jorgeopesi

Decreasing number of MOCs

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35 minutes ago, 2GodBDGlory said:

The point is this: a certain amount of unnecessary, positive, talk actually increases the effectiveness of constructive criticism.

Oh yes. It does. I do teach at a university for more than 30 years now. Believe me: It does. It also encourages. It motivates. It generates trust, as you get closer to a person. And that for more than 30 years now, purely taken from my own experience. @Jim re-phrased something way up in this thread: A model example.

I also believe that this "unnecessary" talk should actually be gauged from at least three perspectives: 1) I believe with "tweets & company" just being allowed to be so and so long, even beginning with "Good afternoon" or "Dear All" is already too much, not even talking of a closing remark. 2) Age: Younger folks do talk and communicate differently than older folks do (I can tell). 3) Age: Experienced people have a - well much more experienced way of looking at things. As an example: When you do the same PChem lecture for the 6th year in a row, people hearing it apparently get dumber and dumber. Each year. And you go faster and faster and add this and that because everything becomes trivial. So I said to my colleagues: Now way. We will rotate the entire lecture series every year. It works. I also believe it would work here: Technic freaks: Go and build a modular house with interior on this theme: Classical Spanish town. So take your gear boxes apart and off we go. It puts things into perspective. And before any rant: I know that there is a dedicated forum for that, was not the point.

And we can go on and on and on.

One thing appears to be a "constant in communication" though: "unnecessary, positive, talk". Not too much, just a little. I like to call it Empathy. Again: It worked when I was 30 years old it works now, as I am pressing 60. Student populations and their socialization have "changed" big-time - naturally, has to be that way, is good. But appreciation and most importantly mutual respect have not. Well they may have but should not. They are still door openers.

Nice discussion - which is another constant factor here on EB (for the decade I am here).

Best wishes,
Thorsten

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I 100% agree that encouraging creators (rather than knocking their design choices down a few pegs with short/blunt comments) will help to increase participation. We’re social creatures after all, not utilitarian. I can speak from personal experience that even the seemingly empty positive comments are still helpful.

Constructive criticism is helpful, but should also come with a positive attitude, especially for the newcomers.

Edited by Bartybum

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Or how about you split the forum into "criticism allowed" and "criticism not allowed" sections? So the person posting can decide beforehand whether they accept criticism or not? Or to keep it simple use tags that would be visible to everyone, like #pleaseDontCriticize and #criticismAllowed?

Edited by Sariel

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1 hour ago, Sariel said:

Or how about you split the forum into "criticism allowed" and "criticism not allowed" sections? So the person posting can decide beforehand whether they accept criticism or not? Or to keep it simple use tags that would be visible to everyone, like #pleaseDontCriticize and #criticismAllowed?

Sarcasm about criticism. Does that count as irony? :laugh_hard:

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1 hour ago, Sariel said:

Or how about you split the forum into "criticism allowed" and "criticism not allowed" sections? So the person posting can decide beforehand whether they accept criticism or not? Or to keep it simple use tags that would be visible to everyone, like #pleaseDontCriticize and #criticismAllowed?

I afraid that splitting the forum to sub-forums will actually split the people too: I believe that "criticism not allowed" may just become a kind of museum, we you saw something and them moves along to the next one. Shh, keep silence and don't touch them!
The "scale models" forum was split once and the activity is very low now...

Instead, I would just add the same "criticism allowed" and "criticism not allowed" sentences to the individual posts, if the author accepts, refuse, or just doesn't care about the criticism.

As the MOC and total activity, I would say that following to social networks, the global trend leads to system-like sets (Star Wars and other similar things), whereas the Technic ones are "complicate enough to be a restful toy in our complicated World".
So, only "techno maniacs", a very limited group of people, shared this spirit of The Grey Gear and Axle.

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If You post something in the forum, get ready to be criticised. And that should be done constructive way, pointing what is not OK, why it is not OK. In best case also, how it can be improved.

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One of the most agreeable arguments is about people whose native language is not English. In fact, I'm writing this comment using a translator and I'm posting it over a little bit of postprocessing.

And I also sympathize with the topic without replies. Last year, I posted about a powerfunction racing event held in Korea, and the reply was zero.  I think it could be because the participating vehicles are not very good at this forum, where most of the "professional builders" are participating.

My other posts with some replies are similar. For example, my TC18 Delorean, which was in the top 42% of the vote, and the Driftable AE86, the largest and most detailed car I've ever built, were less than a page full of replies.

I've also posted these two models on Facebook and my local community, both of which have received more than 20 comments, at least 20 recommendations(Delorean, local), 100 likes(86, facebook), and 86 on the local community, with the honor of being on the community's main screen. Like this forum.

