edited December 2, 2020 by Phil B

[M_slug357]

@Phil B This reads like a decent reason to stay operating with 9v versus PF or PuP.

[Lok24]

Hi,

here are some hints:
Concerning Hub: one should not look for "88009" but for

"Catalog: Pats: Electric, Battery Box: bb0892c01
LegoElectric 9V Battery Box Powered Up Bluetooth HUB with Light Bluish Gray Bottom"

This is about 30$, new, but as you say quite rare in US.
(one is the "set", the other the "part")

Battery based systems you can also use  for cars etc. (the other eleven months...)

And with pybricks you do not need any Smart Device to run a train in circles. But, for example, it could run 3 three rounds and then pause for a while and then continue.
And so on. You would need additional parts for the other system to archive this.

But that all depends on your needs.
 

Edited December 1, 2020 by Lok24

[Tcm0]

You can probably get the powered up passenger train for $70 to $80 new, depending on the deal (at least here in germany we can get it for about 75€ from time to time). Used ones are probably cheaper.

[Phil B]

4 hours ago, Lok24 said:

Hi,

here are some hints:
Concerning Hub: one should not look for "88009" but for

"Catalog: Pats: Electric, Battery Box: bb0892c01
LegoElectric 9V Battery Box Powered Up Bluetooth HUB with Light Bluish Gray Bottom"

This is about 30$, new, but as you say quite rare in US.
(one is the "set", the other the "part")

<snip>

 

The price I quoted above is for the part, not for the set. Only one seller left in the US for $35+shipping, as I mentioned.

3 hours ago, Tcm0 said:

You can probably get the powered up passenger train for $70 to $80 new, depending on the deal (at least here in germany we can get it for about 75€ from time to time). Used ones are probably cheaper.

Not so much in the US. I keep a close eye on everything train related in the US, and even used powered up passenger trains, incomplete, but with the track and the PUp components go for $120+. As I said, the cheapest deal right now is Target's Black Friday price of $128, but otherwise it is $160. Take a look at BrickLink, only 8 sellers and min price in the US is $150+shipping.

[Reker1000000]

Hmm, interesting. I also am running a Christmas train with PF right now, not sure if I want to invest in the 9v system yet. The 4561 doesn't look like a bad option for someone just looking to have an oval loop.

[zephyr1934]

11 hours ago, Phil B said:

Depending on how you count, this is $100-$160+tax for this setup, and you need to keep a mobile phone around (or pony up another $15 for the remote control), have to keep the connection alive, and will have to replace/recharge batteries every 2-3hrs.

If you need everything then buying the city passenger train is probably the cheapest route for both PUP and PF. If you go that route you also get a few extra train parts (wheels and couplers) and the remote.

 

11 hours ago, Phil B said:

Suddenly the convenience of never having to change batteries or recharge with a $150 9V purchase sounds pretty attractive, doesn't it? Quite fascinating, for a product that has been discontinued for almost 15 years. 

Yep, 9v has some great features

[Toastie]

17 hours ago, Phil B said:

Suddenly the convenience of never having to change batteries or recharge with a $150 9V purchase sounds pretty attractive, doesn't it? Quite fascinating, for a product that has been discontinued for almost 15 years.

Welcome (back) to the club .

(I may add that wasting non-rechargeable batteries at the rate one has to is insane. Yes, you can do with rechargeables, but then design well)

To me, it does not sound attractive, it sounds like a reasonable and future oriented solution. But then: There is a market dictating other things.

Best
Thorsten

Edited December 1, 2020 by Toastie
read then post

[ALCO]

If you have the environment where you can run the train endlessly then yes, 9v has some advantages. In my environment I have two Toddler fans of Lego or Toddler fans of daddy's trains. So for me it's best to pick them up when I'm done or when play begins to get more vigorous. 

[Stux]

I recently bought 2 copies of Passenger Train 60197 for $140 AUD each, seemed like a pretty good value just for the track and PUp components. Includes the remote.

I'm enjoying my double length passenger train actually :)

But still, that doesn't solve the running time problem.

[Lok24]

Hi all,

the original post reflects the costs and the power supply.

But in fact the systems have very different properties beside that.
So a recommendation always depends on the personal requirements.

To me an argument against 9V is that the cables are too old an the insulation is often demaged.

[Toastie]

On 12/2/2020 at 12:45 PM, Lok24 said:

To me an argument against 9V is that the cables are too old an the insulation is often demaged.

100% agreed.

But: It is fairly straight forward to replace them. Only if you want to and have the tools at hand, of course.

Best
Thorsten

[Andy Glascott]

On 12/2/2020 at 6:45 AM, Lok24 said:

To me an argument against 9V is that the cables are too old an the insulation is often demaged.

