Keybrick One / Rechargeable battery pack for Powered Up

[ruppie]

"Spread the word! Talk to other AFOLs about keybrick."

I think that is  one of the mayor problem about it: Marketing and advertising is only your tasks, not ours ! It  seems that you where pretty inactive and not very aware about it. We are not your sales department, in case  this was the misunderstanding.Your estimated sales price will be ~ 70€ ?!  Why you are wondering that we / potential Customer have some expectations about it.  

From my point of view you have set your focus towards some LEGO usegroups that are some type of closed "special clubs" with only little connection to the real word, by means  reaching a wider range of possible clients, the children  that owns this type of trains and their parents.

Example: In your video on kickstarter there are child playing with the LEGO Train. Which activities you made in this direction ? Same is never ending story of excuses, why not sing actual USB C connectors as most electronic developers to for new designs theses days.

 

For me it looks like a good idea in the beginning that have missed some importants requirements in the end. I wich you the very best, my advise would be, go back to workbench and do some refinement about electronic design and product presentation. From my point of view, a moulded case is a must for that price ! Why do you think we are interested in buying prototypes, or the rest of your development samples ? As you said in german "dr bricks" forum: .."We do not now how it will be continued if Kick starter fails".

When i compare all statments, and even the way the presentation on the youtube video ot the "austrian fan": It sounds to me that the people that are least convinced about the procuct are you !

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 1, 2020 by ruppie

[Stux]

Racing Brick review

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7TsMJHeNEfg

[keybrickone]

On 11/1/2020 at 10:09 AM, ruppie said:

"Spread the word! Talk to other AFOLs about keybrick."I think that is  one of the mayor problem about it: Marketing and advertising is only your tasks, not ours ! It  seems that you where pretty inactive and not very aware about it. We are not your sales department, in case  this was the misunderstanding.Your estimated sales price will be ~ 70€ ?!  Why you are wondering that we / potential Customer have some expectations about it.  

I have to agree that the formulation my teammate chose at that point was below par. In fairness though you are leaving out some context in the quote, which was a response to someone (rightfully) calling out the slow progress we made about 10 days into the campaign. Now as to our understanding of whose job marketing is, I think you're in a difficult place to exactly judge what went on behind the scenes. I'm not complaining and definitely don't want to sound whiny, but let's simply say that we faced more scepticism and gatekeepers than we anticipated, plus shipping out the review units was delayed significantly (they were shipped about 18 days late vs our initial plan) because of a manufacturing issue with the cases (which again, can be seen as our fault, launching the campaign earlier than we should have perhaps).

On 11/1/2020 at 10:09 AM, ruppie said:

From my point of view you have set your focus towards some LEGO usegroups that are some type of closed "special clubs" with only little connection to the real word, by means  reaching a wider range of possible clients, the children  that owns this type of trains and their parents.Example: In your video on kickstarter there are child playing with the LEGO Train. Which activities you made in this direction ?

A significant chunk of our advertising buget went in this direction with little return sadly. Seems to be that only a fraction of kids play enough for the battery thing to be a real issue (or people don't bother, idk) and the price probably exacerbates the point, making Keybrick a niche product (which was expected). As to why the kids are in the video: it's simply how the idea was sparked and we felt it was an adequate story to tell.

On 11/1/2020 at 10:09 AM, ruppie said:

Same is never ending story of excuses, why not sing actual USB C connectors as most electronic developers to for new designs theses days

Thanks for being rude. I'm not quite sure if, but I'm assuming that you already consider Keybrick in it's current state to be at least slightly overpriced for this part, if I'm wrong, please skip my following statement. It's not only about what is technically doable, but about economical viability. Swaping out that connector involves so much more than just exchanging a single part, especially if the customer - rightfully so - expects an actually electrically sound and standard-compliant device. Including changes is assembly cost (more parts, worse yield because of finer pitch connector and additional parts), accessories (type c cables cost roughtly two to three times as much) and the required engineering we'd have to increase the price of the device to a point very close to three figures. To me this change would be plain terrible value.

 

On 11/1/2020 at 10:09 AM, ruppie said:

Why do you think we are interested in buying prototypes, or the rest of your development samples ?

