MOD Custom rods for the Crocodile Locomotive set 10277

[zephyr1934]

I'd like to present version 1.0 of my rods for the Crocodile Locomotive set 10277. After seeing the first leaked images of this set I designed a new set of rods for the model. I recognized that the end of the jackshaft was a technic disk and wanted to create the illusion that this disk was tied into the rod without having to actually connect it mechanically. Fortunately I guessed correctly at the length.

Having not been familiar with these locomotives I did not realize that the rods on the prototype are far more complicated, but there are several other obstacles to creating more realistic rods for this locomotive. So those challenges are a thing for the future.

Anyway, the actual modification is surprisingly simple, swapping one brick and one plate on either side of each hood.

 

Full instructions for the MOD will be available here once moderated on brickshelf.

 

The rods are up for advance purchase here. They will be going into my next fab and will not ship until it is completed, after which point they will be a standard stocked listing. I will probably be putting the designs up on Shapeways too.

 

==========

Other links:

For great ideas to improve the look of this model, see these links:

Dirk1313's MOD

Phil B.'s MOD

Sérgio's MOD

JopieK's MOD (lights, camera, action... well... okay, just lights)

AWildP32 forgot to read the care label, put the model through the dryer and discovered it shrunk

Toastie's MOD

<will add more as they appear>

 

[zephyr1934]

I posted in the main 10277 thread about derailing when going counter-clockwise on 9v track. As per Railbricks 7, the rail joints provide a climbing opportunity when going counter-clockwise. I'll go back and test it clockwise later

 

After playing with it for a while I got to thinking about the unpowered axles and that the traction bands are going to be fighting each other on curves. You want one band to ensure the drivers keep spinning, but you do not want two of them because the drag. Thinking further, when you are running the engine going counter-clockwise through a curve you want it to drag on the inside track to pitch the outer wheel away from the rail joints. So that lead me to this solution,

I tried it on my 9v loop and it went fine either direction without any derailing. I only ran it for 5 min, but so far so good. (and it ran fine for over 30 min the next day)

===========

I've heard of a few folks who want to use the model as a dummy engine that is pushed from behind. If you do that, make sure to remove the crown gears from the two axles under the cab so that you do not wind up with all four of the cab wheels fighting with each other on curves. Also remove one or both of the red traction bands from each of the axles under the cab if they are unpowered.

 

[JopieK]

Really nice addition to the train @zephyr1934, they should have contacted you in the first place to add it to every set!

[zephyr1934]

20 hours ago, zephyr1934 said:

I tried it on my 9v loop and it went fine either direction without any derailing. I only ran it for 5 min, but so far so good.

After removing the traction bands yesterday, I ran for over 30 min today on my 9v loop and had no derailing problems.

 

19 hours ago, JopieK said:

Really nice addition to the train @zephyr1934, they should have contacted you in the first place to add it to every set!

You're too kind, thank you

[BrickMusher]

On 7/5/2020 at 2:03 AM, zephyr1934 said:

I did not realize that the rods on the prototype are far more complicated, but there are several other obstacles to creating more realistic rods for this locomotive

When saying that, please be aware of differences in drive-rod configuration between Ce 6/8 II and Ce 6/8 III models.

 

Type 2

Type 3

 

Links are leading to german version of Wikipedia, since they are somewhat more detailed than the english article, but the most important part are anyway the pictures.

[LEGOTrainBuilderSG]

Wow! The custom rods looks really great. Definitely elevates the realism of the model.

[JaBaCaDaBra]

Real great but it would be awesome to manage someting with that VII triangle.
Near impossible... I know.

[zephyr1934]

9 hours ago, BrickMusher said:

When saying that, please be aware of differences in drive-rod configuration between Ce 6/8 II and Ce 6/8 III models.

Indeed yes, I've been studying both designs. The fundamental problem is that the third axle is decoupled. If all three axles were on the same unit then making either rod design work would be a lot easier. Connecting the jackshaft the right way with only two axles would look really unbalanced. Also, in an ideal world the jackshaft would be one more plate higher. In the 10722 design its center is one plate above that of the drive wheels, which makes it hard to get a pinhole in for the jackshaft that does not split the side rod in a bad way. I'm hoping someone comes up with a good MOD to get all three drive axles of a given end on a single unit, I am interested in developing a more prototypical solution. For now though this design is something to start with.

Oh, and thanks for the links. You are correct that the pictures are way better than the English wikipedia.

 

4 hours ago, JaBaCaDaBra said:

Real great but it would be awesome to manage someting with that VII triangle.
Near impossible... I know.

