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Brunojj1's mind-opener - red supercar - free instructions now available for static version

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6 minutes ago, Gimmick said:

@daveysbricks

I'm not a company. Not every instruction you can find in multiple databases is available from Lego. You can use any compatible manufacturer like Cada to buld a Lego set.

This, however, is not a current market reality. Yes, in theory, one could build the Porsche 911 out of their spare Cada bricks, however in reality, nobody has that many spare Cada bricks.

Additionally (and somewhat of a side point) I have seen it discussed multiple times on this forum whether or not designs which feature pieces not manufactured by Lego (for example black wheel arches) should be allowed.

All of this aside, Cada has chosen not to make the instructions or parts lists available for free. They are a separate entity to Lego, and are not bound by the decisions made by Lego.

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Just now, daveysbricks said:

This, however, is not a current market reality. Yes, in theory, one could build the Porsche 911 out of their spare Cada bricks, however in reality, nobody has that many spare Cada bricks.

Additionally (and somewhat of a side point) I have seen it discussed multiple times on this forum whether or not designs which feature pieces not manufactured by Lego (for example black wheel arches) should be allowed.

All of this aside, Cada has chosen not to make the instructions or parts lists available for free. They are a separate entity to Lego, and are not bound by the decisions made by Lego.

Just to make sure:

It is not illegal to publish a partslist, a speedbuild video and a self created 3D-Model, if anyone has all the parts and does not need an usable instruction guide he can build the model. It does not matter if the company publishes an official partslist or not.

If a company does not like that -> wrong industry. That's the basic concept of what they are selling.

And as I said: The portion of people who will actually do that will be negligibly low.

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4 minutes ago, daveysbricks said:

This, however, is not a current market reality. Yes, in theory, one could build the Porsche 911 out of their spare Cada bricks, however in reality, nobody has that many spare Cada bricks.

Why should nobody have enough cada bricks to build the Porsche 911? Why would you just assume that? I certeainly have enough non-LEGO bricks from a single brand to build it no problem.

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6 minutes ago, Gray Gear said:

Why should nobody have enough cada bricks to build the Porsche 911? Why would you just assume that? I certeainly have enough non-LEGO bricks from a single brand to build it no problem.

I stand corrected. One person has enough Cada bricks. Well done.

Cada, Winner, and other companies in their ilk offer exceptional quality and are terrific for competition within the industry and choice for consumers. However at this stage, you would have to agree that their distribution is obviously nowhere near that of Lego.

9 minutes ago, Gimmick said:

Just to make sure:

It is not illegal to publish a partslist, a speedbuild video and a self created 3D-Model, if anyone has all the parts and does not need an usable instruction guide he can build the model. It does not matter if the company publishes an official partslist or not.

If a company does not like that -> wrong industry. That's the basic concept of what they are selling.

And as I said: The portion of people who will actually do that will be negligibly low.

This may be legal, however in doing so, and distributing those materials, a person would just be going out of their way to ensure that Bruno does not earn anything from his design.

Edited by daveysbricks

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19 minutes ago, daveysbricks said:

This may be legal, however in doing so, and distributing those materials, a person would just be going out of their way to ensure that Bruno does not earn anything from his design.

This formulation is absolutely over-dramatized.

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25 minutes ago, daveysbricks said:

This may be legal, however in doing so, and distributing those materials, a person would just be going out of their way to ensure that Bruno does not earn anything from his design.

That really depends on the contract between Bruno and CaDA (which we don't & won't know). TLG designers are -- presumably -- employees whose monthly salary does not depend on how widely digital instructions of their designs are shared online. Perhaps Bruno received a lump sum, together with a contractual prohibition to personally circulate or endorse circulation of the instructions. In that case, we won't hear anything from him, but also he won't suffer from any of our reverse-engineering efforts.

Just guesswork...

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1 hour ago, Gimmick said:

Lego's strategy is very new-customer oriented, which makes sense if you consider, that many long-term customers do not need to buy your product anymore, because you offer everything they need for free :D

That's not entirely true. Lego keeps inventing parts every year, making designs "obsolete" quite frequently. Builders with not very huge collections tend to buy complete sets (also for building experience), not just the new specific parts, especially since it takes quite a time for these parts to appear on the parts market.