Where did I state that I'll be selling prototypes? All units that will ultimately be shipped will be as final versions as a small volume product can be. That they will most probably come with 3D printed case (not your typical FDM print having that said) is the only difference to what we wanted to do with an injection mould initially. On the other hand about half of the backers on Kickstarter explicitely chose to pledge on a reward that would have had a 3D printed case in any outcome for example, which makes me think that this might not be that big of an issue for the niche we are in.

If your comment was about me stating that we'll use the battery cells we already have on stock: these are not different from what we would have ordered if we needed thousands of them at once. If you're unfamilliar with how supplier parts are evaluated: you typically buy a sample big enough to be able to make statistically relevant testing on them, in this case we bought 60 cells from that supplier (not the only one we tested) and used about a third of them in our testing. The remaining 40-odd cells have been patiently waiting untouched since. These 40 packs are the ones that we would have shipped as "First Served" units in our Kickstarter - as we openly stated.

On 11/1/2020 at 10:09 AM, ruppie said:

As you said in german "dr bricks" forum: .."We do not now how it will be continued if Kick starter fails". When i compare all statments, and even the way the presentation on the youtube video ot the "austrian fan": It sounds to me that the people that are least convinced about the procuct are you !

This is simply us being honnest. The Kickstarter campaign was a market fit test first and foremost, even more than the chance to generate pre-orders. At the point in time I wrote the above sentence we were stuck at about 25% funding which was way below the point at which we would have considered it worth bothering with. Creating, maintaining and marketing a product requires considerable effort and as a small business we can't afford doing so for a product that seemed to gain little traction even with enthousiast. Now things have changed considerable in the last few days, with genuine interest and/or confidence sparked by the reviews that start showing up, as well as genuinely encouraging discussions with some resellers. We have to figure out a way to make the whole deal viable for them as well, which will be a challenge on its own, but we're definitely seeing things comming together (albeit in a slightly unexpected way).

9 hours ago, Stux said:

Racing Brick review

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7TsMJHeNEfg

Thanks for posting, didn't manage to do so yesterday.

[Tcm0]

I would have loved to back the campain but kickstarter only provides credit cards as payment option and I don't have one.

[Lok24]

Look here:

https://help.kickstarter.com/hc/de/articles/115005066453-Kann-ich-meinen-Finanzierungsbeitrag-per-Lastschrift-leisten-

[Stux]

Well, the kickstarter failed, but on the other hand it showed there were certainly some people willing to put down hard money in support of the idea, and surely as PUp takes off and given time and success there would be more demand.

What are you going to do now?

I personally would still be interested in 2-3 keybricks.

[legotownlinz]

On 10/28/2020 at 8:46 AM, keybrickone said:

Not as-is. The charger IC we're using has an operating range of 4.5V to 6V (it does withstand up to 10V on its input terminal without getting damaged, but stops charging once it reaches its over voltage protection threshold for safety reasons). So this would require an additional step down conversion from the input voltage to ~5V in addtion to the required bridge rectification to account for the changing polarity of the supply. None of this is particularly difficult or expensive to implement, but it wouldn't really fit into the available board space currently.

To be honnest, this is the sort of add-on we'd really like to offer if Keybrick comes to be at a sustainable scale! Noted it and will eventually look into the topic! Thanks

Only up to 6V charging voltage is one more reason to redesign the charging electronics because charging using power pickup wheels is definitely a must-have to be successful for the trains use-case. It should allow at least voltages in the range of 8 - 12 V. There are reference designs for USB-C, it shouldn't be too difficult to do and as I already made PCBs myself I know that PCBs are not expensive.

I've just had a look at your Kickstarter campaign and noticed that you are only asking for 9800 Euro. Just go to your bank and you'll get it. Or you ask someone to support the project. Imho setting up a Kickstarter campaign for such a low amount is a waste of money and time.

You'll definitely sell some units, the only risk is that Lego announces a similar product. PCBs and 3D printed parts can be produced economically at low quantities, so you can start small and grow if the product turns out to be successful.

[keybrickone]

7 hours ago, Stux said:

Well, the kickstarter failed, but on the other hand it showed there were certainly some people willing to put down hard money in support of the idea, and surely as PUp takes off and given time and success there would be more demand.

What are you going to do now?

I personally would still be interested in 2-3 keybricks.

