Looking for constructive criticisms please

[rday1982]

Studio renders of my awful locomotive designs will be posted here. If you think you can offer me helpful advice or teach me something to help me improve, please feel free to do so. I'm not going to take offense at being told I suck, I know I have a lot to learn.

One thing I struggle with a lot is knowing what parts are available for a particular job - programs like Studio really help there. If you know of any awesome useful parts I don't seem to be using, please point them out. I also tend to avoid extensive SNOT work unless it's really necessary - I find that

Anyway. Here are two based on the same rolling chassis and cylinder arrangement:

This one is an early attempt, years ago, in LDD to model a decent steam loco with articulation and valve gear.

Another very early LDD model:

I'm aware that they all need work - please, if you can think of specific things to improve upon what you see, do say so. I have others to upload when I dig out an old hard drive or two, if people are interested in not just saying "that sucks", but maybe saying "that sucks in this specific area where I think this specific brick or SNOT configuration might really help improve the look".

I'd like constructive criticism. Something I can use - something that will help me improve. Don't tell me if I did something right. Don't tell me it looks terrible without telling me where and why I went wrong. Please, help me learn and grow if you're open to sharing your collective expertise.

Thanks in advance!

[Pdaitabird]

Ok, I'll bite. Keep in mind that I'm not a very advanced train builder.  The first one has a lot of potential - it's my favorite of the four. It looks like it's based on a British mainline engine, yes? I would probably use curved slopes (part 6091) for the top of the Belpaire firebox. The only other things I could think of on that one are possibly some brick-built lining and brick-built buffer beams instead of the prefab pieces. That would allow the buffer beams to be as wide as the rest of the engine and have the typical British red color (I mean colour!) as seen below.

For the other black one and the red one, I would suggest making the boiler smaller.  There's a useful topic with some boiler techniques here.  Also, leaving an open space with some worky bits below the boiler is often a good way to add realism. I think the green one could use a longer tender.  Overall, I would encourage you to keep building! You clearly have a lot of talent and skill, and your skills will develop even more the more you build and experiment. In the words of Senator Palpatine, "We will watch your career with great interest!"

[The Brick Boss]

@Pdaitabird Nice model of the L&Y Class 28. That's what James from Thomas and Friends was based off of.

[zephyr1934]

18 hours ago, rday1982 said:

On the one hand, the diameter of the boiler seems way too large for the width of the locomotive to be a standard steam engine. On the other hand, if you drop the tender, then it looks like a "fireless locomotive," e.g.,

 

 

Meanwhile, the doors on the side of the cab has a classical feel to it, very 12v era. However, depending on what you are modeling, it might be unprototypical (e.g., most US steam locomotives don't have doors).

[Selander]

Agree with others that your boilers are generally too large on diameter. Wes_turngrate has a good chart with a range of boiler designs. 

 

Also, I would skip Lego train doors, I think they are too large. Windows should face forward, rather than sideways. 

And as another general advice, try to add more piping and detailing to boilers, they tend to look "un-interesting" for the moment.

By carefully studying other people's designs, you will find loads of good ideas and details.

Edited September 8, 2020 by Selander
Spelling mistake

[BricksMcgee]

Those aren’t awful - room for improvement, but most models have!

The boiler looks a little large to me compared to the cab, so perhaps try reducing that. It all depends on the prototype you’re basing it on, of course. 
the image that Selander posted is a good resource for boiler building techniques. 

[rday1982]

On 9/7/2020 at 5:54 PM, Pdaitabird said:

brick-built buffer beams

Any technique you'd care to share for this? It's not something I've attempted before and I'm struggling to get the height above the track, and the proportions right.

[Ts__]

 

On 9/10/2020 at 6:08 AM, rday1982 said:

Any technique you'd care to share for this?

My buffers are relatively low as I also used the Lego locomotives and wagons as a guide. As example the front puffer from my LMC Class 5 as stud.io file:

LMC Class 5 front puffer beam at BrickSafe

Thomas

 

[Pdaitabird]

@rday1982 Here's a picture of a simple technique: 

 

[rday1982]

Thanks, both of you. This is exactly the sort of tips and visualisation of techniques that will help me to improve.

This is an attempt to splice a brick-built buffer bar into a pre-existing locomotive design:

 

It ended up being a substantial rebuild of the front end. I think I might have to start building from the ground up using this technique, but I do like the added realism (and I used @Pdaitabird and @Ts__'s techniques together). I really like the improved aesthetic this gives, and now I need to work on building something with a more appropriate width boiler.

