New 9v motor

[Silly_donkey]

This is just a feeler question, how much interest would there be in a third party 9v motor made by a known model train manufacturer? Metal wheels for pickup and DCC ready. What do you think?

[GianCann]

Why not?...

[Silly_donkey]

1 minute ago, GianCann said:

Why not?...

That’s my thought. But as always, there’s cost and time that limits manufacturers willingness to make a new product. I’m seeing if enough interest can convince them. 

[GianCann]

The problem in not only in the motor, but also in the train ttack for 9v.

[Henry 991]

2 hours ago, Silly_donkey said:

This is just a feeler question, how much interest would there be in a third party 9v motor made by a known model train manufacturer? Metal wheels for pickup and DCC ready. What do you think?

I have been thinking of that As well. A game-changer would be a 2-stud long, geared high-torque motor that could attach directly into axle. In bigger engines, you could have up to 6 of them.

I wouldn’t need the power pickup from the rails. LiPo batteries, voltage regular and a controller (FX Brick etc.) woul work finewith me.

I have not yet found a suitable RC motor or gearing. For my own use, I would print the enclosure.

Best,

Henry

[Andy Glascott]

I'd be interested alright. I have plenty of 9v track for my needs but motors are beginning to wear out and I'm trying to stick with just the 2 power/control systems on my layout (12v and 9v) rather than add another one in. 

[Silly_donkey]

Aftermarket 9v track is becoming available again. ME Models, Ok Brickworks, FxBrix, BrickTracks all are trying. But nothing has really been done for the motors/drives. What I’m thinking would be something similar to the 9v motor that is already in existence. It’d be a “drive”. 4 metal wheels on 2 axles that are geared with a motor. 4 wires on the motor so you can add DCC or charge a battery, add lights or whatever. All in an abs enclosure. 

[coaster]

Considering how many builders don't use the normal train motor, this would be a poor venture.   A better approach would be a power pickup wheelset that could feed directly to a motor, an IR reciever, or a DCC node.

We made prototypes of a power pick up wheelset, but it would be costly to tool.  We would also need Fx Bricks to come through on 9V tracks.  I hope they do, but we abandoned making them as we just couldn't justify the cost. 

It's a fine idea overall, but there aren't enough of us to make it viable.  You're talking about a huge capital investment without enough of us LEGO train nerds to warrant it. Not to mention, it'd be an entirely new system, so you'd have to convince everyone to effectively start over, which will be a tough sell.

[Silly_donkey]

3 minutes ago, coaster said:

Considering how many builders don't use the normal train motor, this would be a poor venture.   A better approach would be a power pickup wheelset that could feed directly to a motor, an IR reciever, or a DCC node.

We made prototypes of a power pick up wheelset, but it would be costly to tool.  We would also need Fx Bricks to come through on 9V tracks.  I hope they do, but we abandoned making them as we just couldn't justify the cost. 

It's a fine idea overall, but there aren't enough of us to make it viable.  You're talking about a huge capital investment without enough of us LEGO train nerds to warrant it. Not to mention, it'd be an entirely new system, so you'd have to convince everyone to effectively start over, which will be a tough sell.

Ok so then you are saying a dummy drive with no motor just metal wheels and pickups in an enclosure would be more desirable? 
 

I don’t see it as a new system per se, more like a supplement to everything else out there. Want to connect it to a motor? Not a problem. Want to use it as a battery charger? Not a problem. Want to connect it to a PFx brick, S brick, DCC node, IR receiver or a laser cannon? Probably not a problem. 
 

The resources are there in the model train world. The two worlds don’t intersect well, but an off the shelf application from the model train world might fit the lego community. 
 

What about the other way around? An O gauge drive to mount Lego on?

[coaster]

It is a new system because it would require everyone to replace all of their PF track.  Granted, some LUGs may still have a few ballasted 9V track sections, but overall you'd be asking for them to rip it all up and relay their tracks.

Unfortunately, we're all about 20 years too late to this party.  The time to get this done would have been before 9V was discontinued and still ubiquitous in the field.  

