Decreasing number of MOCs: affected by criticism?

[nerdsforprez]

32 minutes ago, Jim said:

Let's not forget that most of us have been around for a decade (some more, some less) or so.

I have actually thought about this Jim.  I mean, I think every enterprise, hobby, discipline, etc. needs foundational characters.  I have also been around nearly a decade. I know that some of my original inspirations were Blakbird, Crowkillers, Sariel, and others.  I loved keeping up with their work.  But their activity has waned in the last couple of years.  Others are up and coming, some sort of replacements if you will, but I wonder if the feeling of the "good ol days" is waning for some of us old timers.  

I have at least had this thought.  That is not what has caused my waning activity (mostly due to huge life changes, I am sure I will become more active once I finish house, etc.) but I recognize the thought.  At least for me.  Not sure if others have felt the same?   

[Woodpecker]

14 minutes ago, Zerobricks said:

are opening many topics looking for a quick, instant solution (gratification) without fixing the underlying issue.

 

I'm not sure what you mean here. For example, for someone who's gearbox isn't running smoothly would an example of a quick, instant solution be repeatedly loosening the gears and moving them farther away from sources of friction? By contrast, in this situation would the more comprehensive fix be to build a better support structure around the gearbox, (i.e. fixing the underlying issue)? 

[Sariel]

32 minutes ago, nerdsforprez said:

Take it from the psychologist in the bunch, the fact that you feel you have to do a facepalm because of what someone posts about a HOBBY says a lot more about you than anything else.  

Sorry mate, can't see even the tiniest bit of logic in what you're trying to say here. For each person, there's a certain set of things that will trigger a facepalm-like reaction (here, perhaps you like this expression better). This has nothing to do with the specific subject of these things or with how that person views themselves. If my hobby is building with LEGO, I can still be triggered by how someone uses a spoon or drives a bicycle. I get that you're trying really, really hard to make me look like I suffer from some superiority complex but frankly, this is laughable and probably says more about you than about me. I'm just a builder like anyone else, and the fact that I - along with many other people, since you like this kind of putting things in perspective - feel outright depressed by some of the stuff I see here has way more to do with the general level of posts that pop up on EB than with how I see myself. What's next mr. psychologist, shall we talk about my relationship with my parents?

Edited November 16, 2020 by Sariel

[nerdsforprez]

4 minutes ago, Sariel said:

Sorry mate, can't see even the tiniest bit of logic in what you're trying to say here. For each person, there's a certain set of things that will trigger a facepalm-like reaction (here, perhaps you like this expression better). This has nothing to do with the specific subject of these things or with how that person views themselves. If my hobby is building with LEGO, I can still be triggered by how someone uses a spoon or drives a bicycle. I get that you're trying really, really hard to make me look like I suffer from some superiority complex but frankly, this is laughable and probably says more about you than about me. I'm just a builder like anyone else, and the fact that I - along with many other people, since you like this kind of putting things in perspective - feel outright depressed by some of the stuff I see here has way more to do with the general level of posts that pop up on EB than with how I see myself. What's next mr. psychologist, shall we talk about my relationship with my parents?

Let's debate without getting snarky.  No need for this.  I respect your work a great deal and honestly am quite surprised you are kicking so much against the pricks here.  Such a brilliant mind completely incapable of seeing the irony here.  You are one of the worst about taking constructive feedback about your own work.  I am not the only one to point these things out about your posts.  These have been pointed out time and time again by others. 

I will PM, not going to bog down the post more here. 

 

[Jim]

1 hour ago, Sariel said:

I think it could still use a bit more unicorns and rainbows and fluffy bears and kittens. Seriously though, I have nothing but respect for you Jim but this puts pretty serious limitations on how people can express themselves...

The respect is completely mutual.

However, I don't think that being a bit more polite and understanding (in general, not you personally) limits the way you can express your criticism. Of course, you don't need to sugercoat every sentence, but adding some friendlyness once in a while won't hurt. That's all I'm saying. 

[Pvdb]

3 hours ago, Sariel said:

just not enough time for building because of a full-time job, family and kid. 

I can completely relate to the - not enough time - family, kids, issue.  I have my next MOC that's 95% complete just sitting there staring at me, right now as I "work at home" (whilst obviously multitasking by checking Eurobricks - well is also lunchtime).

There are still some really great MOCs being built, but perhaps some of the most prolific builders of the last 5-10 years have just slowed their output slightly??

[nerdsforprez]

Back on point for me....