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2 hours ago, Gimmick said:

I'm sure I have all the parts for Legos 42102, but now you are telling me and everybody else, that we are not allowed to build it until we bought it?

No, he's talking about CaDA only. CaDA has chosen not to release instructions, because that's their business model for these supercars. The physical instructions probably fall under some form of copyright though, so the acts of redistributing and downloading copies (scanned/photocopied) may indeed be illegal. It's a similar situation to torrenting games. However, if someone makes a build video, or makes their own instructions, there's probably nothing they can do about it. Ethically it's the same though. If you want instructions, you should just buy the set (or instructions if they're available separately).

If you want to build 42102 because you have the parts to do it then Lego's happy to provide you with free instructions, because that's how their business model works.

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21 minutes ago, Gimmick said:

This formulation is absolutely over-dramatized.

I disagree, as depending on the nature of the contract, reproducing his design in this way would absolutely be quite literally circumventing his ability to earn from his design.

Realistically it boils down to people wanting to build this design, but only out out of pieces manufactured by Lego (an impossibility anyway due to colour availability).

That is a restriction that you have put upon yourself, and one that unfortunately means you will not be able to build this design.

That is the choice you have made.

In any case, one would be spending hours reproducing the design, and further to that, a significant sum of money, simply to avoid building it out of another brand of bricks.

If you really do love the design, save yourself the time and money and just purchase the set.

3 minutes ago, Bartybum said:

No, he's talking about CaDA only. CaDA has chosen not to release instructions, because that's their business model for these supercars.

Ethically it's the same though. If you want instructions, you should just buy the set (or instructions if they're available separately).

If you want to build 42102 because you have the parts to do it then Lego's happy to provide you with free instructions, because that's how their business model works.

Could not agree more.

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7 minutes ago, Bartybum said:

No, he's talking about CaDA only. CaDA has chosen not to release instructions, because that's their business model for these supercars

I must point out that the Centenario and this red supercar are not comparable. Bruno and Tlego signed different contracts. Bruno’s model is exclusive to cada whereas Tlego’s is allowed to sell the instructions. They might not have uploaded the Centenario instructions because of that reason. Only time will tell if the red supercar will have digital instructions available, since this is their first “fan” built exclusive model.

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27 minutes ago, astyanax said:

That really depends on the contract between Bruno and CaDA (which we don't & won't know). TLG designers are -- presumably -- employees whose monthly salary does not depend on how widely digital instructions of their designs are shared online. Perhaps Bruno received a lump sum, together with a contractual prohibition to personally circulate or endorse circulation of the instructions. In that case, we won't hear anything from him, but also he won't suffer from any of our reverse-engineering efforts.

Just guesswork...

In the long term, if CaDA can't make enough money because the instructions are too easily found for free online, then they'll be less likely to sign a future contract with him.

Just now, LvdH said:

I must point out that the Centenario and this red supercar are not comparable. Bruno and Tlego signed different contracts. Bruno’s model is exclusive to cada whereas Tlego’s is allowed to sell the instructions. They might not have uploaded the Centenario instructions because of that reason. Only time will tell if the red supercar will have digital instructions available, since this is their first “fan” built exclusive model.

Time will tell indeed. It'd still be illegal to rehost Thijs' instructions though. You could legally make your own instructions and sell them for cheaper, but that'd just be rude

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10 minutes ago, Bartybum said:

In the long term, if CaDA can't make enough money because the instructions are too easily found for free online, then they'll be less likely to sign a future contract with him.

But that'd be true for all designers, not just Bruno. Scans of instructions and virtual models are so easily made and circulated, they're gonna go around eventually. If CaDA can't make their business model work even after collaborating with celebrity designers, then the business model is wrong, and it doesn't matter who they contracted. It's not on Bruno to keep CaDA afloat (unless they're paying him a regular salary, or compensated him with shares in the company...).

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I'd say the parts list is OK, but the high-detail speedbuild and 3D model are infringing copyright unless they have separate permission. However with TLG, because they publicly release the building instructions as soon as the model is released anyway, speed builds don't really make any information more easily available, and 3d models and 'Pimp My X' instructions are unlikely to harm sales.

