Hedgie

Are these Technic builders collaborating with Lepin? Or are they being ripped off?

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I won't link the LEGO competitor Lepin's website here, but if you look under their "MOC Factory" section you'll see an abundance of MOCs from well-known Technic builders like JaapTechnic, Crowkillers, Loxlego, Madoca, Nico71, etc.

Since many of them are participating on this forum, I'd like to know your feelings about this. Do they have an agreement with Lepin to sell these models? Or is Lepin shamelessly ripping off their creations?

lepin.png

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I think not, just because I found here my models and they have never asked me about anything. It looks like an illegal copy of Rebrickable.com website, even Copyright-watermarked images were copied.

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Just now, Maaboo35 said:

Don't publish pictures of clone crap here. Thanks.

I'm afraid these pictures are probably not showing clones but real Lego. :wink: Just like the building plans, the pictures are stolen from the designers. They're probably counting on no-one bothering to sue in China...

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I understand that it's easy to dismiss Lepin as an evil company that steals. However, I'm wondering if at least some MOC Builders are being compensated for their work. The following quote is from a 2017 interview with Crowkillers:

Quote

“I was approached and asked if I would like to be a part of a new company that wanted to work directly with builders the right way and not only compensate them for their design, but also include their names with those designs to give them the proper credit,” Paul explains.

“Believe me, I had thought long and hard about this and, after seeing so many AFOLs’ MOCs starting to show up as sets without their consent or knowledge, the fear of my work being stolen without my consent was growing.

“I basically felt like I could either get compensated for my work or decline, get nothing and possibly watch my models get stolen by someone else.”

Besides Crowkillers, are there any other MOC builders out here that are willing to admit they were approached by Lepin?

Edited by Hedgie

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T-lego made a deal with Cada to produce the Centenario, and I know that Cada approached more people as well. 
I know Firas (he builds creator expert style cars) worked with xingbao like Paul. But they eventually stopped paying the designers. 

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I'm interested to know this too. I support any MOC builders decision to explore collaboration with other companies, even as a Logo purist. I'm a bit disappointed by the pace at which Lego have moved towards supporting the great work of the Technic MOC builders, so perhaps some ethical competition would help drive the development of both the product and the community. Even the best can be made better, and who here wouldn't like to see that happen if it were possible to do it fairly and ethically? (a big 'IF' that it may be)

As for whether any of these companies provide that fair and ethical competition, I have no idea, which means that I'll still probably pay 5x more to build it with genuine Lego. :hmpf:

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1 hour ago, Hedgie said:

Besides Crowkillers, are there any other MOC builders out here that are willing to admit they were approached by Lepin?

I was approached by three or four different Chinese companies but it's hard to tell what company exactly as I'm being approached via social media, Flickr or Rebrickable. There's no company email address or email signature as in the real business world.  They state they have interest in my designs and want my approval and name with the sets when they sell them, some want a two weeks notice on my designs so they can decide if they want it or not before I publish in the AFOL community. It seems there is competition going on between the clone manufacturers.

They all want to do business and none of them takes it a step further and pay! Meanwhile I have found 3 of my designs being copied, two of them on Lepin World. They shamelessly take my designs AND video's and photo's. I can place links to three of them but won't as I don't want to endorse them in any way. It's not only Technic by the way but one is. The sets are offered without box, you just get a bag of fake bricks delivered at your home.

After Lepin was shut down they have become smarter. They situate themselves as in between sellers of sets but not as manufacturer. They work with lots of manufacturers and it is unclear if they are owned by Lepin and that's how they want it. In China there is a lot more going on that we do not see, the Chinese have no problem with clones.

Edited by Berthil
typos

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It's interesting to see that Lepin continues to sell knockoffs after the 2018 lawsuit and the 2019 raid as if nothing has happened.

It's also interesting to hear that Chinese manufacturers are actually trying to contact MOC builders to attempt to license their designs. Why would they even try if they intend to rip them off anyway?

I believe it's time for Lego to step in and finally offer the community what it wants: an official way to buy MOCs. Their acquisition of BrickLink seems to point in that direction. Will they acquire Rebrickable too?

Edited by Hedgie

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19 minutes ago, Hedgie said:

I believe it's time for Lego to step in and finally offer the community what it wants: an official way to buy MOCs. Their acquisition of BrickLink seems to point in that direction. Will they acquire Rebrickable too?

Too late, Lepin has already acquired Rebrickable

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Why Not... if you will be the Boss on your Own design? No limitations, and have a Big Extra Insensitive, 

i will say again, Why Not...  ? 

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7 hours ago, super-jaschka said:

Even worse when ambassadors think of doing clone reviews:pir-murder:

This is best he could do :excited:  help the ambassador to choose, he does not know which one choose for review:damn:

https://vk.com/rm8technic?w=wall177639081_7274

http://screenshot2020-06-202dnkec.png

Those sets on the picture are not clones of anything. It's Cada's design, they use some unique parts as well. Of all Chinese brands Doubleeagle and their subbrand Cada seems to be more legitimate than others. They have website where you can download the instructions to compare

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Not to minimod, but I'd refrain from using the L word here, because they regularly engage in community IP theft so we don't wanna give them a platform. That and forum rules

On 6/20/2020 at 3:42 AM, Berthil said:

They all want to do business and none of them takes it a step further and pay!

