Should people buy Fake Chinese PF motors?

[MAB]

3 hours ago, JaBaCaDaBra said:

@MAB is it obligatoire to destroy mine now?

And where does it end?
With buying worn motors or Buggymotors for a price beyond any normal sense.

You should know that I don't like the kind of chinese sellers that copy mocs or Lego sets too.

But here we are talking about motors that are no longer produced..
I wish those chinese could also produce good working servomotors but here it goes badly wrong

It is up to you what you want to do with them. If you want fakes as they are cheaper than the real thing, then buy fakes. Nobody else cares too much if you prefer to use fakes rather than buying genuine new or used ones.

If you don't mind buying fakes as they are cheaper than the secondary market and LEGO no longer produces them, then I don't really see why you wouldn't also buy fakes of sets that are no longer produced by LEGO and are expensive on the secondary market.

3 hours ago, Verodin said:

That's not very realistic anymore. I've been keeping my eye open for M motors and they've been out of stock for months(!!!). So yes I would buy fake motors, simply because that's the only thing you can actually buy (ignoring the official ones from 3rd parties who charge a  ridiculous amount for them, also not a real option).

For UK, they are showing as temporarily out of stock. I bought a couple about two weeks ago online.

3 hours ago, Verodin said:

What you're implying is that you're simply out of luck to talk about it on eurobricks, even if you just want to get an old set back up and running. And when PF is officially discontinued? How will that be handled? What are you going to tell those people?

What I mean here is that you cannot complain if your post gets removed or shut-down if you break the rules talking about fake versions of genuine LEGO.

[Verodin]

18 hours ago, MAB said:

For UK, they are showing as temporarily out of stock. I bought a couple about two weeks ago online.

What I mean here is that you cannot complain if your post gets removed or shut-down if you break the rules talking about fake versions of genuine LEGO.

Here in Sweden they're also temporarily out of stock, but I've been keeping an eye on them and they never become available. Maybe TLG makes them available differently across the globe. But I wonder, can't they just order a bigger supply from the manufacturer?

I agree with you saying that posts could get removed, but maybe in this specific case the rules could be interpreted a little bit more flexible. Considering the situation. But I don't make the rules here, so it would be entirely up to the moderators to justify and enforce or not.

[Toastie]

54 minutes ago, Verodin said:

But I don't make the rules here, so it would be entirely up to the moderators to justify and enforce or not.

And the moderators here have handled comparable posts and discussions with great care and oversight. Which is another very good reason to be part of this community.

Best
Thorsten

[Verodin]

23 minutes ago, Toastie said:

And the moderators here have handled comparable posts and discussions with great care and oversight. Which is another very good reason to be part of this community.

[MAB]

2 hours ago, Verodin said:

Here in Sweden they're also temporarily out of stock, but I've been keeping an eye on them and they never become available. Maybe TLG makes them available differently across the globe. But I wonder, can't they just order a bigger supply from the manufacturer?

I agree with you saying that posts could get removed, but maybe in this specific case the rules could be interpreted a little bit more flexible. Considering the situation. But I don't make the rules here, so it would be entirely up to the moderators to justify and enforce or not.

I think they take a fairly light hand to most discussions like that if the discussion is sensible. For products that enhance LEGO use (sbrick, buwizz, train track, train wheels, minifigure parts like brickforge and brickwarriors, etc ...), normally they are fine. For products that are direct copies of LEGO items, then less tolerant. Maybe for items that are out of production and hard to find genuine replacements, then they will be more tolerant. For current items that are just cheaper if you buy fake, I imagine they are not tolerant.

[Toastie]

9 hours ago, MAB said:

I think they take a fairly light hand to most discussions like that if the discussion is sensible. For products that enhance LEGO use (sbrick, buwizz, train track, train wheels, minifigure parts like brickforge and brickwarriors, etc ...), normally they are fine. For products that are direct copies of LEGO items, then less tolerant. Maybe for items that are out of production and hard to find genuine replacements, then they will be more tolerant. For current items that are just cheaper if you buy fake, I imagine they are not tolerant.

I believe this is a very sensible and very well phrased statement. I believe so as well. I tend to call that "intelligent" - as in "educated".

There is one more thing I like to add (have already). Current items that are just cheaper: I totally agree. But I would really have a look at the fake's performance and voice that here. If worse: Good to know - never go there. If equal: They did not have to come up with all the design issues, health issues etc. pp. so do not go there. However, if better - and that is certainly not out of range here, taking into account what China cranks out on their very own(!) - it would be good to flag that up as well. Because just being expensive does not automatically convert to being superior.