We're currently busy setting up the shop on our website to make at least the "first served" units available for sale (should be ready in the next few days). Our conclusion from the Kickstarter campaign is, that there is genuine interest in the product, even if there's much room for niche needs that we won't be able to fulfill. Price is definitely an issue, but we're in a difficult spot with the quantities involved currently. Our main cost drivers at this stage at: regulations (standards confirmity, environmental and recycling), the case itself (currently accounting for about 50% of the BOM - and we have little wiggle-room for cheaper supply there as we use a Polyjet process for finish, material and durability reasons - not your typical home FDM print definitely) and the custom battery pack.

The 2-3 Keybricks will be available in the comming days as I said.

7 hours ago, legotownlinz said:

Only up to 6V charging voltage is one more reason to redesign the charging electronics because charging using power pickup wheels is definitely a must-have to be successful for the trains use-case. It should allow at least voltages in the range of 8 - 12 V. There are reference designs for USB-C, it shouldn't be too difficult to do and as I already made PCBs myself I know that PCBs are not expensive. 

This again boils down to cost. Building in a charger solution that is capable of dealing with the noisy power source that is pickup wheels requires far more attention than just "swapping out the chip with one that can handle up to 12V". The rectification and filtering necessary to make that power usable to such a finicky sink like a LiPo battery without damaging it would not even fit onto the available board space and further increase the cost for a feature that only a part of the customers is likely to use. I like the idea of having a possiblity to do so, but I guess it'll be more economical to have a "addon brick" that takes the suppy from the rails and offers a nice and clean USB output. That's more versatile (could be used with anything USB basically) and a LOT cheaper for anyone not needing the feature.

As for the USB-C topic: as I already mentioned numerous times, implementing USB type C is much more involved than just swapping out the connector. Implementing just a 5V compatible input stage would cost about 15 times what the current micro USB solutions cost (in terms of BOM cost). Implementing an input that can deal with the USB-C-PD for up to 12V stuff would skyrocket the costs. Implementing a non-compliant solution is not an option because we don't want to take responsibility for fried electronics of our customers. As for cost, I agree that the board itself is not terribly expensive, but the engineering (both electrical and software) and all the required changes (at least: connector, USB CC-line controller, V-Bus disconnect mosfet, a lot of passives, eventually another charger design if higher input voltages are a thing as well as probably the next bigger MCU in the lineup because the software stack won't fit in the reamining flash space) are. Now if anyone here is willing to put down anywhere from 8 to 14€ more to get that connector, tell me. I have my doubts.

For anyone concerned with the diying-out of the connectors; you can technically buy "dumb" Type-C to MicroUSB adapters online. These are definitely non-compliant but will work with Keybrick as long as you choose an equally dumb power source. We won't be shipping such a device though (for aforementionned reasons)

7 hours ago, legotownlinz said:

I've just had a look at your Kickstarter campaign and noticed that you are only asking for 9800 Euro. Just go to your bank and you'll get it. Or you ask someone to support the project. Imho setting up a Kickstarter campaign for such a low amount is a waste of money and time.

You'll definitely sell some units, the only risk is that Lego announces a similar product. PCBs and 3D printed parts can be produced economically at low quantities, so you can start small and grow if the product turns out to be successful.

The main goal of the campaign was twofolds: see if the product can generate some traction at least and get feedback. Realistically there were two possible outcomes: either fail with a clear marging (which happened) or blast past the goal if a miracle happened. The 10K are definitely not enough to scale it up to a point where we get some comfortable wiggle room on the price (at least 5x the sum for that). We currently plan on doing what you suggested in your last sentence: slowly ramping it up if we can make the enthousiast happy.

What we clearly heard was the interest in a solution for the Technic hub, so that's something we'll be looking into soon (including the Type C this time as there's a lot more room - in every sense - to implement it properly).

[Tcm0]

Thanks for the honest answers. I'm definitely looking forward to buy one (and probably more over the time).

I would be a bit cautious with Control+ hubs. They are prepared for rechargeable batteries and I'm pretty sure that there will be an official solution sooner or later.

[keybrickone]

Just now, Tcm0 said:

Thanks for the honest answers. I'm definitely looking forward to buy one (and probably more over the time).

I would be a bit cautious with Control+ hubs. They are prepared for rechargeable batteries and I'm pretty sure that there will be an official solution sooner or later.