Did they not offer money?

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On 6/19/2020 at 7:42 PM, Berthil said:

It seems there is competition going on between the clone manufacturers.

They all want to do business and none of them takes it a step further and pay!

I can assure that this is not true for CaDA. They do pay.

Beside that we should be more precise when speaking of "clone" companies. Not all Chinese companies steal designs. As mentioned before some have their very own designs and do not copy anything at all.

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15 minutes ago, Pauls Technic said:

I must have been living under a rock as I never knew about any of this.... Can somebody copyright a design of a MOC? 

On what basis could anyone own any rights on a design based on a Ford or a Bugatti for example?

If anything those brands could sue someone selling instructions or sets based on their designs, that is all. Not that it is worth it.

And Lego has nothing to do here. To begin with Lego didn't invent the brick. There were other brands before them.... Yeah they made certain improvements but patents on those expired long ago.

What I do with any Lego parts I purchase, or parts that look like Lego but aren't Lego branded isn't Lego bussiness as long as I don't use the Lego brand.

 

 

 

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44 minutes ago, Pauls Technic said:

I must have been living under a rock as I never knew about any of this.... Can somebody copyright a design of a MOC? 

May depend on the country you live in and the complexity or type of the MOC.

In germany the copyright would be applied automatically if the MOC is recognizeable as a "Creative Work".

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4 minutes ago, Gimmick said:

May depend on the country you live in and the complexity or type of the MOC.

In germany the copyright would be applied automatically if the MOC is recognizeable as a "Creative Work".

As far as I know it kind of go like this:

If your MOC is a sculpture made out of Lego bricks, as long as that sculpture is an original design you might be covered by copyright.

If your MOC is a functional item like a car you will need to patent the design to get any rights.

 

Lego Technic by nature is closer to beign mechanical than creative hence closer to patents than to copyright. Once the patents over a design expire its free for all.

Any reproduction of an existing thing like a car is by definition not a creative work.

 

In a MOC Lego Technic is just the medium, just like clay or wood, so little relevance on itself, except that for the most part its a medium for creating mechanisms, something not covered by copyright.

By the way Lego lost many trials trying to copyright bricks. A 2x4 red brick isn't like Mickey Mouse, Lego has no rights over it.

 

So usually MOCs are infringing on someone else rights and not covered by any rights.

 

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54 minutes ago, aol000xw said:

On what basis could anyone own any rights on a design based on a Ford or a Bugatti for example?

I remember Jeroen Ottens asking the car manufacturer for permission to label his MOC as <car brand X> and <car brand x> was like: nope. 

 

So ya, MOC designers own nothing. Some do give permission of course, some even give jobs to well known MOCers to build one (some ship scale models come to mind). 

 

Personally I once got a request on Flickr from some Chinese company (not sure which) if I wanted to make a set out of my Rolls-Royce Phantom. I declined. 

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57 minutes ago, Appie said:

I remember Jeroen Ottens asking the car manufacturer for permission to label his MOC as <car brand X> and <car brand x> was like: nope. 

Didn't he do that with an auto brand beginning with "L" who already has a (probably exclusive) license with Lego?

You can play smarter than that.

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3 hours ago, legophisto said:

I can assure that this is not true for CaDA. They do pay.

Beside that we should be more precise when speaking of "clone" companies. Not all Chinese companies steal designs. As mentioned before some have their very own designs and do not copy anything at all.

Surely you know a clone is a copy of the original so a clone is not own design. So when I talk about clone I talk about companies stealing designs to copy them 1 on 1 without permission. So all other companies that make their own design do not fall under that.

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4 minutes ago, Berthil said:

Surely you know a clone is a copy of the original so a clone is not own design. So when I talk about clone I talk about companies stealing designs to copy them 1 on 1 without permission. So all other companies that make their own design do not fall under that.

My fault. Sorry for that!

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Creative works are always subject to copyright, and it doesn't matter if the medium is Lego or paint and canvas. The problem here arises on the definition of what's creative work and what's not, but MOCs based on real world vehicles cannot be copyrighted by the MOC designer, as the copyright already belongs to the company owning the rights of the real vehicle. Something like Akiyuki's GBC designs, however, could conceivably be protected by copyright laws as a kinetic sculpture, but it's hard to say for sure without an actual court ruling on the matter.

Patents are completely different and for patent to be granted, one must invent something genuinely new. So it's really hard to see how a car MOC could be patentable, as it's hard to see how building with Lego would allow any sort of novel functionality that isn't already invented for real vehicles or other electromechanical devices.

Trademarks are yet different animal, and it's more like a protection of identity, to make sure that products of one company can't be mistaken to being made or endorsed by another entity so it's not exactly about the product itself, but about how it's presented to the public. So if a building blocks company produces an original design but presents it like a Lego product (packaging design, logo, etc.) it's a violation of trademark laws but if they present it as clearly distinguishable from Lego products it's perfectly legitimate as far as trademarks are considered.

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