And I will bring it up again here, just to make sure, the notion that the folks at TLG have, are not only having the good of the world in mind - and this may be a little shortsighted:

The 10V wall wart they sell/sold for almost 30€/$ for many, many years is a pure and utter marketing joke. I am sorry to say this, but that was - for me - over the top. I bought one, took it apart (well broke it, was glued) just to find dirt cheap China stuff in there. No other company in the world is misleading their customers that way - there is no need for a 10V DC power supply for a truly average demand such as charging a totally protected LiPo battery pack. All LEGO rechargeable's can be charged with plain vanilla 9 - 12 - 15 V (and more) wall warts. It is that attitude that really frustrates(d) me. My problem, I know. But when they do it with wall warts, what else comes to their mind?

And I like to discuss such things here. In an educated, calm and polite way. As I would like to learn about fakes that are better than the original.

Just my 2 Cents and not wanting to be offensive at all!!!

Best,
Thorsten

     

[Brickthus]

One thing that swings the idea in favour of fake motor inserts is that TLG used to use bespoke motors (the metal bit inside the plastic box) for most of 4.5V, 12V and 9V but with Power Functions they moved towards using standard off-the-shelf motors similar to other toys, which means they are more available, cheaper in bulk, and the failure rate is probably lower on average, and easy to rectify with a swap when something does fail.

This means I would be prepared to fit a replacement insert into a PF motor casing if I had the tools, source details and patience.

Assuming this has continued for PU motors, which it clearly has for some equivalent motor units, I would particularly advocate motor swapping for a PU BOOST hub, where there are 2 integral motors.  If either of those failed then it is worth restoring the functionality of the whole £75 unit by swapping one.  Since the unit includes encoders it would still be possible to drive straight according to the program.

I had trouble back in 1994, in my degree project of a LEGO robot, as I had to use 2x 47154 5x4 motors geared down with worms to drive a robot chassis.  I used the 4.5V rotation sensors with discs but it would never go in a straight line because it was underpowered considering the weight of the computer card and batteries it had to carry.  Since then I switched to 12V train motors (8W each) that were the highest-power motor of their time.  Now I would use PF XL-motors geared down 3:1, as in a rover robot that I used to test the early PF parts.  Apart from the 9V 5292 buggy motor, PF was a great improvement in motor power but we have now used up that extra power in our expectations!

Mark

[LegoDW]

On 9/28/2020 at 7:42 PM, Newest_Tech320 said:

Do you think it is a good idea to buy fake chinese pf motors. I bought two fake buggy motors and large motors. If you want the link, send me a private message.

Thanks

If you want them and they make you happy, go ahead and purchase.  Just don't bring it up on the forum, folks get a little touchy on clones.  Maybe a few years after TLG discontinues them will be more excepted by the community.

[Newest_Tech320]

17 hours ago, LegoDW said:

If you want them and they make you happy, go ahead and purchase.  Just don't bring it up on the forum, folks get a little touchy on clones.  Maybe a few years after TLG discontinues them will be more excepted by the community.

Alright

[9v system]

i have been following this for a while and bit the bullet and brought some of the mouldking motors, and im very impressed with the quality, the internal motors are built better than the lego ones especially the M motors, i have taken photos of the internal motors and will post on my bricksafe, i have already brought more of them, and some other gbc builders are doing the same as me.

[dr_spock]

17 hours ago, 9v system said:

i have been following this for a while and bit the bullet and brought some of the mouldking motors, and im very impressed with the quality, the internal motors are built better than the lego ones especially the M motors, i have taken photos of the internal motors and will post on my bricksafe, i have already brought more of them, and some other gbc builders are doing the same as me.

Do you have a link to your internal photos? 

[BrickObsessed]

I would buy a non-Lego piece if they are hard to find. I want to build. Period. Of course, I would prefer genuine Lego, but if it will give me pain and frustration looking for a part, I don't want that.

On 10/12/2020 at 5:54 AM, MAB said:

So buy them. Nobody else cares if you want to buy and use fake LEGO, whether it is motors or other parts. You won't be allowed to talk about them here, as this site is for genuine LEGO only.

So I just learned that this forum is for genuine Lego only. I originally thought it does not matter cause the forum name says bricks, so in my head, any brand of building bricks/blocks.

[dr_spock]

1 hour ago, BrickObsessed said:

I would buy a non-Lego piece if they are hard to find. I want to build. Period. Of course, I would prefer genuine Lego, but if it will give me pain and frustration looking for a part, I don't want that.

So I just learned that this forum is for genuine Lego only. I originally thought it does not matter cause the forum name says bricks, so in my head, any brand of building bricks/blocks.

