Lego 10277 - Crocodile Locomotive

[Elektrychka]

11 minutes ago, Matt Dawson said:

Crocodile set now listed on UK S@H, for £89.99! Not available to pre-order.

I'm sorry to tell you but this was already mentioned.

 

But what I want to say... Price in Germany is 99,99€, price in Poland is roughly 100€, and then price in all Baltic states is 119,99€... Yes, Lego will have really big revenues there and my relatives in Germany will have much work to do for me :) (shipping by post costs 5 euro). 

[Vilhelm22]

25 minutes ago, Elektrychka said:

I'm sorry to tell you but this was already mentioned.

 

But what I want to say... Price in Germany is 99,99€, price in Poland is roughly 100€, and then price in all Baltic states is 119,99€... Yes, Lego will have really big revenues there and my relatives in Germany will have much work to do for me :) (shipping by post costs 5 euro). 

I guess where it’s most well known they can charge the highest price.  This could in part also explain the low price in the US (it’s $100, despite €1 equalling $1.12).

Edited June 19, 2020 by Vilhelm22

[Matt Dawson]

20 minutes ago, Vilhelm22 said:

I guess where it’s most well known they can charge the highest price.  This could in part also explain the low price in the US (it’s $100, despite €1 equalling $1.12).

Bear in mind the US price doesn't include sales tax/VAT as this varies state-to-state. The UK/EU prices will include VAT (20% in UK, for example). 

[Vilhelm22]

Just now, Matt Dawson said:

Bear in mind the US price doesn't include sales tax/VAT as this varies state-to-state. The UK/EU prices will include VAT (20% in UK, for example). 

Of course - I was forgetting that.  It irritates me so much - if I was to work out how much I’d paid TLG in VAT, I wonder how much I could buy...?

[Tcm0]

1 hour ago, Dirk1313 said:

This is because the sellers on bricklink buy large quantities of sets at low price and sell the individual elements. For example they would buy the TopGear car which comes with expensive PU elements such as the Technic hub but as the set is so cheap they can sell the PU components at very low price.

Another aspect is that PUP is pretty unpopular. The sellers buy train sets for the tracks and the train parts (which add up to maybe 80% of the price) and since popularity of pup is low they have to make them cheap to sell them. But it doesn't matter because they got most of the price back with the other parts.

[ChrisO]

On 6/17/2020 at 11:20 AM, Coolusername said:

Now i know why the blind wheels are mid air! Because the whole model is placed on two bricks on the stand. If you remove those bricks all wheels should touch the rails. Or is it because of the rubber band?

Watching the video on the Lego 10277 crocodile locomotive product page shows that the blind wheels are floating above the rails

[Matt Dawson]

33 minutes ago, ChrisO said:

Watching the video on the Lego 10277 crocodile locomotive product page shows that the blind wheels are floating above the rails

The train floats as the central section is on 1x4 bricks, which elevates it slightly.

[ChrisO]

14 minutes ago, Matt Dawson said:

The train floats as the central section is on 1x4 bricks, which elevates it slightly.

I know that. Watch the video! from 1:04 to 1:08 the train is driving and the front section bounces up and down; most of the time the blind wheels do NOT touch the rails.

[Vilhelm22]

2 hours ago, ChrisO said:

I know that. Watch the video! from 1:04 to 1:08 the train is driving and the front section bounces up and down; most of the time the blind wheels do NOT touch the rails.

Agreed, so the 1x4 bricks can’t be the issue.  The only other reason I can think of is that the rubber bands on all the other large wheels (not the blind drivers) raise them off the tracks slightly.  Whilst moving, realistically this won’t make a difference, but when on display the red traction tyres look bad anyway and should be removed.  Hopefully it shouldn’t be too much of a problem.

[scooper22]

18 minutes ago, Vilhelm22 said:

Agreed, so the 1x4 bricks can’t be the issue.  The only other reason I can think of is that the rubber bands on all the other large wheels (not the blind drivers) raise them off the tracks slightly.  Whilst moving, realistically this won’t make a difference, but when on display the red traction tyres look bad anyway and should be removed.  Hopefully it shouldn’t be too much of a problem.

The raised wheels an already be seen as early as 0:19.

It looks like the snap-connection from the main body to the two noses is one or maybe a half stud too high, the grey areas don't have the same height:

I know the body is 7 and the nose 5 studs wide but the marked areas are both 6.