I have something to say about the WIP topic.
I usually don't have time to take pictures because I'm focusing on assembly and planning when I'm making MOCs. And I try to finish them as quickly as possible except for the initial idea, so I don't have much time to take pictures.
For example, the TC18 Delorean completed the chassis in one day, the external operation took three days, and the internal operation ended in just a few hours.

Finally, I want to talk about the structural problems of this community. Originally I wasn't going to tell this, but I don't think I'll have a chance unless now.
I don't know what other people would think, but I've been very familiar to uploading photos directly to posts. Facebook and all the local communities I've joined are the same.
But it's different only here. To upload a picture to a post, you have to upload photo on an external image site first, and then put a link to it, so you have to open two sites while you're writing.
While I'm not good at taking pictures, but I don't feel the need to log in twice and write up to here, so I just post on Facebook and the local community right away.

That's all my opinion. Please don't get me wrong. I like Eurobrick and this is the first foreign Lego community I've ever joined.

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1 hour ago, Void_S said:

I afraid that splitting the forum to sub-forums will actually split the people too: I believe that "criticism not allowed" may just become a kind of museum, we you saw something and them moves along to the next one. Shh, keep silence and don't touch them!
The "scale models" forum was split once and the activity is very low now...

Instead, I would just add the same "criticism allowed" and "criticism not allowed" sentences to the individual posts, if the author accepts, refuse, or just doesn't care about the criticism.

As the MOC and total activity, I would say that following to social networks, the global trend leads to system-like sets (Star Wars and other similar things), whereas the Technic ones are "complicate enough to be a restful toy in our complicated World".
So, only "techno maniacs", a very limited group of people, shared this spirit of The Grey Gear and Axle.

Lets not go for the bait anymore.  Honestly.  I think @Sariel is trying to be cute here.  No one in their right mind would think they can post something without it being criticized.  Or at least they shouldn't.  

I for one don't see this so called issue of folks not being able to talk criticism.  I see folks on here taking it extremely well.  90% or so of folks post something, and when are criticized do just fine with it.   The dichotomy we are discussing is not criticism versus no criticism, but criticism versus insults.  Criticisms are welcome and needed to evolve, no one really argues that.  Insults are not.  Its a simple distinction guys.  Please, lets not keep confusing the two.  No one need roses, or flowers, unicorns or bunnies.  People can be blunt, harsh, direct, etc.  Just no insults.  It really is not that hard.  Saying things like someone's model "hurts my eyes" is an insult.  

I don't think we need to change anything about the forum based on a false dichotomy I am not sure even exists......

 

 

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14 minutes ago, nerdsforprez said:

Lets not go for the bait anymore.

You ought to relax more. Splitting the forum might be impractical, but using tags to mark that you're not ready for criticism? What's so terribly wrong with that?

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12 minutes ago, nerdsforprez said:

Saying things like someone's model "hurts my eyes" is an insult. 

I backed @Sariel up on that one, and I think it more or less needed to be said. No offence to @howitzer at all here (his Gradall MOC looks seriously promising), but that suspension setup was pretty precarious, and for a type of vehicle that didn't even need it.

Overall, I think if someone offers you harsh criticism, it means they care enough to prompt a serious rethink.

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To stop this from becoming even more of a battlefield, I'm gonna steer us all in another direction.

One post that didn't get anywhere near enough attention was the mention of having more contests.

It's been a few months since our last contest, and I think it's due time that we had another one.

I also think that EB should be reaching out and networking with other social media platforms to attract traffic to the forum. YouTube channels like Brother's Brick, Instagram pages like LoxLego and legotechnic_best promoting EB Technic contests (with some form of a prize) could provide a decent boost to forum participation.

Edited by Bartybum

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15 minutes ago, Sariel said:

but using tags to mark that you're not ready for criticism? What's so terribly wrong with that?

It is something like You came to barber, but doesn't expect to be shaved.

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2 hours ago, Sariel said:

Or how about you split the forum into "criticism allowed" and "criticism not allowed" sections?

I think this would put people posting in both "criticism allowed" and "criticism not allowed" sections in unhealthy positions. 

Those who post in "criticism allowed" may place undo weight on the fact that they, and they alone, have the power to let other people criticise their work. This is, of course, a bit of an exaggeration, but even so, this power should not be normalised as everywhere else in the world, people will be criticised whether they like it or not. Also, those who post in "criticism allowed" will occasionally receive insults, and understandably get defensive. This could lead to a situation where there is barely any constructive criticism at all; just one forum for insults or very harsh criticisms telling those who point out the fruitlessness of these so-called "criticisms" to switch to the "criticism not allowed" forum and one forum—the people in the "criticism not allowed" forum—where people miss out on the opportunity to improve their MOCs or WIPs with the help of experienced builders, not to mention the unrealistic nature of a situation where, after posting publicly, one does not receive criticism. 