Clone brands can be discussed in the Community forum:  https://www.eurobricks.com/forum/index.php?/forums/forum/7-community/

Clone and Competitor Brands: A Clone brand or competitor brand, is a product manufactured by a legitimate company. For Example Oxford,Mega Blocks. Kreo or Character Building. These are companies that do not infringe copyrights and provide a competitor product, such as licenses and themes LEGO do not produce. It is fair to discuss, compare and share these brands and their products in the Community section of the Forum. 

[MAB]

On 3/13/2021 at 10:52 PM, BrickObsessed said:

So I just learned that this forum is for genuine Lego only. I originally thought it does not matter cause the forum name says bricks, so in my head, any brand of building bricks/blocks.

They are not allowed to use the word LEGO in the name, as it would indicate that it is supported somehow by LEGO.

However, look at the tagline directly below the name, "Uniting LEGO (R) fans around the world ..."

[BrickObsessed]

On 3/16/2021 at 8:39 AM, MAB said:

However, look at the tagline directly below the name, "Uniting LEGO (R) fans around the world ..."

Yea, the tagline I thought it just mentions Lego cause it is the most recognizable brand. 

[Yeetforlego]

I think its best to get the real deal. I mean, wouldn't you rather put the money you would spend on the fake motor towards the real one? Besides, I wouldn't want to support people trying to make money off of something they copied off of someone else. You could also never say that your creation is completely built out of legos. The original motors always last and run better than some bad knock off.

On 10/13/2020 at 5:01 PM, Toastie said:

I believe this is a very sensible and very well phrased statement. I believe so as well. I tend to call that "intelligent" - as in "educated".

There is one more thing I like to add (have already). Current items that are just cheaper: I totally agree. But I would really have a look at the fake's performance and voice that here. If worse: Good to know - never go there. If equal: They did not have to come up with all the design issues, health issues etc. pp. so do not go there. However, if better - and that is certainly not out of range here, taking into account what China cranks out on their very own(!) - it would be good to flag that up as well. Because just being expensive does not automatically convert to being superior.

And I will bring it up again here, just to make sure, the notion that the folks at TLG have, are not only having the good of the world in mind - and this may be a little shortsighted:

The 10V wall wart they sell/sold for almost 30€/$ for many, many years is a pure and utter marketing joke. I am sorry to say this, but that was - for me - over the top. I bought one, took it apart (well broke it, was glued) just to find dirt cheap China stuff in there. No other company in the world is misleading their customers that way - there is no need for a 10V DC power supply for a truly average demand such as charging a totally protected LiPo battery pack. All LEGO rechargeable's can be charged with plain vanilla 9 - 12 - 15 V (and more) wall warts. It is that attitude that really frustrates(d) me. My problem, I know. But when they do it with wall warts, what else comes to their mind?

And I like to discuss such things here. In an educated, calm and polite way. As I would like to learn about fakes that are better than the original.

Just my 2 Cents and not wanting to be offensive at all!!!

Best,
Thorsten

     

I personally do not think its ok to let people make money off of others creation. China has no right to try to make money off of TLG's original design. When you buy from them, you are supporting their wrong doing.

Edited March 20, 2021 by Yeetforlego

[9v system]

@dr_spock heres the photos https://bricksafe.com/pages/gbcbuilder/fake-lego-pf-motors

[Tube Map Central]

On 3/20/2021 at 3:38 AM, Yeetforlego said:

I personally do not think its ok to let people make money off of others creation. China has no right to try to make money off of TLG's original design. When you buy from them, you are supporting their wrong doing.

So this upsets you then?

https://ideas.lego.com/projects/acc7c4c8-3967-4563-8fb5-a49859fa7755

[Yeetforlego]

1 minute ago, Tube Map Central said:

So this upsets you then?

https://ideas.lego.com/projects/acc7c4c8-3967-4563-8fb5-a49859fa7755

Dude, don't play dumb. Everybody knows good and well that this is built out of respect for the artwork. Not to make money off the painting.

[Tube Map Central]

27 minutes ago, Yeetforlego said:

Dude, don't play dumb. Everybody knows good and well that this is built out of respect for the artwork. Not to make money off the painting.

So everyone is going to donate their profits to charity?

No, you don't play dumb. IP is time limited, Lego's patents have expired. That is how the whole of the rest of the real world works.

[Aanchir]

Honestly, I see no problem to buying third-party, LEGO-compatible electronics like Sbrick, BuWizz, etc, or even using generic, non-LEGO motors and other electronics in your MOCs. And I don't think the country of origin is anything to be too concerned about, either.

That said, I'd be cautious about buying actual counterfeits of the LEGO parts. Even if you disregard any ethical concerns about counterfeiting (after all, I doubt you'd be asking if you had those sorts of concerns), the fact remains that companies that are willing to "cut corners" by copying another brand's part designs instead of coming up with their own might also be cutting corners in other areas, including safety-related ones.