I like that some have offered perhaps making a subforum for beginners or more hobby-enthusiasts rather than those that are experienced or tailored towards excellence.  I think the idea is a good one, but not sure it is needed.  I think there are other forums or avenues for that.  As others have pointed out, youtube or FB are among these.  MOCpages used to be totally geared towards this, but sadly it died.  

I do think (and I will point the finger at myself here a little) some burden lies on the poster to be aware of the forum he or she is submitting to . I agree that EB is more of an elitist forum designed for showcasing some of the best work that is out there.  If I am posting something, I need to be aware of this and am responsible for awareness of where I fall on the continuum of building; my skill-set and motive for building.  

For example, I work in a busy hospital.  I put in long hours and strive for excellence with the patients I treat.  At the end of the day, I simply do not have it in the tank to come home and strive for such excellence in my hobby.  I build to de-stress.  I build to have fun.  I build like I play football with my kids.  If they mess up, I am not going to rip them to shreds.  I may make some recommendation about the routes they run, or throw the ball, but any such comments will be given with the end goal in mind, meaning to have fun and build relationships.  If I have to bite my tongue a little to achieve this end, so be it.  

When I built in the past I didn't showcase models in some pursuit of excellence.  I showcased with a light-hearted, hobby-like mentality.  If I were to share on this forum, (and I have in the past), but knowing that this is more of an elitist forum and my model were to get ripped to shreds well then I feel at least some of the onus should fall on me for submitting on something that I had no business submitting to in the first place.    To @sariel's and others POV, to absolve a poster from any responsibility of awareness to the forum they are submitting to is not the answer either.....

Edited November 16, 2020 by nerdsforprez

[chekitch]

Like @CalimeroLego, I don't think the MOCs I finished are worthy of a topic. They'd probably only make @Sariel facepalm and for a good reason

I have few ideas and one WIP that after this topic I might open as WIP, but for the smaller MOCs I did just for the fun of it, I'd feel like I'm spamming the forum.. The quality of good MOCs is just over the roof (I mean, most of them are being produced!), and the bad ones.. Well, I don't want to be among the bad ones..

 

What I would do, maybe, is post it in some group topic with "non-serious MOCs", if you know what I mean. Somewhere where the standard for MOCs and for presentation of it would be lower. Also, the power of a herd, you know, I think many would not feel so intimidated for posting in a thread like that vs creating their own topic. @Jim, what do you think about something like that?

 

[Jim]

1 minute ago, chekitch said:

Like @CalimeroLego, I don't think the MOCs I finished are worthy of a topic. They'd probably only make @Sariel facepalm and for a good reason

This is exactly the problem at hand. You should not be intimidated (although I understand you are). This is not an "expert Technic forum", but a "Technic forum".

2 minutes ago, chekitch said:

What I would do, maybe, is post it in some group topic with "non-serious MOCs", if you know what I mean. Somewhere where the standard for MOCs and for presentation of it would be lower. Also, the power of a herd, you know, I think many would not feel so intimidated for posting in a thread like that vs creating their own topic. @Jim, what do you think about something like that? 

Creating a "Beginner MOC Topic" isn't such a bad idea 

[chekitch]

Just now, Jim said:

This is exactly the problem at hand. You should not be intimidated (although I understand you are). This is not an "expert Technic forum", but a "Technic forum".

Creating a "Beginner MOC Topic" isn't such a bad idea 

Well, I know I shouldn't but still. Also, doing a good presentation of a MOC you don't feel is really that great feels a waste of time, and not doing a good presentation feels like disrespecting the others that really put hard work into both of that..

 

Thanks. It could be Beginners, but also maybe for "scrap MOCs" of the good builders, or those things you build when you have an idea, but don't want to make a whole Moc around it... I think it would work.

 

[doug72]

We all ready have an Axle thread, similar threads for Gearboxes & for Suspension topics would be useful.

[allanp]

Well, I guess with the number of replies this topic is getting, about the lack of posts ironically, is proof that EB and the technic forum is certainly not dead! When I click the little unread items icon at the top of this page I see all the posts in all the forums, and the Technic subforum seems like one of the most active to me. 

I think that as we have more and more access to more and more information, building techniques and so on, it tends to raise standards of MOC builders and what is expected of them in their own minds. Look at 10 years ago. There wasn't as much as there is now, and subconsciously we put ourselves in competition with everyone else. So MOCs that are great and finished are taking much longer to make with more time spent on them, while so called lesser MOCs (meaning MOCs built just for the fun of building for example) don't get posted anymore. 

In terms of constructive criticisms, on the rare occasions that I have posted a MOC I remember enjoying the constructive criticisms more than I thought I would, it made it feel like we were a group of mates trying to build something great together. So people really shouldn't be afraid of that. 