Agreed, and as per above, it will need a larger modification to the model. Something I hope will come in time.

 

7 hours ago, LEGOTrainBuilderSG said:

Wow! The custom rods looks really great. Definitely elevates the realism of the model.

Thanks for the kind words!

[SteamSewnEmpire]

It's a step in the right direction, but, IMO, the locomotive is an irretrievable design to begin with because of the center wheels not being connected. I've always been a firm believer that there is a solid line between "I can accomplish this believably in Lego," and "Lego does not give me the correct tools to accomplish this, so I shouldn't try," and - to me - the crocodile is just a bridge too far with regards to the latter. I'm glad that people are satisfied with the locomotive and improving it. But until all the drivers are properly coupled, complete with the unique 'walking' component, it's a failed design (by Lego).  

[JaBaCaDaBra]

20 minutes ago, SteamSewnEmpire said:

 unique 'walking' component,

You probably mean the balance weigh of the primairy triangular rod.
We will find a way, there ware handy people here you know
And offcourse we are waiting for your stunning solution of these shorts.

Edited July 6, 2020 by JaBaCaDaBra

[SteamSewnEmpire]

15 minutes ago, JaBaCaDaBra said:

You probably mean the balance weigh of the primairy traingular rod.
We will find a way, there ware handy people here you know
And offcourse we are waiting for your stunning solution of these shorts.

I wasn't being critical of zephyr1934, but rather the original, lazy design of the model.

Thanks for getting snide, by the way. And you really hit the mark, too, because I never contribute anything on these forums. Bravo.

Edited July 6, 2020 by SteamSewnEmpire

[supertruper1988]

1 hour ago, SteamSewnEmpire said:

because I never contribute anything on these forums.

Lets remember them together shall we? 

Or how about this? 

Sure is quality here

[SteamSewnEmpire]

Just now, supertruper1988 said:

Lets remember them together shall we? 

Or how about this? 

Sure is quality here

Not a clue what you're talking about. But, hey, you do you, guy.

[JopieK]

Hey guys/gals, chill out... If you threw mud at each other you not only get your hands dirty but also loose a lot of ground 

We know how things work with LEGO don't we. They produce very high quality (mainly) ABS bricks, but they tend to always take some middle ground. And you can easily see why... That train from Brickmania is gorgeous. I especially like those drive / piston elements. But they as a price for it that is insane for our understanding, even though model railroad engines do cost also maybe even more (https://www.maerklinshop.de/en/maerklin/gauge-h0/locomotives/steam-locomotives/61086/class-4000-steam-locomotive).

10277 is an OK set, we get a nice idea and a lot of parts in a color that isn't too bad (dark green would have been better of course), but it is what it is and only at 110 € (at least in NL). Leaves us enough room and options to MOD I would say :)

[LEGO Train 12 Volts]

On 7/5/2020 at 2:03 AM, zephyr1934 said:

Simply delightful!

[Shiva]

Without doing new parts, how could LEGO have done the rods, triangular rods etc as in real life? That's a half brick? off set.

zephyr1934's rod seems quite nice.

And if modifying the model a bit, then his "A single 4 hole 13 long side rod" could be viable too? Or a custom modification of it.

And if modifying even more:

Could the SBB Ce 6/8 III rod version be possible in LEGO? With a custom 13 or 14 long rod, or 13,5 even?

With train wheel holes at positions 1, 9 and 13 "or 13,5 or 14, depending on where the wheel under the cab is placed". The inclined rod/jackshaft position I am not sure of tho. Is half a stud offset up and left/right possible? for the inclined rod? that connects to the traction motor? Or should it be placed -1 and up 1 from the last wheel hole position?

1 is front on the left. 13 below the cab.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c9/Swiss_Rail_SBB_Ce_6_8_14305_14253.jpg

 

Ah yeah, I ordered 10277 from toyspace.se a subsidiary of lekekassen.no . I have got a tracking number, not sure if it is sent yet or not tho.

 

Edited July 6, 2020 by Shiva
Adding text

[zephyr1934]

10277 is an entry point to our hobby and as long as Lego has an AFOL train, we have a gateway. Many builders never wander far from sets and there is nothing wrong with that. The rods in the original post are all about adding a little customization to the set and polish a few rough edges, while keeping the set mostly unchanged.

General comments about the set itself are better placed in the main thread on 10277.

Of course there are many builders on this forum who's work is thousands of times better than any train Lego would mass-produce. No problem there either.