Agreed, which is particularly frustrating given I have 4.5v and 12v wires going back 35 to 40 years that are still in great condition. That said, I still have and run 9v. At least with PuP and PF there are no wires to wear out....

[Phil B]

So I now have 2 9V train motors, but both of them cut off after 20-40 minutes of running. I believe this might be an issue with the Themristor being old .... can someone confirm that that is the most likely conclusion and that opening the motor and removing the themristor is the right thing to do?

@Toastie: I think you know more about this, what would you suggest?

[Toastie]

@Phil B: When the motor has cooled down again, it "works" again (for some period of time) right?

If so, I recommend opening the motor and take the thermistor out. Make sure before closing it again, that it actually works; sometimes the contacts may need some bending.

Best
Thorsten

@Phil B:

Sorry forgot: There are no crazy friction forces present on this train, right? Otherwise, the motors may get too hot. 

[Phil B]

35 minutes ago, Toastie said:

@Phil B: When the motor has cooled down again, it "works" again (for some period of time) right?

If so, I recommend opening the motor and take the thermistor out. Make sure before closing it again, that it actually works; sometimes the contacts may need some bending.

Best
Thorsten

@Phil B:

Sorry forgot: There are no crazy friction forces present on this train, right? Otherwise, the motors may get too hot. 

It's the old Christmas train (10173). From what I read online, it should work with a single 9V motor. But before I go ahead and open up the motors (doing god knows what kind of damage :) ) I will try these motors on my new Christmas train as well (10254) - I have disabled the rotating christmas tree on that one so it should pull easily.

[Toastie]

Very good idea!

Best of luck,
Thorsten

[Phil B]

22 hours ago, Toastie said:

 

@Phil B:

Sorry forgot: There are no crazy friction forces present on this train, right? Otherwise, the motors may get too hot. 

Lo and behold - unlimited runtime when installed in 10254. So the next question: Is 10173 not powerable with 1 9V motor (under the tender as per LEGO’s official suggestion) or is there something on my specific 10173 that is causing more friction? 

Before I converted 10173 to 9V I powered it from a custom box car with 2 PF train motors under it, so I always used 2 motors, but the train had extra carriages at that time. Now it is just the stock 10173. Anyone who can speak from experience?

[coaster]

3 hours ago, Phil B said:

Lo and behold - unlimited runtime when installed in 10254. So the next question: Is 10173 not powerable with 1 9V motor (under the tender as per LEGO’s official suggestion) or is there something on my specific 10173 that is causing more friction? 

Before I converted 10173 to 9V I powered it from a custom box car with 2 PF train motors under it, so I always used 2 motors, but the train had extra carriages at that time. Now it is just the stock 10173. Anyone who can speak from experience?

It's likely just the slight difference in overall load.  The 10173 definitely has greater rolling resistance than the 10254, so your motor may be getting a bit old and overheats on that difference.  I've run mine for hours without any issues.  If you have a spare 9V motor, give that a try.  If not, run it for a while, and when it does stop, see if the case is hot.  If it gets to what I'd call "very warm", then the motor itself is going.  If not, then it's just a bad thermistor that's being a baby about the extra current draw, in which case, like Toastie said, open it up and remove it.

[Phil B]

Just now, coaster said:

It's likely just the slight difference in overall load.  The 10173 definitely has greater rolling resistance than the 10254, so your motor may be getting a bit old and overheats on that difference.  I've run mine for hours without any issues.  If you have a spare 9V motor, give that a try.  If not, run it for a while, and when it does stop, see if the case is hot.  If it gets to what I'd call "very warm", then the motor itself is going.  If not, then it's just a bad thermistor that's being a baby about the extra current draw, in which case, like Toastie said, open it up and remove it.

Thanks. I have one more thing to check - I didn't remove the lower ladder pieces on the left and right side of the tender as I somehow managed to put the motor plus the decorative sides inside these ladders. However, the ladders might be pressing on the decorative sides, which causes friction against the 9V wheels. I'm going to remove the ladders to see if my hunch is right.

[Toastie]

You can also check on the sum friction of all coupled carriages by removing the engine and tender, put them on a section of straight track with some support underneath (e.g., a wooden board, whatever) and then slowly elevate one side of the board to create a ramp. Then note at what elevation the carriages begin to move. The higher the worse the friction is. This is a very rough estimate, as you just "determine" the relative static friction, but it gives you an idea.

Best
Thorsten 

[dr_spock]

Why not use a PIR sensor and have the train automatically run only when someone is in the room?   It'll save wear and tear on rare parts and motors.  It might be fun to see how pets react.