Torn Between Supercars

[thekoRngear]

Hopefully I will be able to get one of these supercars:

1. Cada Master C61042, designed by Bruno Jenson. Manufactured by Cada

2. Lego Technic 42115 Sian FKP 37

I have been wanting to have a Lego Technic supercar for so long, but their limited play-ability always puts me off. Sure, jb70 pimp ups can help improve this segment but buying parts from here is tough. Also I dont have that many spare parts. The Cada one has RC with 3k plus parts, its speed seemed okay to me, but I am afraid some specific parts are not up to the mark i.e., the axle-pin connectors. On the other hand, the Sian is a more challenging build with higher parts which are obviously of higher quality. Bruno has done a brilliant job but above mentioned issue is quite concerning. Cada one is selling for 187£ pound on amazon UK and the Sian is currently at 239£.

I am also thinking about getting an RC non Lego Toy like the Huina ones and the Technic Sian together alternatively.

[JintaiZ]

Both sets are great, so it depends on what you are looking for in the build. The Sian definitely has better brick/instructions quality, but the CaDA model has better playability. Though I'd grab the Sian first if it's on sale!

Edited February 24, 2021 by JintaiZ

[Erik Leppen]

I had a similar feeling with the Chiron, which I really wanted but I found it too expensive. In the end, I bought it a year after it came out or so, when a nearby store had a nice discount. So you can also choose to just wait, and see if any of the two sets comes by at a better price next year. Who knows.

I don't think we can really help you make the choice between one set or the other... I can remember i was a bit underwhelmed by the Chiron's design, but I have the feeling that the Sian is better designed (and I had a lot of fun redesigning the Chiron, so at the end, it was still money well spent). So a lot depends on what you want to do with your set. (and if you mind mixing parts of different brands).

[amorti]

Part count doesn't tell you everything: 8 of the CaDA model's pieces are 4 motors, 2 LEDs, a Bluetooth battery box and a remote. Whilst the CaDA model is £50 less in the pricing you've quoted, it has way more value even with a few hundred fewer parts.

Granted some of those parts do leave something to be desired, if the reviews are correct (and I don't see why they wouldn't be).

That being said, Lego has its own issues with QC in terms of colour matching. Even so, if you want resale value, you have to get the Lego model.

If you want playability, I don't see how you can beat an RC model with a gearbox that shifts while driving, and moves the paddles when it does it.

I made my choice. My block toys are toys even after I've finished building them, not just dust gatherers. So my CaDA red supercar arrived today :)

[Bartybum]

CaDA's quality is mostly under control. There's very few pieces that have problems, and the guys at Double E (CaDA's parent company) are generally happy to send you replacements.

That being said, sustainability and labour rights are something that I consider quite important, and Lego is big on the first and runs under laws that enforce the second. I have no idea about CaDA, but I don't think they care as much or are as bound by labour laws (China's not big on labour rights afaik, which keeps its market dominance).

[thekoRngear]

Its both quite amazing and amusing to see we are asking for recommendations between Lego and another brick manufacturer. I always think about choosing between Lego ones. And now I am thinking about the Sian and Cada.

Another concern that I forgot to add is that, how interesting it is to build one over the other? I built Defender and enjoyed every moment of it. I saw Bruno supercar build video from youtube like Brickbuilder and ALF. With no offence, I guess the Cada supercar's building process has a bit less enjoyable moments compared to Sian. But then again the end product is one red hot beauty. Someone who built it either from Lego or the Cada can tell it better actually I guess.

I personally wont sell either piece of the beauties. Buying Lego here is a lengthy and expensive process. I keep my Defender on the shelf, take it out occasionally to play with it. Want to do the same with a supercar, albeit with limited functionalities. And yes, doing something different is also in my mind.

Thanks to all for the insights so far....

@amorti great to see you got your package. We will see how the story unfolds... 

