Brunojj1's mind-opener - red supercar - free instructions now available for static version

[astyanax]

I'm no lawyer either... I enjoy your guidance and reasoned debate.

I agree with @LvdH and @amorti. But how far does the argument extend? I mean, I don't actually have instructions, neither scan nor PDF. The virtual model is divided in steps but has no LPub tags or rotations, so there's no automagic way of generating (usable!) PDF instructions. Of course one can load the model in Stud.io or LDraw and manually rotate it to see which parts got added per step, but how is that different from the various speed-build videos on YouTube (assuming those are legal...)? For example, the one below is very detailed and at very high resolution; it will definitely allow you to build the model with the same (lack of) effort, by simply pausing the video often.

 

Edited October 27, 2020 by astyanax
double post

[amorti]

24 minutes ago, howitzer said:

Just a bit of technicality, but Lego instructions aren't public domain, in the sense that as a legal term "public domain" means IP that's freely usable by anyone for any purpose. They are still subject to full copyright owned by TLG and even if TLG shares them freely, you aren't allowed create derivative works of the instructions for example, like certain Chinese companies have illegitimately done.

Fair point and well made.

Takes me back many many years when I worked at a Burger King, and some kids came in to take some "free" milk from the coffee making station. I told them "it's not free, it's complimentary, it comes with your coffee". Fair use must always be considered!

25 minutes ago, astyanax said:

I'm no lawyer either... I enjoy your guidance and reasoned debate.

 I agree with @LvdH and @amorti. But how far does the argument extend? I mean, I don't actually have instructions, neither scan nor PDF. The virtual model is divided in steps but has no LPub tags or rotations, so there's no automagic way of generating (usable!) PDF instructions. Of course one can load the model in Stud.io or LDraw and manually rotate it to see which parts got added per step, but how is that different from the various speed-build videos on YouTube (assuming those are legal...)? For example, the one below is very detailed and at very high resolution; it will definitely allow you to build the model with the same (lack of) effort, by simply pausing the video often.

Very interesting point! At what point to speed-build issues stray from fair use?

I'd have to assume this one is/was sanctioned by CaDA, since ALF is a big proponent of CaDA and seems to be an affiliate or theirs. But if so, I bet CaDA didn't consider they could potentially lose sales due to it.

You'd still have a hard time without a parts list though, unless you went through the video and generated one first. Sounds like way more work than just buying the CaDA set.

[Gimmick]

In this forum, Lego models have already been recreated in 3D and discussed/improved several times that have not even been released - just by looking at photos... x)

So if bruno does not want/is not allowed to release a part list etc. - that's completely fine.

But it does not affect the work of others in any way (if they don't sell it of course!).

[astyanax]

I'm struggling with the whole notion of a parts list... At first sight, it seems moot, because no-one is interested in a parts list, unless there's a way to build something. But given the comprehensive build video by ALF, a parts list would provide "enough" information to build the model without sending any money CaDA's way.

So is there something in copyright that forbids you from supplying the last piece of a puzzle? Can different parties legally share pieces of a copyrighted "puzzle", as long as it remains incomplete somehow? How does that work?

Sorry if this is getting too ... Technic 

[Bartybum]

14 hours ago, astyanax said:

I'm struggling with the whole notion of a parts list... At first sight, it seems moot, because no-one is interested in a parts list, unless there's a way to build something. But given the comprehensive build video by ALF, a parts list would provide "enough" information to build the model without sending any money CaDA's way.

I'd totally just give out a parts list if I had the set, especially since T-Lego's Centenario has a free parts list available on Rebrickable. I don't see any reason why a parts list would give away too much information.

[daveysbricks]

5 minutes ago, Bartybum said:

I'd totally just give out a parts list if I had the set, especially since T-Lego's Centenario has a free parts list available on Rebrickable. I don't see any reason why a parts list would give away too much information.

The reason is because it is disrespectful to Bruno. If you want to build his design, buy the model so he can earn the money from it that he deserves. Otherwise you are simply breaching his copyright and infringing on his right to earn from his design, in the same way that other users on this site complain that Lepin and other ripoff brands do to Lego.

[Gimmick]

@daveysbricks

That's nonsense.

[daveysbricks]

@Gimmick Well reasoned.

If the parts list and instructions were intended to be made available, they would be so.

How are designers supposed to feel when now instead of having their designs stolen by a corporation, they are being stolen by their fellow community members,

Edited October 28, 2020 by daveysbricks

[Gimmick]

4 minutes ago, daveysbricks said:

@Gimmick Well reasoned.

If the parts list and instructions were intended to be made available, they would be so.

As I already said: 3D models, part lists, ... as soon as a new Lego model has even been mentioned somewhere, the community tried their best to "reverse engineer" everything they could, and if it contains new parts, very often suggestions for replacements were made so anyone can build it.

"If you want to build his design, buy the model [...]" So if I want to build any set from any company I have to buy it, even if I already own all parts? That has never been the case.

If you want a special treatment for Cada or a general change in the use of  "parts" you need much better 'arguments' than a comparision with Lepin, especially if no one wants to sell anything.