But I wonder how much Covid has effected all this. This year has been down right depressing! I certainly haven't felt like doing a whole lot of playing with Lego. But this is only temporary, things will be alright again soon I think, hope and pray. I don't know if you guys feel the same but maybe when I get my mojo back then perhaps the best thing to do would be to lead by example, and be the change you want to see so to speak, and post more WIP stuff, or stuff that has the completed mechanical work but not so much bodywork, or stuff made not to show off how amazeballs I am but just because I enjoyed making it. 

[jorgeopesi]

I did a lot of MOCs with a 10 hours a day job, family and gym so I can not say that the time is a problem, I use to sleep too  .

[Lasse D]

There is another aspect which we have not yet mentioned when considering constructive feedback. Many of us do not have English as our native language. A short comment on a moc can be made with the best of intend, but cut short and be using less flowery wording simply because of the lack of experience with the language. I would rather have short an honest answers than having people keep their silence in fear for being misunderstood.

And I agree with the comments regarding WIP topics that transform into MOC topics when the models are complete. I have a WIP topic which has gathered a massive amount of attention (relative to any other topic I have made the past many years) and I cherish the feedback I am getting in it. As an example, one mentions that I should consider using mecanum wheels to minimize some planar forces, and I am not actively looking into that solution. Another poster suggests that I use a part... which the prototype already uses, but that is also OK: At least the use of that part is being highlighted. In that topic I would much rather have a short and honest "Lasse. Trust me. Those legs will never align" comment from @Sariel than no comment at all. Sure, it is a stab right in the pride, but it is still much better than wasting days of building on something that will never work.

That said, I can also know the other side of the coin. Some 10 or so years ago I made a comment along the lines of "You should stop encouraging this. LEGO is not strong enough as a material and the motors are not powerful enough to support a functional airplane" after 10 or so others had encouraged a member (not on EB) to continue building a very, very expensive airplane. The builder went absolutely mental and called me every bad name under the Sun. It honestly feels like the meme "Why are you booing me? i'm right!" when that happens, and he unfortunately took it as a challenge to continue the deadborn airplane.

[howitzer]

4 minutes ago, Lasse D said:

There is another aspect which we have not yet mentioned when considering constructive feedback. Many of us do not have English as our native language. A short comment on a moc can be made with the best of intend, but cut short and be using less flowery wording simply because of the lack of experience with the language. I would rather have short an honest answers than having people keep their silence in fear for being misunderstood.

And I agree with the comments regarding WIP topics that transform into MOC topics when the models are complete. I have a WIP topic which has gathered a massive amount of attention (relative to any other topic I have made the past many years) and I cherish the feedback I am getting in it. As an example, one mentions that I should consider using mecanum wheels to minimize some planar forces, and I am not actively looking into that solution. Another poster suggests that I use a part... which the prototype already uses, but that is also OK: At least the use of that part is being highlighted. In that topic I would much rather have a short and honest "Lasse. Trust me. Those legs will never align" comment from @Sariel than no comment at all. Sure, it is a stab right in the pride, but it is still much better than wasting days of building on something that will never work.

That said, I can also know the other side of the coin. Some 10 or so years ago I made a comment along the lines of "You should stop encouraging this. LEGO is not strong enough as a material and the motors are not powerful enough to support a functional airplane" after 10 or so others had encouraged a member (not on EB) to continue building a very, very expensive airplane. The builder went absolutely mental and called me every bad name under the Sun. It honestly feels like the meme "Why are you booing me? i'm right!" when that happens, and he unfortunately took it as a challenge to continue the deadborn airplane.

This is very true. I consider myself pretty skilled in English (I was even praised by the teacher of Academic English course recently) but still I do and I always will miss some of the subtler meanings, as those will only come to those who grow up with the language. It's no excuse to be rude though, basic politeness is something that everyone is capable of learning.

I personally don't like the over-flowery sugarcoating of criticism but there are times when a little bit of softening in the language used would be nice. Still, I'd rather have the "this will never work"-type comment stabbed right into my pride than encouragement to build something that cannot be made to work.

About flying Lego things, I'm sure a fixed-wing aircraft is patently impossible but there was actually a Youtube video of Lego-built drone. Granted, it used third-party power source and control electronics, but still, the propellers, motors and chassis were all Lego, which is I think is pretty cool.