[MinusAndy]

What about the blue Cada supercar? It seems to fill your needs. It’s a lambo and has a high part count and functionality.

[thekoRngear]

30 minutes ago, MinusAndy said:

What about the blue Cada supercar? It seems to fill your needs. It’s a lambo and has a high part count and functionality.

That's very good. However, according to Hwbricks (also known as ALF, both are same I think) it has stability issues. The part quality consistencies also seem better in Bruno Supercar.

[howitzer]

7 hours ago, Bartybum said:

CaDA's quality is mostly under control. There's very few pieces that have problems, and the guys at Double E (CaDA's parent company) are generally happy to send you replacements.

That being said, sustainability and labour rights are something that I consider quite important, and Lego is big on the first and runs under laws that enforce the second. I have no idea about CaDA, but I don't think they care as much or are as bound by labour laws (China's not big on labour rights afaik, which keeps its market dominance).

Sustainability and labour rights are one reason I'm sticking to Lego for now. I consider building blocks in any form more a luxury product than anything essential, and when I'm shopping for luxury product, I want to support the more ethical company over those of dubious practices or outright unethical ones. Now, I'm not accusing CaDA of anything here, it's just that they are an unknown company to me and I have no idea how they conduct their business.

One should of course also ask, why is the CaDA model less expensive than Lego model? That price difference has to come from somewhere. I have no answer though, and I'd rather not speculate too much.

[amorti]

13 minutes ago, howitzer said:

One should of course also ask, why is the CaDA model less expensive than Lego model? That price difference has to come from somewhere. I have no answer though, and I'd rather not speculate too much.

I think it's legitimate to speculate.

Lego employs full-time designers, and there will have been several working on the Sian. There's also videos where the guys made physical trips to the factory and worked with the car designer. Brunojj1was cheaper to pay as a "gig" than that could possibly be.

Lego has paid licensing fees to Lamborghini, CaDA has paid none. However I don't think this can come close to accounting for the price difference. Keep in mind the original retail price here, not the heavily discounted price the OP is quoting.

Lego's pricing policy is horrible. Nearly every (probably every?) model eventually gets to -30% on Amazon, whether that's after a spell as a Lego shop exclusive or not. So why not just start the pricing at -20% and thereby support smaller retailers who stick to the suggested prices?

The argument about the cost of designing new elements can also be dismissed, since MouldKing's Lamborghini was very cheap compared to Lego's, and contained 3(?) pairs of new panels.

Part production is now mostly done by Lego in China. So that argument of cheap Chinese production costs for CaDA can be dismissed too.

Paying more for a premium product? Tough sell. The CaDA packaging is pretty sweet. Lego has colour matching issues which are very noticeable on the display shelf.

Idk... I can speculate as well as the next guy, but I don't have the answers.

Edited November 1, 2020 by amorti

[Bartybum]

1 hour ago, howitzer said:

One should of course also ask, why is the CaDA model less expensive than Lego model? That price difference has to come from somewhere. I have no answer though, and I'd rather not speculate too much.

It’d be labour rights, cost of living and also the immense network of infrastructure China’s manufacturing and shipping industries have

[Gray Gear]

LEGO also spends a pretty penny on advertisements, especially for these 1:8 Supercars like the Chiron or the Sian. That must not be cheap. Cada on the other hand does not have any advertisement expenses. They just grow on their brand reputation and us enthusiasts talking about it.

[Lipko]

Interesting that once I commented that I wouldn't want to mix Lego with non-Lego parts due to compatibility issues so I will no likely start to build up a whole parallel collection. Everyone defended Cada that it is perfectly exchangeable with Lego. Now it seems that it's obvious that some Cada parts have quality issues.
So what's the deal?

On how interesting the build is: making building instruction is another (almost independent) creative job that needs a lot of time to get right. I took a look at many instructions (free and paid), and I've found a very small number of interesting ones. For most MOCers (and instruction makers) instruction making seems to be only a necessary nuisance. There are awesome models from the most highly respected designers where the car is almost literally build from back to front or bottom to top. Like 3D printing. That's not interesting and certainly not the realistic way car is built.