I'm not trying to be a downer or discourage anyone from pursuing it.  It's a phenomenal idea and exactly what the community needs.  There just aren't enough of us.  I'm really not kidding when I say you are talking about a quarter-million dollar project, if not half-million.

If 9V tracks do come online, then there is a chance.  If it does, I will restart my power pickups project, which, if you haven't seen it, looks like this:

 

Old version, but illustrates the point.

 

[Silly_donkey]

Just now, coaster said:

It is a new system because it would require everyone to replace all of their PF track.  Granted, some LUGs may still have a few ballasted 9V track sections, but overall you'd be asking for them to rip it all up and relay their tracks.

Unfortunately, we're all about 20 years too late to this party.  The time to get this done would have been before 9V was discontinued and still ubiquitous in the field.  

I'm not trying to be a downer or discourage anyone from pursuing it.  It's a phenomenal idea and exactly what the community needs.  There just aren't enough of us.  I'm really not kidding when I say you are talking about a quarter-million dollar project, if not half-million.

If 9V tracks do come online, then there is a chance.  If it does, I will restart my power pickups project, which, if you haven't seen it, looks like this:

 

Old version, but illustrates the point.

 

I get it. 9v is dead, blah blah. I know you have spent a lot of time energy and money on trying to revive it and now have given up. I’m not arguing that Lego has moved on and modelers have embraced plastic track. I just want to know, would you buy it as an option for the 9v track you have?

[JopieK]

I did experiments with DCC but there is an other problem, LEGO trains are not heavy enough: the signals are not really reliable. So your best option would be to use powered up.

[Silly_donkey]

7 minutes ago, JopieK said:

I did experiments with DCC but there is an other problem, LEGO trains are not heavy enough: the signals are not really reliable. So your best option would be to use powered up.

I respect everyone on this forum. I have gained some real insight from your experiences, experiments and investments. You guys have really put in the work. I know this. And maybe that’s where the “just give up and use Powered Up” mentality comes from. You’re tired of trying to make 9v work. I believe it has followers still, though, as coaster acknowledged. Thanks for your supporting words coaster. 
Powered Up can still be used with power pickups or a 9v motor drive. Who wouldn’t want a 9v bit of track to charge the batteries so you don’t have to rip the powered up battery pack out? You could do that. Weight is an issue, but Lego trains have been weighted before. And if metal wheel sets are available, not unlike what coaster has worked on, it becomes less of a problem. 
 

Has anyone besides coaster mocked up a truck that would hold standard model train wheels and axles? 

[ivanlan9]

I'd be very interested, but note that ME Models and its track is dead, dead, dead.  And even if they came back, I would avoid them strenuously--too many horror stories and too much ill-treatment of paying customers.

I'm of the opinion that the only way we're likely to get 9V track is for someone to make injection-molded ties of various sizes with grippers to slide onto code 250 rails. Then we could make our own track!

You'd need regular ties, plus shorter and longer ones to allow for turnout ties, as well as crossings, 90° and otherwise.

Metta,

Ivan

[Silly_donkey]

55 minutes ago, ivanlan9 said:

I'd be very interested, but note that ME Models and its track is dead, dead, dead.  And even if they came back, I would avoid them strenuously--too many horror stories and too much ill-treatment of paying customers.

I'm of the opinion that the only way we're likely to get 9V track is for someone to make injection-molded ties of various sizes with grippers to slide onto code 250 rails. Then we could make our own track!

You'd need regular ties, plus shorter and longer ones to allow for turnout ties, as well as crossings, 90° and otherwise.

Metta,

Ivan

Yes ME Models is gone. You would need a rail bender for what you are proposing. I think that was part of the ME Models issue, getting decent clutch to have the whole assembly stay together. BrickTracks looked like it solved that problem but... too much money. 

[ivanlan9]

Not only a rail bender, you'd also need a decent soldering iron, grinder (and jigs) and other tools in order to make your own turnout frogs, guardrails and so on.  You would have also needed these tools for the ME track, but as I recall the rail itself was not code 250 but simple metal strips.  My memory might be wrong, of course.