I do like the L&Y locomotives you have built, @Pdaitabird and it looks like an excellent opportunity for me to practice adding a splash of colour with brick-built lines. I'm not going to attempt to replicate your work outright, but I think the next thing I spend time attempting to build in Studio will be very similar to your Class 28. Not just because it's a lovely model, but also because this was one of the first steam locomotives I got to take a look at up close IRL (there are preserved examples in the national railway collection and operating on the heritage KWVR line near to where I grew up) and it's sort of a nostalgia trip for me right now - I have no idea when I'll ever be able to go back to England, nevermind the little valley I grew up in. So building this virtually should be a nice way to connect with my original home.

 

Edited September 12, 2020 by rday1982

[Pdaitabird]

Your revision looks nice!

14 hours ago, rday1982 said:

I do like the L&Y locomotives you have built, @Pdaitabird and it looks like an excellent opportunity for me to practice adding a splash of colour with brick-built lines. I'm not going to attempt to replicate your work outright, but I think the next thing I spend time attempting to build in Studio will be very similar to your Class 28. Not just because it's a lovely model, but also because this was one of the first steam locomotives I got to take a look at up close IRL (there are preserved examples in the national railway collection and operating on the heritage KWVR line near to where I grew up) and it's sort of a nostalgia trip for me right now - I have no idea when I'll ever be able to go back to England, nevermind the little valley I grew up in. So building this virtually should be a nice way to connect with my original home.

Thank you! I'm currently working on replicating my Class 27 in Studio. I'll probably be posting it in a few days if you'd like to have the file for reference.

On September 7, 2020 at 9:18 PM, Brandon Pea said:

@Pdaitabird Nice model of the L&Y Class 28. That's what James from Thomas and Friends was based off of.

Thank you! I actually based mine on pictures of the Class 27 (so hopefully it won't be as vain as James ), but they're so similar that I don't think I could tell the difference myself!

[rday1982]

21 hours ago, Pdaitabird said:

I'll probably be posting it in a few days if you'd like to have the file for reference.

Thanks! That'd be great. I'm struggling with properly representing the train at 7 studs wide. I see yours is six, maybe a studio file to pull apart and examine the solutions somebody else had will give me some inspiration or convince me to drop the extra stud's width altogether. If I can put something nice together, I'll probably then try to get it built in bricks, and will definitely share my own Studio file for others who might want to take a crack at it.

I pulled the front end off an LDD train (not originally mine, one I found somewhere on the internet, I forget exactly where and when, but probably back when LDD let you upload and share files) that at one point was an Emerald Night recolour but ended up undergoing some drastic changes at my hands both internally and in a few design aspects, to add brick-built buffer beams. All I was intending to do was change the buffers out, I just got a little carried away. I then got frustrated with the LDD parts selection, ported it into Studio, and made even more changes. Proper articulation and valve gear that won't bind being the main ones. Cab detailing being another:

The end result: It'll never be able to be powered. There's too much I yanked out and changed around inside to make it feasible to put a motor and battery box in here. But the overall look is something I'm pretty happy with. I never expected this to be anything other than an exercise in how to replace the standard train buffer part with a new assembly made from individual bricks, so it's a pleasant surprise to find myself wanting to actually build this:

Studio estimate is around $260 for the parts, and I'm actually sorely tempted. I think this looks pretty nice and it would be good to get this as an incentive to actually get somewhere with more space to build up some track and scenery (also, more space for the wife and cat to occupy as a bonus, but obviously the Lego train is my main motivation here). But before I dive off the deep end and spend a little too much to buy something I will probably find glaring fault with since it's not going to have anywhere to live apart from a small space on my bookshelf for the immediate future, does anybody have recommendations for further improvements or refinements?

 

[Pdaitabird]

That new engine looks nice! You may just need an extra stud or two of spacing between the cab and the tender to get around curves.

[rday1982]

2 hours ago, Pdaitabird said:

You may just need an extra stud or two of spacing between the cab

As well as the perspective of the render being somewhat deceptive, I rendered that last night, before I'd fully upgraded the tender from the original LDD version to something I like better (and is cheaper according to Studio's price checking). This shows the articulation of the locomotive and tender pretty well:

As you can (possibly) see, I've slightly altered the geometry of the front pony truck to allow me to lower the cylinders and still take a tight bend or navigate an S-curve, changed the connection of the rear pony truck to be able to get around a tighter bend or S-curve without derailing, and lengthened the bogies under the tender by 1 stud each, as well as pushing the gap between tender and cab a little further out (mainly thanks to the small increase in length of the connection between the driving wheel frame and trailing pony). The tender's sloped front allows the cab roof to slide across on a turn. This is all based on what I remember from articulating locomotives to run on real track, but admittedly might not be totally accurate in the translation from virtual model to physical bricks. The likely point of failure with regard to articulation is the brick at the back of the cab with the vertical pin attached. However, those are simple enough to swap out for a single stud if it shows itself to be a problem.