Edited November 1, 2020 by Lipko

[Bartybum]

48 minutes ago, Lipko said:

Everyone defended Cada that it is perfectly exchangeable with Lego. Now it seems that it's obvious that some Cada parts have quality issues. So what's the deal?

It's perfectly exchangeable in that the parts are the same size and work well enough together. The only issue is that a few of the pieces have some slight tolerancing issues, but it's generally nothing to fret about.

[MinusAndy]

2 hours ago, Bartybum said:

It's perfectly exchangeable in that the parts are the same size and work well enough together. The only issue is that a few of the pieces have some slight tolerancing issues, but it's generally nothing to fret about.

Definitely. I’ll use Rego lift arms, panels etc but the consistent quality of Lego pins and gears is hard to beat (except those shonky tan bevels)

[thekoRngear]

I think Cada's releasing a well known MOCer's design is a missed opportunity for Lego. Let me explain it a bit, Lego could have taken a very different approach with their UCS lineup. They could have introduced unique and very powerful motors and a batterybox Exclusive to the Supercar series. I think it could well differentiate the product line to the targeted adult audiences. For past 4/5 years the supercars makers are approaching motors and batteries whereas, Lego is going full force in developing insane drivetrain with highly complex gearbox which in practicality has little to no value. Please dont get enraged who are MOCers and look for new parts questioning the introduction of unique motor parts limiting their uses in diverse set of MOC ideas. The price they could charge would also be justified to some extent. But, my point have the following shortcomings/challenges:

1. The cost of producing/developing such unique motorization. I know Buwizz is a bit expensive.

2. Offsetting other expenditures like marketing etc.

I personally think Bugatti is highly resold because once it is built, the  appeal is mostly gone for the average Adults. Sure, there are people who would not mind keeping it as a dust gatherer, or would rebuild it once in i.e., 3/6 months (could be more frequent than that). I am not talking about the MOCers here. Now, I think there are average adults who just dont want it sitting idle collecting dust. They want play-ability, and also, they dont want to pay extra penny to buy additional parts, nor do they want to modify it extensively. With no offence, I think these people are at least, not the smallest portion of the targeted adult audiences.

[Lipko]

I don't think that an AFOL plays that much with a remote control model either, maybe for 60  seconds (if it's not super fast or super strong, something you cannot expect from a Lego model).

[amorti]

4 hours ago, Lipko said:

I don't think that an AFOL plays that much with a remote control model either, maybe for 60  seconds (if it's not super fast or super strong, something you cannot expect from a Lego model).

Super strong:

For this reason I have didumos greyhound (with 4* high power MouldKing L motors) on the shelf, controlled with 2 buwizz and a gamepad.

Super fast:

For this reason I have Koncept Mantis (4* MouldKing high power L motors) and the MouldKing knock off of Madoca's pf buggy (2* MouldKing high speed L motors). Mantis is happy to drift any time you provoke it, the pf buggy doesn't want to do anything else.

Probably this proves your point, since all those are much more powerful than any original Lego set. 

[howitzer]

On 11/1/2020 at 11:25 AM, amorti said:

I think it's legitimate to speculate.

Lego employs full-time designers, and there will have been several working on the Sian. There's also videos where the guys made physical trips to the factory and worked with the car designer. Brunojj1was cheaper to pay as a "gig" than that could possibly be.

Lego has paid licensing fees to Lamborghini, CaDA has paid none. However I don't think this can come close to accounting for the price difference. Keep in mind the original retail price here, not the heavily discounted price the OP is quoting.

Lego's pricing policy is horrible. Nearly every (probably every?) model eventually gets to -30% on Amazon, whether that's after a spell as a Lego shop exclusive or not. So why not just start the pricing at -20% and thereby support smaller retailers who stick to the suggested prices?