Given the ties, it would be worth it.  But it's the ties that are the kicker.

Metta,

Ivan

[supertruper1988]

You will want to look at what FX Track is proposing. You will need a complete package. For anyone still on 9V they likely have motors and backups. Everyone else moved away around 2010 when LEGO stopped metal track production. 

As Coaster said, there is no real market for it. 

[Silly_donkey]

Wasn’t it metal strips with negative studs? That’s what attached to the tiles. 

1 minute ago, supertruper1988 said:

You will want to look at what FX Track is proposing. You will need a complete package. For anyone still on 9V they likely have motors and backups. Everyone else moved away around 2010 when LEGO stopped metal track production. 

As Coaster said, there is no real market for it. 

In the last 10 years there have been four systems for Lego trains that include motors, batteries and connections. Some play together and some don’t. Backwards compatibility for 9v is starting to disappear. Just like it did with 4.5/12v.  I don’t know how long Powered up will last. Model trains have been using metal rails since 1906. More than a hundred years. Seems like there would be a market. 

[JopieK]

3 hours ago, Silly_donkey said:

I respect everyone on this forum. I have gained some real insight from your experiences, experiments and investments. You guys have really put in the work. I know this. And maybe that’s where the “just give up and use Powered Up” mentality comes from. You’re tired of trying to make 9v work. I believe it has followers still, though, as coaster acknowledged. Thanks for your supporting words coaster. 
Powered Up can still be used with power pickups or a 9v motor drive. Who wouldn’t want a 9v bit of track to charge the batteries so you don’t have to rip the powered up battery pack out? You could do that. Weight is an issue, but Lego trains have been weighted before. And if metal wheel sets are available, not unlike what coaster has worked on, it becomes less of a problem. 
 

Has anyone besides coaster mocked up a truck that would hold standard model train wheels and axles? 

I just finished the new issue of a monthly Dutch model railroad hobby magazine. Have you ever felt a H0 or N locomotive? They are way heavier than a LEGO train. Of course you can weigh it down, but that will also have other disadvantages including the wear on plastic parts. I even milled (uh actually a colleague in Engineering school) my own wheels, I can ask them to mill loads of wheels if I like. It does work, but it is not very reliable. Also I don't see the advantages, especially nowadays when DCC (e.g. Lenz) decoders are still very expensive but microcontrollers (I teach embedded systems engineering) are really cheap. You can easily fit in powered up with e.g. Raspberry Pi, Arduino / ESP32 whatever. It becomes so much more versatile than using DCC. There are also issues with the tracks, the tracks need to have very good connections and 12V and 9V track is not really reliable connection wise as well. DCC is also getting older and BLE is really, really nice. Of course you could use e.g. 12V middle rails to recharge LiPo's etc. that would be a good idea and I tried that and it works well. Of course I don't say you should not experiment with DCC, please do, but I still have an Uhlenbrock unit and I'll give it to a colleague that does use DCC for his model trains since I think BLE / Powered Up is much better for my purposes. 

[Silly_donkey]

Bluetooth is great. Batteries are not. 

[dr_spock]

How about parts to rebuild broken 9V train motors and PF motors.  At one time I found the manufacturer of the can motor inside the PF M motors on aliexpress but have buy in quantities of 1000+ at wholesale.

[coaster]

3 hours ago, Silly_donkey said:

Wasn’t it metal strips with negative studs? That’s what attached to the tiles. 

In the last 10 years there have been four systems for Lego trains that include motors, batteries and connections. Some play together and some don’t. Backwards compatibility for 9v is starting to disappear. Just like it did with 4.5/12v.  I don’t know how long Powered up will last. Model trains have been using metal rails since 1906. More than a hundred years. Seems like there would be a market. 

Different power systems, but not track.  The 9V track system was introduced in '91 or so, and the "downgrade," if you will, to battery powered trains didn't force anyone to move to the plastic track as well.  The track changeover occured organically as LUGs expanded or rebuilt layouts and simply sold off the more expensive 9V track, but while that occurred the PF trains ran happily over the 9V rails.  Going the other way though would be a much greater burden, as now it is imperative you change the tracks too.