 

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How it would be possible to switch off criticism in some forum?! There will be only like buttons like in twitter?

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28 minutes ago, Sariel said:

Splitting the forum might be impractical, but using tags to mark that you're not ready for criticism? What's so terribly wrong with that?

In any case, I don't think anybody's going to use the tag because of the implication that they can't handle criticism that will inevitably come with it. Most people can accept constructive criticism here. In the five years I've been here, I can count the amount of spats due to criticism on one hand. I honestly don't think it's a big enough issue to warrant tags. Strictly speaking, I'm not against the idea of a 'no criticism' tag, but I think it's going to do absolutely nothing to increase forum participation.

Edited by Bartybum

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34 minutes ago, Sariel said:

You ought to relax more. Splitting the forum might be impractical, but using tags to mark that you're not ready for criticism? What's so terribly wrong with that?

I'm relaxed :sweet: Nothing is wrong with it man, its just not needed IMO.  Plus a bad idea.  It seems to swing too far the opposite way.  Borders enabling. To your point, folks should be able to take criticism.  If they can't that is on them.  And if they can't, again to your point I think there is something much more significant going on, like they shouldn't be on the site anyways (age or maturity problem).    

Do we really want to create a venue where folks can post something and not be criticized for it?  Where else on the WWW would that apply?  What sort of example would we be establishing....especially if we suspect underage users....

37 minutes ago, Maaboo35 said:

I backed @Sariel up on that one, and I think it more or less needed to be said. No offence to @howitzer at all here (his Gradall MOC looks seriously promising), but that suspension setup was pretty precarious, and for a type of vehicle that didn't even need it.

Overall, I think if someone offers you harsh criticism, it means they care enough to prompt a serious rethink.

So did I. And I am the critic here of Sariel's post. I had no problem with him trying to help.  

But again, folks need to be intellectually honest here.  It probably appears as I am attacking Sariel.  I am not.  Help all you want, and criticize all you want. Just don't ridicule or insult. Its real easy guys.  That was the only point I was trying to make.  

Sariel's first comments of hurting his eyes, etc....those were insults.  Had nothing to do with offering help. And to howitzer's credit, he didn't even mind.  Nonetheless it is not needed. No one is calling for rainbows, unicorns, etc. - those are all sariel's words, no one elses.  

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42 minutes ago, Sariel said:

You ought to relax more.

3 minutes ago, nerdsforprez said:

I'm relaxed

Guys, we understand there are different views on the matter, but let's try to keep it on point. Pocking between members surely do not help as much as a civil discussion :thumbup:
@Bartybum thanks for editing your post :thumbup:

 

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8 hours ago, Milan said:

Guys, we understand there are different views on the matter, but let's try to keep it on point. Pocking between members surely do not help as much as a civil discussion :thumbup:
@Bartybum thanks for editing your post :thumbup:

 

Understood.  But, and I mean this respectfully, I think this has much less to do with pocking between two members but but more about debating between two ideas. And that is exactly what the forum is for.  Or at least I think so.  

One idea says that folks here on EB can't take criticism.  

Other ideas says they can - just don't do well with insults.  They are different things.  

And the resolving which is more accurate, again IMO, is directly related to the post.  One central idea of why we see less posting on the EB Technic forum is because idea number one is accurate.  I don't see that as the case.... thats all.  

Edited by nerdsforprez

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I'm not sure, but has the discussion in this topic spurred a new wave of WIP-topics here?

Before I wasn't sure if I should make a WIP-topic about my excavator or just present the finished piece whenever in the far future it might be finished, but the discussion here made me realize that a WIP-topic would present much better opportunities to learn, for myself as well as others. Simply typing out whatever problems there might be helps in itself towards solutions and even more so if someone else contributes their thoughts. So from now on whenever I have a bigger project, I think I'll be making a proper WIP-topic instead of just trying to finish the build before presenting it.

Contests also require a WIP-topic, and isn't learning and exchange of ideas the exact reason this is a requirement?

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On 11/16/2020 at 8:05 AM, allanp said:

But I wonder how much Covid has effected all this. This year has been down right depressing! I certainly haven't felt like doing a whole lot of playing with Lego. But this is only temporary, things will be alright again soon I think, hope and pray. I don't know if you guys feel the same but maybe when I get my mojo back then perhaps the best thing to do would be to lead by example, and be the change you want to see so to speak, and post more WIP stuff, or stuff that has the completed mechanical work but not so much bodywork, or stuff made not to show off how amazeballs I am but just because I enjoyed making it. 