The argument about the cost of designing new elements can also be dismissed, since MouldKing's Lamborghini was very cheap compared to Lego's, and contained 3(?) pairs of new panels.

Part production is now mostly done by Lego in China. So that argument of cheap Chinese production costs for CaDA can be dismissed too.

Paying more for a premium product? Tough sell. The CaDA packaging is pretty sweet. Lego has colour matching issues which are very noticeable on the display shelf.

Idk... I can speculate as well as the next guy, but I don't have the answers.

Let us speculate then!

Employing full-time designers is no doubt more expensive than buying single design from an outsider, though it's hard to say how much that affects the final price. I also have to wonder how this works out in longer term? New designs are be needed constantly, and also at some point the really skilled independent designers will probably notice and start to ask for higher prices. Professional designers hired for long term can also probably squeeze the production cost lower, which isn't a big deal when producing small batches, but for an industry giant like TLG cost-effectiveness of a design is a huge factor in the bottom line.

License adds to cost, and UCS cars are definitely marketed as a luxury product with luxury price, even among their other products (and all of Lego can be considered a premium product too) so it's no wonder that Sian is much more expensive than for example Rough Terrain Crane though the latter has more parts and even electronics.

The pricing policy has baffled me to no end, vast majority of sets are much more expensive in TLG's own online store, and that applies to most specialized stores and supermarkets too (which often have discounts but also much more limited selection). Then there's some stores which sell Lego for 20-30% less without any special discounts, so why would I buy anything from elsewhere? Also TLG seems to value their electronics ridiculously high, which is probably why the CaDA model isn't that expensive though it's fully RC.

About the new elements, I believe MouldKing's Lambo was unlicensed, and of much poorer quality than Lego, so naturally it was also much cheaper. New panels aren't free of course, but new Lego parts are usually very carefully designed and of course high quality, so that has to cost a lot. Lego doesn't seem to like making one-use parts, and the new moulds for Sian were very much reusable in other models too. They only create one-use parts when it's unavoidable, like the cement mixing drum part.

I think most of Lego parts are manufactured in Europe (Denmark and Hungary I believe) and America (Mexico I believe), only some in China, so labour cost is probably much higher than competitors with Chinese manufacturers. I also believe that there are different kinds of work environments in China, so if TLG used Chinese manufacturers, one might imagine they'd choose the better ones.

As for the premium products... Lego is such in itself, and maybe they think they can sell similar product for higher price, out of reputation, brand loyalty and such. Time will tell how the new competitors change the market and the value customers feel they get from Lego as compared to others.

And yeah, all of this is just me as a random guy in the Internet speculating about stuff. So no real answers here, just speculation.

[amorti]

@howitzer

Just speculation is fine, what else is the internet for?

Re the MouldKing lambo, I think you underestimate MK. I don't know much of it firsthand but I've seen some reviews online in English and German. The model seems decently designed although maybe not as thoroughly considered as TLG's. It has 4*4*4 with RC and a motor-driven manually-selected gearbox to operate the auxiliary functions. I've built a few large MK kits, and the part quality is so close to TLG's that if you built without looking, you wouldn't know a difference. Definitely better quality and (more importantly) more consistently good than CaDA.

Why would you assume the new MK panels are poor quality? The Chinese can do CAD as well as the next guy.

[Gray Gear]

Mould King often uses bricks from GoBricks, and they are the best there is in the chinese brick universe. Maybe 99% LEGO quality. Never had a problem with GoBricks pieces ever, and I ordered quite a few.

[howitzer]

4 hours ago, amorti said:

@howitzer

Just speculation is fine, what else is the internet for?