Would I use 9V tracks?  Absolutely, and still do.  I'm in the #9V4eva camp.  When you hear about LUGs dumping their 9V stuff, it's often me buying it. I can't even use the tracks I make!

9V isn't dead, but it is on life support.  It could be revived, but would require capital for tooling and patience.  From a passion for the hobby standpoint, no problem.  As a business decision though where you need to consider the return on investment, it's not very appealing.

If you can get 100 people to commit $5k, I can make it happen within maybe 2 years.  Heck, I'm in for it, so just need 99 more people.

[JWBDolphins]

17 hours ago, Silly_donkey said:

Metal wheels for pickup and DCC ready. What do you think?

My 2 cents. I Am one of your target audience.  Do I like the idea?, I think it would be Great.

BUT, would I buy it?  No.  Here's why.

I have a DCC system for HO trains and like it a lot.  Then I "discovered" LEGO trains at a local show around 2007.  I thought this is awesome! - I can buy this, convert to DCC myself....and then I talked to one of the displayers who said LEGO had just discontinued the 9V system.  So I had a choice to either snag up as much 9V track, switches, motors and controllers as I can or wait to see what LEGO does next.  I decided spending a lot of money on parts that were already obsolete and would only get rarer and more expensive as well as wear out wasn't an option for me.  Looking into it more, for me it became the right choice learning that the voltages and amperage LEGO motors use are higher than what a typical DCC system uses.  I haven't looked lately, but I don't think Lionel does DCC for their O gauge trains even today which is where I would have looked first.

Since that time I have amassed a decent collection of current LEGO plastic track.  I know you can attach copper strips with adhesive on one side over the plastic track but for what gain?, and how "good" does that look.  I have not (yet) tried 3rd party track so I cannot say how its quality is vs LEGO track, but I do know it will be prohibitively expensive for me to replace what I have with conductive track.

Add to that a problem that some steam MOCs can have with derailing going over LEGO 9V curved track in a certain direction and the thought of trying to cobble together a metal track layout from scratch is even less appealing.

IF LEGO were to return to a metal track system, then over time you would have an audience of new purchasers (including me) who would eventually be ready for this, but I don't see that on the horizon from LEGO.

Again, I think it is a Great Idea, but its the potential audience size that would be my number one concern.

 

1 hour ago, dr_spock said:

How about parts to rebuild broken 9V train motors and PF motors.

That was my initial thought.  I am all for do-it-yourself replacement parts that would be cheaper than buying new.  But that is also a niche market.

 

2 hours ago, Silly_donkey said:

Bluetooth is great. Batteries are not.

Bluetooth has its issues and there are other 3rd party control options out there.  I've had good luck with LiPo batteries (Educate yourself fully before going this route.)  My guess is there is a better future in different battery-powered control systems than creating a new DCC market where lack of conductive track would be the biggest hurdle.

That's my 2 cents at least...  

 

[Modeltrainman]

I'd be interested. I still prefer track power to batteries, but have 9V, Power Functions, and Powered Up, to keep running trains after my 9V transformers and things die.

[SteamSewnEmpire]

The mistake wasn't in the switch to batteries... it was making the rechargeable batteries rare and more expensive.

I don't think most Lego train folks would mind PU and PF so much if it didn't require constantly cracking open their models (even if you provide for it in the design, almost every loco needs some amount of fiddling to accomplish this) to replace the damned batteries (which are themselves costly over time). Moreover, we can't just run most batteries until they're dead - once the 'flashlight begins to dim,' out go the old ones, and in come a fresh set. 

What modern modelers want is the flexibility of battery systems (and the cheap track + lack of potential shorts) with easily-chargeable, port-based packs that can be 'topped off' at any time with a simple plug placed into a socket. This is the direction that the mainstream model railroading will almost certainly go - Lego should, frankly, already be there.

Edited October 3, 2020 by SteamSewnEmpire