[MinusAndy]

6 minutes ago, Lasse D said:

There is another aspect which we have not yet mentioned when considering constructive feedback. Many of us do not have English as our native language. A short comment on a moc can be made with the best of intend, but cut short and be using less flowery wording simply because of the lack of experience with the language. I would rather have short an honest answers than having people keep their silence in fear for being misunderstood.

 

This is a really great point.

the drummer in my band is Hungarian and an incredible drummer. His English is also pretty good, good enough as we frequently forget that he isn’t English, particularly on our online discussion. However, his English falls down on nuance and colloquialisms and it often causes situations that we have to sort out down the pub with a beer. 
the cultural differences are apparent too. He is very matter of fact and it often comes across as rude but it’s not, it’s just his general culture is more matter of fact and it gets lost in translation.

these things are all fine face to face but when you don’t have that option things can get very messy and no one argues like middle aged men on the internet!!!

However... if you’re taking it really personally when another grown adult is rubbishing your idea/building technique on an Internet forum where we are all nerds messing about with kids toys you maybe need to have a bit of an assessment of what is really important. The same goes for if you see an idea someone else has done and you’re getting on your high horse about it, equally, have a word with yourself. Being best at Lego is like winning the paralympics. You may have won but.......

I don’t think a beginners forum is a good idea either as as soon as someone decides that someone’s moc belongs in the beginners section and the creator disagrees it will be the exact same situation but with a concrete parameter to use in an “argument”.

[Mechbuilds]

Just to throw my 2 cents here.. 

I agree with jim about the constructive criticism. Imagine if you were a 12 year old posting your first moc here, not knowing much yet. And then somebody would tell you that your stuff will never work and you can't build anything right, you should just completely disassemble that horrible contraption before anybody else copies it. 
The soulcrushing criticism like that would pretty much deter newbies out of the forum and post somewhere else. 

The forum has raised it's bar a lot and every moc here is pretty much built by a "professionals". What i mean about that is that every moc here are pretty much done with 100's of hours and fine tuned and polished to look amazing. 
There aren't any wip threads anymore. Don't know if having a newbie subforum would fix the issue but i would suggest a wip subforum where newbies can make threads, get help, and not feel bad if they don't finish their builds. 
Because even if you don't finish your build, you still learn new techniques. Perhaps you started to build something and you find out a flaw on it's scale or features that can't be fixed in that scale and you have to choose to either finish it while compromising or disassemble it and build something else. Why people do this is basically because the forum has raised it's bar so high that your crappy compromise of a moc is not even worth the time when there are pretty much almost photorealistic mocs here. 

I think that a wip subforum would get much more action with newbies learning things and giving help to eachother. 

[Sariel]

1 hour ago, chekitch said:

Like @CalimeroLego, I don't think the MOCs I finished are worthy of a topic. They'd probably only make @Sariel facepalm and for a good reason

@chekitch Don't worry about that, I put you on my non-facepalming list ;) Frankly, it's not the topics by beginners that are so jarring, it's usually posts from seasoned builders who suddenly do weird stuff or the inevitable 200-th remake of the "let's make LEGO fly" thread. We all started somewhere and nobody should disregard you just for being a beginner.

[MinusAndy]

Maybe a pro section rather than a beginners section would work? 
criteria being if you have made instructions and are charging money for them then your moc goes in a pro section. 
that would avoid the woolly definition of what a beginner moc is.

[zoo]

12 minutes ago, MinusAndy said:

Maybe a pro section rather than a beginners section would work? 
criteria being if you have made instructions and are charging money for them then your moc goes in a pro section. 
that would avoid the woolly definition of what a beginner moc is.

Was just about to write the same thing. Good thinking! :)

[allanp]

I dunno. Something about separating beginners and pros feels a little off to me. I mean, there are very talented "beginners" and there "pros" that are not inspiring at all. There are great MOCs, and not so great MOCs and everything in between. Too much variety and too many different criteria that we as individuals use to base our opinions on to pigeon hole things into beginner and pro. I doubt we could agree on what makes a MOC or a builder fall into those categories anyway. For example, just because someone charged money for barely understandable instructions for a poorly designed MOC doesn't make them a pro in my eyes.

[doug72]

I thought the 2nd Pinned topic at top of page 1 was there for HELP !

[howitzer]

More pinned topics is a bad idea, because it puts more and more interesting topics to the second page, depriving them the attention they deserve. If more pinned topics have to be added, I'd rather see a subforum created for them.

Rather than splitting the users to pro/not pro categories, I'd like to encourage more comments and exchange of thoughts. WIP-topics are great in this regard, and it would be nice to see also the highly skilled members of the forum posting WIP-topics, as that would present opportunities for others to learn about their design and building process.