The valve gear has been amended to my preferred arrangement which should eliminate the potential to bind at speed (it worked on a remodelling I did of an Olton Hall/Hogwarts Express that's now with my brother's kids). That's what brought the cylinders a little lower (not even much, *just* enough that it would have interfered with the front wheels had I not re-jigged them).

Studio estimates the total right now as $262.78 - which is less than I thought it would be, given the sheer number of parts (886). That's lower than it would have been before I gutted the interior of the boiler to remove all the gearing which would be useless to me, seeing as I definitely do not have the money to make this a powered model and do not have the space to get this with any track. At least, not if I don't want it to be seized and dragged under the sofa by the cat (she's a sweet little murder machine, but anything smaller than her which moves is prey). Anyway, removing the innards enabled me to make some of the internal structure a little more sturdy, too. As well as substituting some high-price parts for cheaper ones.

I might need to invert the orientation of the rear magnetic coupler, as it seems to be sitting a little higher than the buffer bar in this direct side-on view. I also might need to swap the round bricks holding the front buffers out for a stack of two round single stud plates. There are probably other little refinements I can make, and I guess it's a good idea to explore as many of them as possible if I'm actually planning to spend money on doing this.

Edited September 13, 2020 by rday1982
Spelling

[Pdaitabird]

Nice update!  I look forward to seeing it in real bricks!

[rday1982]

Steam trains are hard, and expensive. I've built a Class 60 in EWS livery in Studio, since that seemed like it might be easier and cheaper to do. Fully powered with two motors, the estimated cost is $330-ish.

Does anybody have any idea what I can do in general to reduce the overall cost of the most expensive parts? The windows, wheels, and profile bricks all seem to be things that cost way more than they're worth. Studio estimates the two sloped 6x2 windows at the ends of the locomotive as $30-ish each, and this just seems like far too much to justify spending on a single part.

Is this a common problem, and is there any common solution? Anybody?

I should probably render the model and put the image here in the next couple of days now that I think about it. Shouldve done that before coming here. Oh well. Give me a little time, and it'll appear.

[Phil B]

All I can say is: Don’t trust Stud.io’s cost estimates (at least not the ones in the Model Info screen). Load your .io file straight into Bricklink, then export as XML, open it up in Notepad, change all occurrences of MINQTY to QTY and load the resulting file into Brickstock. You will see a 50% decrease in cost. At least that is what I have observed.

[Pdaitabird]

Another thing to consider: there are often multiple variants of a given part. If any of the expensive parts are older variants, switching to the one currently (or most recently) in production can reduce the cost a good bit.

[rday1982]

Thanks for the advice, guys.

11 hours ago, Phil B said:

All I can say is: Don’t trust Stud.io’s cost estimates (at least not the ones in the Model Info screen). Load your .io file straight into Bricklink, then export as XML, open it up in Notepad, change all occurrences of MINQTY to QTY and load the resulting file into Brickstock. You will see a 50% decrease in cost. At least that is what I have observed. 

Okay, this seems like it might help. Guess I'll have to learn how to use Brickstock next.

10 hours ago, Pdaitabird said:

Another thing to consider: there are often multiple variants of a given part. If any of the expensive parts are older variants, switching to the one currently (or most recently) in production can reduce the cost a good bit.

Specifically for those windows, they appear to be the most recent variant and yet do not appear to have a cheaper alternative (also they don't seem to come in a huge selection of colours, which means I can't do the classic green or blue BR liveries).

Anyway, here is the locomotive, in all its blocky basic glory. Shorter than the real thing should be, I know. I ought to have tried mapping the length to a number of studs when the width is assumed to be equivalent to 6. It's been a while since I've done this, so I guess I'm a little rusty. I swear, I used to be decent at this stuff. I guess Lego builds are a skill that atrophies when not used for a few years, like anything else. All the stuff on the side panel between the wheel sets is just a placeholder - if anybody has a suggestion as to what should go there to mimic the real locomotive, then suggestions will be gratefully received. The power switch is hidden under one of the grille tiles on the roof. I'm still looking for a more elegant and representative way to reproduce the roof vents.