Agreed, but my guess I that lego will just implement a cell pack to be inserted to the hub. But they'll most likely won't implement things like the power mode selection and/or the DC/DC conversion which hides the discharge curve. At least that switch inside the tray doesn't make sense otherwise (they'll likely use it to adapt the discharge thresholds and battery gauge curve).

So even if they come out with something I'm pretty sure we'll have a bunch of unique selling points left for us ;)

[legotownlinz]

8 hours ago, keybrickone said:

As for the USB-C topic: as I already mentioned numerous times, implementing USB type C is much more involved than just swapping out the connector. Implementing just a 5V compatible input stage would cost about 15 times what the current micro USB solutions cost (in terms of BOM cost). Implementing an input that can deal with the USB-C-PD for up to 12V stuff would skyrocket the costs. Implementing a non-compliant solution is not an option because we don't want to take responsibility for fried electronics of our customers. As for cost, I agree that the board itself is not terribly expensive, but the engineering (both electrical and software) and all the required changes (at least: connector, USB CC-line controller, V-Bus disconnect mosfet, a lot of passives, eventually another charger design if higher input voltages are a thing as well as probably the next bigger MCU in the lineup because the software stack won't fit in the reamining flash space) are. Now if anyone here is willing to put down anywhere from 8 to 14€ more to get that connector, tell me. I have my doubts.

The second best option would be the same connector as in the Lego Power Functions rechargeable battery pack. It is robust and user-friendly. Imho it's more important to have a future-proof wide voltage range input than a certain connector. If USB-C is too complex and using anything else than 5V for micro USB dangerous, then don't use USB. 

Edited November 5, 2020 by legotownlinz

[Toastie]

6 hours ago, legotownlinz said:

future-proof wide voltage range input than a certain connector.

Absolutely!

Plus the above discussed charge-as-you-work feature. I think this is key. GBC applications, trains, basically every stationary device will benefit. This was also the huge difference between the RCX 1.0 and 1.5/2.0 varieties.

And then the plug. It should be sort of a 90° type thing, as you were proposing as well. I believe this is also key.

Best
Thorsten

[Lok24]

Hi,

if thats all that difficult end expensive you could redesign your product?

Only the battery in your box that is one brick less in height, no electronics at all.
Below the outputs of the hub (which means on top of your product) a small common connector from the RC sector.
So the charging electronic is outside the modell.

Cheap, small, easy to handle.

 

 

 

Edited November 6, 2020 by Lok24

[Toastie]

1 hour ago, Lok24 said:

Cheap, small, easy to handle

Yes!

This is how I do it - but stupidly expensive: 2I/O hub (I simply cannot remember the names, sorry), open it, solder 2 wires to the terminals of the PCB, remove some ABS, get the wires into the battery compartment, attach Dupont connectors, drill a hole into the bottom, make a PF -> Dupont connector cable, hook that up to 8878 and the connectors in the 2I/O Hub. Power 8848 from the rails. This way I can still use batteries ...

Bit less labor: Take the 2I/O hub, remove the battery holder and bottom part - solder a wire from the PCB terminals to a PF terminal, hook that up to 8878 etc.

(I had the chance to grab 6 8878 for less than $20 each before costs exploded and had some more from the days it was hitting the shelves)

It would be so nice, to have a LiPo box, which is doing what 8878 is doing ... I also prefer the two tier approach: One box (tiny) for the intelligence/motor drivers - one for the battery. It allows to let the latter grow in size (and cost - LiPos are the most expensive parts here) with demand without affecting the size (and cost) of the former. It gives much more flexibility. IMHO that is.

Best
Thorsten 

[keybrickone]

4 hours ago, Lok24 said:

Only the battery in your box that is one brick less in height, no electronics at all.

Not an option for safety reasons. And you would loose one of the key features (IMO) which is the "no discharge curve". As for cost; the current direct cost allocation is 50% case, 20% battery, 20% electronics and the remainder for miscelaneous stuff (packaging, recycling systems, administrative). So 80% of the cost with a hefty reduction in features.

Not worth it for us, but perhaps a good DIY project if that's what you're looking for.

[Toastie]

9 hours ago, keybrickone said:

50% case

Where does that come from? And why is the electronics still 20%? Due to non-mass production?

Best
horsten

[keybrickone]

The case is a part we have made for us by a partner here in Germany (which is already significantly cheaper than others in europe). The Polyjet print has the main advantage that it uses PA12 as material which is very durable and impact resistant, coming very close to what an injection molded part would be in that regard. The surface finish is pretty nice in my opinion, but has a grained texture. 