As for the instructions sellers, it's nice to see especially well-designed B/C-models and their instructions being posted here but even with those there should be more "meat" in the post than just photos and a link to the seller's website as this forum shouldn't be just a platform for advertisement. Exchange of thoughts, ideas and feedback is after all the main purpose of this forum and also its main advantage over Youtube and other platforms.

[Kostq]

I think thread development too is a bit off lately.

TL:DR - MOC creation takes lots of time and if you want to make a good discussion you'll need to spend that time twice. If you want a good/great looking MOC - triple that time. People don't bother that much IMHO so here we are...

Long version is: Here is how I use the forum - mostly visually to check the following /20m before bedtime/:

1. Whether Lego has put out good Technic stuff /1H, 2H spoilers/ or not
2. MOCs of other people and I skimp the walls of text, mainly look at the pictures just for the eyecandy and inspiration
3. I skip totally GBC as I know if I get invested in it I'll have no living place for myself and will only build these. I do look at GBC videos, as they mesmerise me a lot.
4. Check the long-lasting topics of the well-established MOC guys here and you know who these are

So far I've seen the following

1. t's actually the seasoned guys that provide /any/ logs and any visual storytelling /it seems/
2. The only time the forum comes alive is for the Technic Challenges, of which there hasn't been one lately
3. People /on RB/ are putting lots and lots of hours into MOCs and here they only post like 2 pictures of them
4. Monetizing your MOCs is lucrative as ****. So why not, you've spent the time anyway.
5. MOCs are EXPENSIVE AF. IF you don't live in a country with good enough BL coverage and/or good prices - you're screwed.
   In Bulgaria we have like 10 BL stores and one of them charges you 20-25c for a friggin 2l and 3l pins.
   SOOO it's cheaper and more efficient to just build C models /which limits the end results somewhat.
   They are uglier, limited in functions and harder to get people discussing if they're not based on 2000+ parts set with many gears.
6. People have some "rule" that a MOC is too expensive if it's more than 10-15% of the cost of the original set.
   I've experimented with my prices on RB and have some stats on this.
   If you do this for the money at some point you get really discouraged to continue to bother at all.
   Making the PDFs and all the renders and uploads and so on. It's marketing and it takes time.
7. Making a topic and gathering photos itself is tiresome for bigger sets.
   For a simple 500-700pcs set to be well received virtually here you need:
   proper lighting
   some editing skills
   good angles
   almost mandatory video what the model does, and so on.
   It's not time actually building and it's just more "work". I do enjoy this part, but looking at people's reactions around me those hours are rightfully wasted.

 

With my posts I've understood the following:

1. You must put something on the table to discuss, otherwise your topic goes to the drain of "seen"s and one or two "great build" posts
2. Most of the time the "life" of an update is about 24h, then you move to page 2 and it's gone
3. Either bore everyone out with constant minor updates or leave your topic to rot around for two months and upload the final MOC
4. Feedback while you're still building them makes MOCs better and for now my roommate and my GF provide some final touches on my MOCs,
   Forum here helped me choose a design element for my VW camper and it did stick to the end. But that's one of 19 MOCs.

 

 

[chekitch]

2 hours ago, Sariel said:

@chekitch Don't worry about that, I put you on my non-facepalming list ;) Frankly, it's not the topics by beginners that are so jarring, it's usually posts from seasoned builders who suddenly do weird stuff or the inevitable 200-th remake of the "let's make LEGO fly" thread. We all started somewhere and nobody should disregard you just for being a beginner.

That is a relief  

1 hour ago, allanp said:

I dunno. Something about separating beginners and pros feels a little off to me. I mean, there are very talented "beginners" and there "pros" that are not inspiring at all. There are great MOCs, and not so great MOCs and everything in between. Too much variety and too many different criteria that we as individuals use to base our opinions on to pigeon hole things into beginner and pro. I doubt we could agree on what makes a MOC or a builder fall into those categories anyway. For example, just because someone charged money for barely understandable instructions for a poorly designed MOC doesn't make them a pro in my eyes.

That is why I'd rather have a topic and not a subforum..  

1 hour ago, Doug72 said:

I thought the 2nd Pinned topic at top of page 1 was there for HELP !

Yes, but with some things I build, I don't need help. I just build it goofy and fun and I don't care. And I don't have 20 pics and a video and am not doing the instructions.. I don't want to sell it, I don't think it is something great that needs a topic. But I'd share 3 pics and explain if someone thought it has something he likes... 

 

Edited November 16, 2020 by chekitch