[steph77]

CaDa is a new company in here.

If i understand frustration of those who own the parts to build it and need to buy the set, Something else, for me, makes the point.

This new actor on the brick theatre has understand one of our most wanted guess.

It gives to Mocers the Opportunity to share their talent with the Community.

Let's be clear, you will never get such set out of TLG.

If CaDa invest in such high quality model (massively due to the same quality level of the designer), the Community will acces more easyly to top level builds.

And, yes, we will have to pay for.

If i remember correctly, the Sian cost 400€...

 

EDIT: without RC, light, paddle shifter,.....

Edited October 28, 2020 by steph77

[Bartybum]

4 hours ago, daveysbricks said:

The reason is because it is disrespectful to Bruno. If you want to build his design, buy the model so he can earn the money from it that he deserves.

How are you gonna build it from just a parts list?

4 hours ago, daveysbricks said:

Otherwise you are simply breaching his copyright

What copyright? Part list copyright? No

Edited October 28, 2020 by Bartybum

[astyanax]

49 minutes ago, Bartybum said:

How are you gonna build it from just a parts list?

It can be built using the video included at the top of this page. 

However, publishing a parts list would not present any new information, since the parts can already be tallied from said video. It would only provide a convenience for others to check their inventory and source parts before building.

1 hour ago, steph77 said:

Let's be clear, you will never get such set out of TLG.

Also because -- by TLG's own rules -- this model uses a lot of "illegal" connections.

[Gray Gear]

20 minutes ago, astyanax said:

Also because -- by TLG's own rules -- this model uses a lot of "illegal" connections.

Well they are only illegal until a LEGO designer decides to use it, and the rules get bent... Who cares.

The fact is this model is better than any 1:8 car LEGO will ever give us, especially for the price.

I think y'all should just give CADA a chance, buy one, build it, and if you dont like it you can just sell it for a small loss on Ebay. Its worth the experience.

[daveysbricks]

 

1 hour ago, Bartybum said:

How are you gonna build it from just a parts list?

What copyright? Part list copyright? No

Why do you need the parts list if you do not intend to build it.

[badmad]

I only speak for myself now (as always: D): I saw the lines of this car and it was immediately clear to me that I had to build this beauty. @brunojj1 did an outstanding job. So I bought the CaDa set. Now, however, I am also interested in a parts list. For the simple reason that I maintain all of my sets at Rebrickable to see what else I can do with all of my sets. The parts list may be in the printed instructions, but it is still packed. If so, then I have it and just type it into my RB profile manually.

[daveysbricks]

4 hours ago, Gimmick said:

As I already said: 3D models, part lists, ... as soon as a new Lego model has even been mentioned somewhere, the community tried their best to "reverse engineer" everything they could, and if it contains new parts, very often suggestions for replacements were made so anyone can build it.

"If you want to build his design, buy the model [...]" So if I want to build any set from any company I have to buy it, even if I already own all parts? That has never been the case.

If you want a special treatment for Cada or a general change in the use of  "parts" you need much better 'arguments' than a comparision with Lepin, especially if no one wants to sell anything.

You are not entitled to nor owed anything from Cada or Bruno. 

Yes. If you want to build the set, you are going to have to buy it. Money can be exchanged for goods and services, that is how businesses operate and function.

Further to this, by doing so you also encourage these companies to offer other MOCers and members of this community similar partnerships and opportunities.

[FoxOne]

Gents, I'd like to highlight another angle on this sensitive topic.

 

Being from software industry myself, my personal opinion leans towards respecting author's and owner's decision, either to share instructions and partslist or not.

But, frankly speaking, owning the bricks and seeing this gorgeous model, with clear restriction to build it, is rather confusing, to say the least.

 

That makes me wonder whether additional copyright-related means could be applied. Just for the sake of discussion, maybe something like "for personal / non-commercial use only" or "expiration period of legal protection"?

Another approach could be to sell legal instructions by vendor itself, but it's clearly their own business decision.

 

I'm also not a lawyer (c), but look -- Torsen differential is patented; is it ok to build it with bricks?

 

[Gimmick]

21 minutes ago, daveysbricks said:

Yes. If you want to build the set, you are going to have to buy it. Money can be exchanged for goods and services, that is how businesses operate and function.

That's the basic 'flaw' in the "brick-system". I'm sure I have all the parts for Legos 42102, but now you are telling me and everybody else, that we are not allowed to build it until we bought it?

Please keep in mind that you are basically arguing against all databases, improved models, 3d-rebuilds, pre-release discussions and so on.

Copy and selfmade instructions, 3D-Model(s) and part list for the osprey? No problem. Just a part list(!) for this model? Big discussion...

But I'm sorry for the 'nonsense' in an early post. You do have a point, but that point was never considered before and would change basically everything.

[eric trax]

On 10/27/2020 at 11:31 AM, amorti said:

While Lego instructions are immediately in the public domain, CaDA instructions are not. You wouldn't make a free instruction set to modify @T Lego's blue supercar which has paid for instructions on rebrickable, or @eric trax's Claas which is the same, the only difference here is that (for whatever reason), @brunojj1's instructions aren't on rebrickable, but they're still copyrighted, paid-for material.