The printer and raw material being "industry scale" expensive the part cost about twice as much as it would cost on an FDM machine, but postprocessing work time factored in it's not really so much more expensive vs. That (or DLP resin prints - which are not a good fit for the geometry of the case).

The electronics cost are indeed tied to scale (albeit the dc dc converters won't get dirt cheap even at 10k unit scales) and the fact that no corners were cut on protection.

[ruppie]

To me it was interesting to see, that most of the comments at the end of both, german and english youtube presentation, where much about the youtubers themself andtheir furure planings and only less focused on the keybrick product. Maybe only my subjective impression.  

More important: Obviously Staud Technologies, seems to be not interested  in targeting a wider range of customers.

"We are in a niche, and targeting custmers that are willing to pay a higher price for "special" non "OEM" , "ordinary" products.....".

I dont like a company that uses phrases like "niche" as xlusives why they products have to be high priced.

But: If you are successfull with that, congartulations from my side, because the success of some smartphone manufacturers and their high priced products has nothing in common with production cost or production charges . Its all about marketing ;-)  

 

 

[zephyr1934]

On 11/5/2020 at 2:55 AM, keybrickone said:

We're currently busy setting up the shop on our website to make at least the "first served" units available for sale (should be ready in the next few days). Our conclusion from the Kickstarter campaign is, that there is genuine interest in the product, even if there's much room for niche needs that we won't be able to fulfill. Price is definitely an issue, but we're in a difficult spot with the quantities involved currently. Our main cost drivers at this stage at: regulations (standards confirmity, environmental and recycling), the case itself (currently accounting for about 50% of the BOM - and we have little wiggle-room for cheaper supply there as we use a Polyjet process for finish, material and durability reasons - not your typical home FDM print definitely) and the custom battery pack.

Yes, start slow and see if it is sustainable. FX Bricks started with 3D printed cases and probably built on demand bricks. Find your niche and the products will start to sell themselves by word of mouth.

 

 

On 11/5/2020 at 3:06 AM, Tcm0 said:

I would be a bit cautious with Control+ hubs. They are prepared for rechargeable batteries and I'm pretty sure that there will be an official solution sooner or later.

I'd certainly be cautious of it, but definitely NOT a sure thing. The boxes were clearly designed for some form of rechargeable, but the PF LiPo's disappeared overnight, I suspect Lego decided they did not want to be in that market any more and that might carry over to PUP.

[TuffTuffTuff]

I'm ready to buy 3 :-)

[Tcm0]

17 hours ago, zephyr1934 said:

I'd certainly be cautious of it, but definitely NOT a sure thing. The boxes were clearly designed for some form of rechargeable, but the PF LiPo's disappeared overnight, I suspect Lego decided they did not want to be in that market any more and that might carry over to PUP.

PF LiPo's didn't disappear overnight. They were on sale (I think at least 30%) for a few weeks and I think that there was an official statement about the discontinuation of power functions (but that might have come later). The rest of PF will be discontinued by the end of this year according to that statement. The major issue I see is that this statement wasn't spread as much as it should have been.

[keybrickone]

On 11/7/2020 at 4:56 PM, zephyr1934 said:

Yes, start slow and see if it is sustainable. FX Bricks started with 3D printed cases and probably built on demand bricks. Find your niche and the products will start to sell themselves by word of mouth.

This is what we are looking  to do now.

On 11/7/2020 at 8:58 PM, TuffTuffTuff said:

I'm ready to buy 3 :-)

You could do so now (if you didn't already, I only know your handle on eurobricks). We enabled the shop on our website this afternoon. We're really looking forward to what comes now :) we should have some interesting news in the next few weeks if everything pans out.

 

[TuffTuffTuff]

Done :-)

Edited November 10, 2020 by TuffTuffTuff

[Stux]

Won’t come with a magnet in a baggy right?

Anyway, ordered... 16 left ;)

Edited November 11, 2020 by Stux

[keybrickone]

7 hours ago, Stux said:

Won’t come with a magnet in a baggy right?

No, you'll get a magnetic cable tie. The small magnets in the reviews were just a fallback replacement as we didn't get the samples in time from our supplier. Now we've got ties on order which should ne with us in two weeks or so.

 

Thanks for your support :)