I already know where I want to make a few refinements in terms of adding detail, and can see a couple of small areas (roof, side windows, maybe the doors) where I have idea for a better parts set to more accurately represent the real thing. Which I suppose I should supply my reference photo for also. The difference between the front and rear vents is due to the internal geometry of the battery box, motors, and command receiver unit being squeezed in there (The cutaway views of the class 47 by @Dutchiedoughnut here helped me mount the motors in similar fashion, so thanks, Dutchie).

 

I'm quite pleased with my solution for the three-axle powered bogies - IIRC these should be the maximum distance that you can position a trio of wheels at on a single truck and still make it around a normal Lego curve. I guess I'd have to build it and see to be sure, but I'm reasonably confident for now (and could always turn the leading axle into something unpowered and with a little slip if not. I have it already designed in Studio, it wouldn't be much work to sub that part out, I just wanted to see if I could actually power two out of three axles and produce something that I think will handle the standard curved track).

Just in case it'll be of use to anybody else, here is a render of the bogie design in several semi-assembled states and orientations. If you see a problem with it, please do let me know! Since I can't test it in brick without ordering parts, if anybody spots a problem and lets me know, they'll be doing me a huge favour rather than just nitpicking!

 

This loco design isn't perfect, but I decided to not let perfect be the enemy of good, and I figured that folks here might be able to point out some easy fixes or quick wins to tip the balance closer to perfect than it was. As always, any comments that help me improve are appreciated!

[zephyr1934]

I would put a 2x4 technic plate across the top (with the yellow axle up the middle) and maybe a few more plates going across, all under the tiles. I would also put 3 half bushings per axle to keep the bevel gears in place.

[rday1982]

30 minutes ago, zephyr1934 said:

would put a 2x4 technic plate across the top (with the yellow axle up the middle) and maybe a few more plates going across, all under the tiles.

There are already 2x4 technic plates running under each doughnut tile. Do you mean add more? As for the axle bushings, that's something I will take care of immediately. Thanks!

[zephyr1934]

Oh, okay, no, I did not see that. The two examples on the left do not have the plates and the example on the right is all black so it is hard to see the details. So yes, you've already done all that I would think of

[rday1982]

Having taken some of the things I've learned recently, and started to use them, I thought I'd revisit the classic British Mainline Locomotive of Indeterminate But Vaguely Familiar Type.

I'll probably knock up a guard's van to go on the back, and then add this to the list of things I'm considering buying the parts for. With the exception of the carriage, because that's roughly $400, whereas the locomotive is much more complex and clocks in at an estimated $260, which I may be able to justify treating myself to in the middle of next year.

As always, this is posted for constructive criticism - if there's something you see that doesn't work, or a suggestion you have for improvement, I'm all ears and very grateful. You guys have been super helpful so far, and I hope that'll continue. I really feel like this forum is teaching me and helping me to improve, which feels wonderful.

[Selander]

Loco is an improvement, but that passenger wagon looks "off proportions".... Too high and narrow, and short.... Advice you to study pictures and proportions of the real thing, and adjust your design accordingly.

[zephyr1934]

Looking good,

To my eye the coach looks too tall, and clicking on the link to see the detail it does appear that you could cut out one full brick of height. I think you are using a train  baseplate and then a row of headlight bricks on top of it, if you build a 4 wide frame yourself and use bricks with studs on the side you can get the same width with less height.

Also, looking at your trucks, you have technic axle wheels. If those are a place holder for roller bearings then you are in good shape. If you are thinking of using those for real... good luck. The technic axles are "friction-ritch". I'd suggest using the normal train wheel-sets if you are only going to have 1-3 cars, or roller bearings if you are going to have 4+ cars

13 hours ago, rday1982 said:

With the exception of the carriage, because that's roughly $400, whereas the locomotive is much more complex and clocks in at an estimated $260,

Now you are ready to move to the next level in building- figuring out how to build something cheaper. With all of the classic train windows it is no wonder why the coach is so expensive. Sadly, there are no great substitutions for those windows if you are building cars of that era and local.

Then, looking closer, it appears to be on a black 6x28 baseplate. Change that to dark blay or blue and you'll save a lot. Building your own 4x plate assembly will probably be on the order of the cost of a blay train base. Then look through the prices on the rest of the pieces to see if anything else is stupid expensive. Sometimes a part substitution can lead to a significant savings. That's why I always have the BL price catalog open when I'm building.