Gentlemen, please do not assume that the rebrickable and CADA set part-lists are the same. There are some design changes in to the Scorpion and the parts lists differ from one another. I don't know about a supercars, but this assumption (overall) is wrong.

Edited October 28, 2020 by eric trax

[astyanax]

4 minutes ago, Gimmick said:

That's the basic 'flaw' in the "brick-system". I'm sure I have all the parts for Legos 42102, but now you are telling me and everybody else, that we are not allowed to build it until we bought it?

If it's a flaw, it can be turned into a strength, and TLG seems to have embraced it. The point is to keep people hooked in your ecosystem, and then they'll come back to buy more eventually. This reasoning falls apart though, when more brick-producing companies enter the picture, when most of the money is made from new bricks. What's CaDA's strategy here, and how will that change TLG's strategy?

[howitzer]

Is parts list even a thing that is covered by copyright law? I mean, in order for something to be covered by copyright law, it must be some kind of a creative work, and I'm not at all sure if a parts list could be considered that. Building instructions are definitely covered and this would include reprints of the instructions pages with parts list but if I obtained the instructions and entered all the parts into, say, Bricklink wishlist and then shared that list as an xml file, would I be infringing on someone's copyright?

[Gimmick]

11 minutes ago, astyanax said:

If it's a flaw, it can be turned into a strength, and TLG seems to have embraced it. The point is to keep people hooked in your ecosystem, and then they'll come back to buy more eventually. This reasoning falls apart though, when more brick-producing companies enter the picture, when most of the money is made from new bricks. What's CaDA's strategy here, and how will that change TLG's strategy?

Lego's strategy is very new-customer oriented, which makes sense if you consider, that many long-term customers do not need to buy your product anymore, because you offer everything they need for free :D

But it worked out. Cada seems to be afraid of the potential lose in sells, but I don't think that's reasonable. Especially since the direction of the market has moved towards 'adults with display models'. And even if you can buy cheaper parts from other companies, I'm not sure if the impact is high enough to change Lego's strategy.

1 minute ago, howitzer said:

Is parts list even a thing that is covered by copyright law? I mean, in order for something to be covered by copyright law, it must be some kind of a creative work, and I'm not at all sure if a parts list could be considered that. Building instructions are definitely covered and this would include reprints of the instructions pages with parts list but if I obtained the instructions and entered all the parts into, say, Bricklink wishlist and then shared that list as an xml file, would I be infringing on someone's copyright?

A simple copy (photo) is not allowed I think, especially with images. If you create your own excel sheet or write it down by hand no one cares.

[fosamax]

Even if I don't have access to the part list, I guess that I don't own more than 80-85 % of the needed parts, which is quite similar with the number of parts I already have for sets 42056 or 42083.

For the later, the total cost of the missing part for the store which come the closest to 100 % is more than 900 € (on Bricklink)  and the less I will have to pay from a single store in the top ten is 140 € but I'm still struggling at 96 %.

If I use multi buy I may go up to 100 % for a price rather similar than buying a brand new sealed 42083. I don't see the point unless you have an insanely huge number of parts, that you will have to sort before you start building.

For Bruno's supercar, you'll still have to source some red panels that are not manufactured by TLC.

I guess that when you really want to build a model with more than 3000 parts, the easiest and cheaper way would probably be buying the original model, either from TLC if available or a competitive brand if not available from TLC.

I second Grey Gear advice that you don't have much to loose by giving Cada a chance and test from yourself.

Eric Trax's post about difference in part list is also a valid point since CaDa used to design some specific parts like beams with alterning holes (which may end up being cloned either by TLC or Mould King at some point if those parts become popular...)

 

[daveysbricks]

41 minutes ago, Gimmick said:

I'm sure I have all the parts for Legos 42102, but now you are telling me and everybody else, that we are not allowed to build it until we bought it?

A construction company cannot steal an engineering company's design for a road or building just because they have the concrete and steel to be able to build it.

The difference here also is that Lego have made their instructions freely available to you, Cada and Bruno have not.

This is because to build a Lego set from Lego instructions, you would need to own all of the pieces to do so, as manufactured by Lego.

This is a clear difference, as doing so would require a person to have already spent a significant amount of money to acquire those pieces from Lego, whether in the short or long term.

Lego do not make their parts lists and instructions free out of altruism. To assume so would be naive.

In essence, Lego are happy for you to have access to their instructions to build for free, should you have the pieces, as they can afford to because you must have already bought the pieces from them, and doing so keeps you engaged with the brand and product.

In this case however, one would be using Lego pieces to build a Cada design, thereby circumventing any measure by which Cada can make any money from this endeavour. 

Edited October 28, 2020 by daveysbricks

[Gimmick]

@daveysbricks

I'm not a company. Not every instruction you can find in multiple databases is available from Lego. You can use any compatible manufacturer like Cada to buld a Lego set.