If CaDa, TLG, or any other company or individual does not release instructions publicly while they are still selling the model, then I think it is not morally OK to share speed builds, 3d models, etc, for the official model. And it's legally shaky regardless of what the company does.

As a different example, I suspect TLG would have a decent legal case against anyone who shared the Osprey build instructions, if they decided to pursue it.

Reverse engineering from marketing photos however is probably different, because in that case the person making the model has never had the opportunity to closely examine the original model or its BI.

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40 minutes ago, Bartybum said:

No, he's talking about CaDA only. CaDA has chosen not to release instructions, because that's their business model for these supercars.

Ethically it's the same though. If you want instructions, you should just buy the set (or instructions if they're available separately).

If you want to build 42102 because you have the parts to do it then Lego's happy to provide you with free instructions, because that's how their business model works.

The example with the 42102 was specifically meant to address the point, that if you want to build it, you have to buy it ;).

Lego did not chose to release half/full done 3D-models with partslist weeks or months before the model is released - no one cares about that (in fact the opposit is the case everey one is happy about it, Osprey anyone?).

So to keep my point and question as simple as possible: Why is one thing great and the other is not?

And to make it clear again: I'm not talking about instructions.

Edited by Gimmick

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4 minutes ago, pleegwat said:

Reverse engineering from marketing photos however is probably different, because in that case the person making the model has never had the opportunity to closely examine the original model or its BI.

In this exact case, would it be okay for that person to freely share the resulting virtual model?

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1 minute ago, astyanax said:

In this exact case, would it be okay for that person to freely share the resulting virtual model?

Would it be ok for an individual to create a virtual model of say, a LoxLego creation, and distribute it without the permission of the original creator?

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1 minute ago, astyanax said:

In this exact case, would it be okay for that person to freely share the resulting virtual model?

That's what I suspect. IANAL though.

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10 minutes ago, pleegwat said:

I'd say the parts list is OK, but the high-detail speedbuild and 3D model are infringing copyright unless they have separate permission.

The parts list is useless without the speedbuild and 3D model however. Why would anybody want a parts list if they had no idea what to do with the parts once they got them?

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I’m thinking of Bruno here, and would you really share instructions for free without his permissions for a model that is practically paid for? When you buy the car from CaDa, you are buying the instructions as well as the parts. I think it is best to respect both Bruno and CaDa and whether CaDa themselves wishes to share or sell the instructions separately.

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1 minute ago, daveysbricks said:

The parts list is useless without the speedbuild and 3D model however. Why would anybody want a parts list if they had no idea what to do with the parts once they got them?

Indeed, I made this point earlier. But as a matter of fact the high-detail speedbuild already exists, therefore the parts list has value, in this case.

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The speed build is nice, but it’s difficult to build it using the video. Not impossible, but definitely not for unexperienced builders. Also, there are a few pieces that LEGO does not make. PN 15100 in red and obviously the 8 curved panels. There is also a completely new part, a 1x2 liftarm with two axle holes, except thick. Obviously easy to replace though. 

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4 minutes ago, astyanax said:

Indeed, I made this point earlier. But as a matter of fact the high-detail speedbuild already exists, therefore the parts list has value, in this case.

Precisely, which is why I oppose the distribution of a parts list.

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37 minutes ago, Gimmick said:

The example with the 42102 was specifically meant to address the point, that if you want to build it, you have to buy it ;).

Yes but you applied it totally wrong

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29 minutes ago, daveysbricks said:

Why would anybody want a parts list

One possible reason is my answer on the last page:

"So I bought the CaDa set. Now, however, I am also interested in a parts list. For the simple reason that I maintain all of my sets at Rebrickable to see what else I can do with all of my sets."

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2 minutes ago, Bartybum said:

Yes but you applied it totally wrong

Sorry, but no.

I was talking about the parts. It's nice that you mentioned the free Lego instructions, but the instructions were not the point. He specifically mentioned the parts and that the company has to sell them. Now what if I buy used instrcutions, boxes,...? If I follow the logic the instruction itself is not enough, I have to use cada parts to build the model so the manufacturer gets paid for the product. In contrast to Lego, where it's okay to build with parts I already own and to use the free instruction because "at some point you have paid enough"?

 

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