I am definitely interested working with builders who come up with ways to split the frame that keeps all of the driving wheels on one end rigidly together so that it can take a full set of rods. The simplest version (in terms of rods) would probably be Mk III with rods just as Shiva suggested: a 3 hole 13 long rod with uneven spacing (holes at 1, 9 and 13) and an usual length 2 hole rod to match the vertical offset of the jackshaft. I already make all sorts of unusual hole spacings for individual steam engine projects. The triangular rod would take a bit of engineering, but it is certainly a possibility if there's demand. The exact rod will depend on the spacing of all of the axles, so we'll need to see folks gravitate to a particular configuration, model, MOD, or MOC.

Meanwhile, thank you LT12v and Shiva for the kind words!

 

 

[Laura Beinbrech]

This is a cool idea, Zephyr. @SteamSewnEmpire, I've given some thought to how to have all the drivers coupled, but the one solution I came up with (based on the GG-1 instructions I found on BrickLink, and I need to look up whose those were again so I can give credit) would not work with the current motorization scheme, but I might be able to make something work using a (or two) PuP train motors, but we'll see.  I was mostly thinking of modding it into an American style "Steeple Cab" anyways, which has a simpler wheel arrangement, so it might be a moot point anyways.

 

[SteamSewnEmpire]

6 minutes ago, Laura Beinbrech said:

This is a cool idea, Zephyr. @SteamSewnEmpire, I've given some thought to how to have all the drivers coupled, but the one solution I came up with (based on the GG-1 instructions I found on BrickLink, and I need to look up whose those were again so I can give credit) would not work with the current motorization scheme, but I might be able to make something work using a (or two) PuP train motors, but we'll see.  I was mostly thinking of modding it into an American style "Steeple Cab" anyways, which has a simpler wheel arrangement, so it might be a moot point anyways.

 

I agree with you that it can be done, just probably not with the articulation the way it is.

[Shiva]

Is there any room to have the 4185 a stud higher? Or atleast 2 plates? so it could be connected with a rod to a custom made 1 9 13 rod, with a built in thin liftarm/rod connector? or with a place for a 4274, as a connector between the rods?

[JaBaCaDaBra]

7 hours ago, Shiva said:

how could LEGO have done the rods

Actually the middle section should be on boogieplates so the 6 wheels each side stay in line.

[Shiva]

15 minutes ago, JaBaCaDaBra said:

Actually the middle section should be on boogieplates so the 6 wheels each side stay in line.

That's how I plan to mod it. Someday. And that is why I have written about the rods lengths of 13. But I do understand why LEGO did as they did.

[zephyr1934]

8 hours ago, Shiva said:

Is there any room to have the 4185 a stud higher? Or atleast 2 plates? so it could be connected with a rod to a custom made 1 9 13 rod, with a built in thin liftarm/rod connector? or with a place for a 4274, as a connector between the rods?

I had definitely considered a one piece rod that looks like it is two separate rods, but the jackshaft  would need to move up to actually see any of the details. Also, with only the two axles in line the size of the triangular rod simply would not look right

Unfortunately, as built no, the jackshaft is as high as possible. You might be able to redesign how the running boards are held on and add 1-2 plates of clearance, but it would require a moderate redesign of the hood. But then you only have half a stud width to sneak the entire jackshaft mechanism back there and I suspect the connecting rod would conflict with the running boards. At which point one might be better off just redesigning the entire frame to get all 3 driving axles in line.

 

 

 

9 hours ago, SteamSewnEmpire said:

I agree with you that it can be done, just probably not with the articulation the way it is.

I believe there are one or two high end, 3rd party models or instruction sets for a Lego crocodile available out there and I assume they solve many of these problems.

 

LT12V's MOC has some good ideas.

Holgar's build also has some good ideas (e.g., the crankshaft piece for the jackshaft, though I'm not sure how much clutch it has (even better, instructions for this model in red are included in his Lego Trains Book)

Bricks on rails has instructions for a nice looking model as well

[Shiva]

10277's cabin ladders would have to be modified/removed too. If having a long rod.

Edited July 7, 2020 by Shiva

[Laura Beinbrech]

2 hours ago, zephyr1934 said:

I believe there are one or two high end, 3rd party models or instruction sets for a Lego crocodile available out there and I assume they solve many of these problems.

 

LT12V's MOC has some good ideas.

Holgar's build also has some good ideas (e.g., the crankshaft piece for the jackshaft, though I'm not sure how much clutch it has (even better, instructions for this model in red are included in his Lego Trains Book)

Bricks on rails has instructions for a nice looking model as well

Something similar to LegoTrain12v's MOC is along the lines of what I was thinking.