Re the MouldKing lambo, I think you underestimate MK. I don't know much of it firsthand but I've seen some reviews online in English and German. The model seems decently designed although maybe not as thoroughly considered as TLG's. It has 4*4*4 with RC and a motor-driven manually-selected gearbox to operate the auxiliary functions. I've built a few large MK kits, and the part quality is so close to TLG's that if you built without looking, you wouldn't know a difference. Definitely better quality and (more importantly) more consistently good than CaDA.

Why would you assume the new MK panels are poor quality? The Chinese can do CAD as well as the next guy.

Ok then, I thought MK was a successor to Lepin, which was known as a complete ripoff company so I'd expect their successor to be of similar, at least as far as quality is concerned. But maybe I was wrong to assume that.

Part design requires more than knowledge of CAD though, the designer has to be familiar with Lego (or whatever) and know how the elements connect, where the stress points are and so on, so I don't think it could be done with just some 3D-modeling experience. Not to say that the Chinese couldn't do it, just that it takes some effort and knowledge, and whoever hires the designer has to commit into finding someone skilled enough to do it properly - if they want high quality parts.

[Bartybum]

10 hours ago, howitzer said:

Employing full-time designers is no doubt more expensive than buying single design from an outsider, though it's hard to say how much that affects the final price. I also have to wonder how this works out in longer term?

(Using Aus prices here because I'm an Aussie) If you pay three designers $90k a year each to design a $600 car over the course of two years ($540k total in wages), then to pay the designers off you only need to sell 900 copies of the set internationally. I agree with the notion that for TLG there's a whole lot more to it than just the labour costs. No idea about CaDA/DoubleE though.

[howitzer]

5 hours ago, Bartybum said:

(Using Aus prices here because I'm an Aussie) If you pay three designers $90k a year each to design a $600 car over the course of two years ($540k total in wages), then to pay the designers off you only need to sell 900 copies of the set internationally. I agree with the notion that for TLG there's a whole lot more to it than just the labour costs. No idea about CaDA/DoubleE though.

Labour cost is more than wage though. The company has to arrange working environment, like office, furniture, etc. and tools (probably computers & such in this case). Then there's insurances, and depending on country, maybe some other tax-like fees that the company has to pay. Buying from an independent designer avoids all these costs, as it's the designer who pays for them. Total labour cost varies heavily depending on profession, but it can be twice or even triple the wage per employee. One must also remember that TLG's designers work in Denmark, which is a country with high income tax and the designers are still quite a well paid.

Also, I've come to understand that TLG supercars generally take something like two years to design, and multiple professional designers are employed on it (three I think?) so the hired designer cost is not insignificant.

Detailed calculation is impossible due to the huge number of variables and unknowns, but if we assume that total labour cost is twice the salary and in Denmark a designer gets paid about 3500€/month (after income tax deduction), the monthly total cost would be 7000€/month/designer. So three designer and two years would make up about 500 000€ in labour cost of design for Sian. In a set's price there's of course production and logistics costs, and various taxes, duties and such when you considers international trade, plus marketing and all that so if a set costs 380€ in TLG's own webstore (Finland's price) I'd guess something like 80% of that is production, logistics, marketing and taxes, which leaves 76€. 500 000€/76€ make about 6579 sold units to cover the designer cost before the product starts turning profit. This seems to be quite a big amount, considering it's definitely a very expensive thing for an average person to buy. 

My calculation might of course be off in many places, I'm not sure if the three designers work full time for two years on this project, they might work on other projects too. The wage estimate is something that a university trained engineer might be paid here in Finland, but it could also be higher or lower. Other labour costs are even harder to estimate, maybe they are significantly lower for an office-worker like TLG's designers, who knows. The biggest uncertainty is of course in the complete guesswork involved in estimating other costs, so it might be off the mark a lot. I also have no idea what's the expected sales amount worldwide before the set is retired. Maybe it's tens of thousands, which makes the design cost significant, maybe it's in the millions which would dwarf the design cost to a rounding error.

[Bartybum]

@howitzer Agree with everything you said. There's a lot going on with pricing