Not related to the discussion on criticism, but re: the thread title, this hits the nail on the head for me. I was lucky enough to have started my most recent MOC before Covid really hit, but now the prospect of starting up another ~8 month process from scratch is now very intimidating. World events & quarantine can be pretty draining, and that might be affecting people’s creativity. Likewise I think “depression-lite” with the current state of things might be making people (including me) less likely to comment, and might be making even just a thoughtful comment seem like a more intimidating creative task than it would usually be. Not trying to diagnose anybody or anything, I just think it might be a contributing factor for some.

 

I think Eurobricks has always had a “higher standard” of comment than other places to talk about Technic. Where else can you swap axle designs that include caster/kingpin inclination, get knowledgeable responses just from posting a schematic, etc. I’ve never seen that kind of interaction anywhere but here (in English, at least). I can’t imagine Facebook caring about a compact Macpherson strut suspension design if there wasn’t a car with pretty bodywork attached to it. Maybe that “higher standard” of discussion is more prone to suffer when world events are unusually depressing.

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1 hour ago, Pattspatt said:

 

I think Eurobricks has always had a “higher standard” of comment than other places to talk about Technic. Where else can you swap axle designs that include caster/kingpin inclination, get knowledgeable responses just from posting a schematic, etc. I’ve never seen that kind of interaction anywhere but here (in English, at least). I can’t imagine Facebook caring about a compact Macpherson strut suspension design if there wasn’t a car with pretty bodywork attached to it. Maybe that “higher standard” of discussion is more prone to suffer when world events are unusually depressing.

Yes, it is great to be able to have intelligent discussion about this stuff! Virtually any time I physically show my stuff to family or friends, they understand very little of the mechanics. They just see a big, incomprehensible car, and think that it's cool, but no more. On here, we have enough like-minded people to dig into technical details. This is one big reason that we should do our best to keep the forum alive!

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As a site that depends on MOCs to function, we think LEGO creations are probably being built at the same rate they always were. However, our Elves are definitely going hungrier. MOCpages being dead wasn't a help, and a lot of models are now hidden behind 'account required' platforms such as Instagram and Facebook, which we will not use.

Perhaps the internet is crying out for a new LEGO-creation-sharing-only platform, without a hidden agenda of monetising instructions or driving traffic to a YouTube channel.

One thing that does seem apparent though, is that many builders (and perhaps an increasing percentage) prefer to build others' designs rather than invent their own. The single largest quantity of messages we receive is 'Can I have instructions?', although often spelt worse, and rate at which we receive these is increasing all the time.

This is - we think - a real shame. For us, only building without creating/inventing/designing for oneself misses the very purpose of LEGO.

TLCB Team

www.thelegocarblog.com

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Since Lockdown 1 in April I have built the 42100, which was an enjoyable build but found it not very playable and gathering dust on a shelf.

Since then I have built several complicated MOCs, and improved previous MOS, which has kept me sane Mentally active.

Most of my posts don,t get any response, but that doesn’t bother me as I enjoy the challenge of getting them to work as intended.

Now in lock down 2 now so more MOCs to come .

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On 11/16/2020 at 11:15 AM, Sariel said:

You can't criticize on EB because then EB explodes. Trust me, I've tried.

Hi Sariel, I'm following you now for many years and I really admire your models and skills. So consider me as a huge fan. But that particular comment... With all legitimate criticism about the construction you were referring to, addressing someone condescendingly is not criticism and your comment could be easily understood as such. For my taste it was a bit too much, for other people it was obviously not. I mean I'm aware that a lot of non-vocal communication is lost when text post are used. In a face to face conversation you might have said that which a smile, which could have had a total different outcome.

On 11/16/2020 at 1:01 PM, Jim said:

Let's not forget that most of us have been around for a decade (some more, some less) or so. In the beginning you are enthusiastic about being part of the community and making lots of posts. But after ten year you tend to skip the "less important topics" (with all due respect).

I do think that giving a simple response is better than no response at all, but that will diminish the quality of the topic. On the other hand; a topic with no responses isn't exactly a quality topic either.

The German forum doctor-brick has a like button for posts. I find that very useful. First, because even when no one is replying to my post and can see these likes, which is motivating. Second, quite often i just have nothing to add. So i just leave a like. Was something like this discussed here? I think this would have motivated that guy to develop more attachments. But that's just my assumption that he stopped because of the lack of feedback.

Edited by Andman

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