At the very least, if you are bound and determined to use counterfeit PF motors, it's probably be a good idea to take precautions like disassembling the motor housing to make sure there aren't any obvious electrical hazards present, as @9v system has done. And definitely stay alert in case the motor starts to show signs of overheating.

27 minutes ago, Tube Map Central said:

So everyone is going to donate their profits to charity?

No, you don't play dumb. IP is time limited, Lego's patents have expired. That is how the whole of the rest of the real world works.

"LEGO's patents have expired" is a major oversimplification. Patents on the basic brick and other older LEGO elements have definitely expired, but LEGO still holds active patents on a lot of their more recent parts, especially electronic parts like the Powered Up Smart Hub, functional elements like roller coaster cars or Ninjago spinners and launchers, ornamental designs for decorative parts like mini-doll legs/skirts and hair, and even certain software features like those used in the LEGO Vidiyo app.

In general, a good rule of thumb is that as long as a particular part or play feature was introduced less than 20 years ago, any patents it would have been eligible for at that time are likely still active. Feel free to browse Google Patents for more specific examples (a search for "LEGO A/S" is a good starting point).

Edited April 14, 2021 by Aanchir

[Yeetforlego]

36 minutes ago, Tube Map Central said:

So everyone is going to donate their profits to charity?

No, you don't play dumb. IP is time limited, Lego's patents have expired. That is how the whole of the rest of the real world works.

I completely fine with people making lego compatible creations like lego tape or buzzwizz motors. But copying the design exactly and making money off of it is not ok. Vincent Van Gogh's painting didn't even have a IP so having it your way lego has every right to make money off of his painting. People have a right to their own opinion. I respect that you think that  it is ok for people to make money off of somebody's hard work and time. I personally think that if it is preventable it is the right thing to do to buy from the original creator. Just because you can copy somebody's creation does not mean you should do it. Part of the reason why people buy instructions for Mocs (even though they can just build it from the photos) is to support them. It takes 5 seconds to copy something, but do you know how many hours, days, months, or years it took the original creator to make the creation? Unless it is a tribute or respectful modification to somebody's creation, it is always right to buy from the original creator. I apologize if I seemed rude earlier.

Edited April 14, 2021 by Yeetforlego

[Tube Map Central]

I deal in IP for a living, I create it and I protect it, so I know all the issues, and the sinking feeling when someone on Etsy, eBay, or fiverr is ripping off my work, yet again.

Anything that Lego has covered with design registration, copyrights, patents, or trademarks is protected, full stop, legally.

Anything not protected is fair game, and there are no ethical or legal issues whatsoever.

So buy those third party bricks in a colour that Lego refuses to produce, as long as it is legal, it is ethical.

[JaBaCaDaBra]

14 minutes ago, Yeetforlego said:

copying the design exactly and making money off of it is not ok

I own a car from 1974
I restored it myself and needed parts that were no longer produced by the original manufacturer
So I bought parts from someone else that makes them, and O SHAME, he makes money with that.
HAPPILY the parts were EXACTLY copied from the original cause any deviation would make them useless or ver hard to use.

If you don't mind..
I also buy PF motors from Ali

[Toastie]

46 minutes ago, Tube Map Central said:

That is how the whole of the rest of the real world works

This is what I am trying to understand for a long time now: The rest of the world really seem to work like this. One example is the electronics market; usually folks brag about how cheap you can buy electronic parts and assemblies in China. LED's, light panels, IC's everything. Original Arduino's start at about 20$. Chinese clones of the same type at 3$. And no one really complains (as far as I can tell). But when it comes to LEGO - wow. There is a lot of belief in this company. Seems for a good reason as they are making very nice stuff and continue to do so. But: When patents run out, either the technology is so old, that it hardly matters anymore - or it is happily and legally used by others. And then changed and adapted, improved and so on. There is also an aspect of further development in this approach. Usually things begin to get cheaper and more widespread, develop into other products, driven by competition.

And I clearly see competition as one big problem for TLG. Model wise. Yes, cloning existing models is not acceptable. Period. But coming up with own designs and adding new parts really is. I believe this will not only continue but get more and more into the market and eventually accepted. But who knows.     

The other thing is manufacturing of "mass products" in China is almost a must to remain competitive. I have no clue, but it would surprise me, if LEGO motors are produced and the assembly is done in China, maybe not. And yes, then comes the approval nightmare (CE, tests etc.) - but this is done under contracts in China as well - and it certainly does not drive the price up to crazy levels.

It is weird though: So many other items in the house/in real life come from China. Cloned or not, we don't care. Well, in most cases I wouldn't even know how to tell.

Best
Thorsten