Edited June 19, 2020 by scooper22

[Toastie]

9 hours ago, Dirk1313 said:

This is because the sellers on bricklink buy large quantities of sets at low price and sell the individual elements. For example they would buy the TopGear car which comes with expensive PU elements such as the Technic hub but as the set is so cheap they can sell the PU components at very low price.

Hmm. This does not entirely make sense, does it? At least business-wise not. Or something else is - at least partly - the reason.

I have come to the conclusion that either TLG does not want to sell their electronic devices (regardless of make and type) separately, or they make an insane profit as there are enough people who purchase the stupidly expensive stuff. I sure hope it is the former as the latter would make them look very, very greedy.

Here is my reasoning - others may have much more insight into the details, so forgive me if I am totally off. First: In every collaboration we have - with no exceptions - with manufacturers of what some call advanced analytical instrumentation - electronic equipment, once developed, causes only marginal additional material and construction cost. China is your friend. So one could argue that the hardware used in the PuP/Spike/etc devices is soooo expensive - but that is of course nonsense. BLE along with all the hardware used is dead cheap. A BLE equipped microcontroller whatnot clone cost you nothing. And still, some people make money on that. Sure any PuP etc. device may run on super chips, but I doubt that: These are all plain vanilla micro-controller environments. Well then maybe the software engineering is soooo expensive along with the idiot proofing that is required, so e.g. kids don't swallow the Technic hub or new XL motor - or if - it does not do any harm, pops out again and runs as if nothing happened. That sort of thing IS surely expensive.

So far so good. Hopefully not so many buy the electronic devices separately (see above, that's what I sure hope). But: Wrapped-up in a box with ABS bricks, the price drops almost by an order of magnitude - otherwise BL price tags are stupid. And BL sellers are all other but stupid. The only reasons I can think of are:

1) ABS bricks cost TLG next to nothing. As they are produced in infinite amounts, even an injection molding machine will pay-off after a while - hundreds of times. And not the entire machine is scraped once worn out. So they have the sooo expensive electronic device, add ABS bricks at virtually no cost for them, print a price tag compensating for everything multiplied by 5 and boom - revenue. Oh yes, the set has to be designed etc. etc. but hey.

2) They produce so many of the individual sets containing electronic device + ABS bricks + instruction booklet that the price comes down for everything so that everything becomes much cheaper. In that case though, I'd rather produce twice as many electronic devices at low price and put them on S&H for a factor of 2 - 3 less. Always slightly above BL tags - just to make sure that "what is expensive at the original manufacturer must be good". But €25 BL vs €80 S&H ???

Hmm. And now what? It all seems to be ... way too expensive on S&H. I hope they simply don't want to sell that stuff separately. That's all. Hopefully.

Best
Thorsten 

               

[Tcm0]

4 hours ago, Toastie said:

Hmm. And now what? It all seems to be ... way too expensive on S&H. I hope they simply don't want to sell that stuff separately. That's all. Hopefully.

Best
Thorsten 

               

The BL prices reflect the market value, not the production cost. If people want train parts but not the electronic parts magnetic buffers, track and train base plates get expensive and the electronic parts get cheap. Sellers buy the sets to part out the other parts and the electronic parts stay as leftover (there is e.g. only one set to get the large wheels of the technic offroad crawler although they are super cool). Many, many fans don't want to switch to the new system so demand is very low for that - especially afols that are the main customer group of bricklink.

[Toastie]

12 minutes ago, Tcm0 said:

The BL prices reflect the market value, not the production cost.

I can clearly see that. But that does in return mean that the S&H prices reflect the production cost, right? Or what do these prices reflect? 

And I simply cannot get a grasp on that. $80 for a BLE micro controller with 4 I/O ports in a nice ABS housing with custom ports and "in development firmware" - no. I do not. Do you?

Best
Thorsten

 

[Kaanere]

24 minutes ago, Toastie said:

I can clearly see that. But that does in return mean that the S&H prices reflect the production cost, right? Or what do these prices reflect? 

And I simply cannot get a grasp on that. $80 for a BLE micro controller with 4 I/O ports in a nice ABS housing with custom ports and "in development firmware" - no. I do not. Do you?

 Best
Thorsten

 

They certainly don't reflect their production costs. The 42109 Rally Car's PU components would cost about 150€ if bought directly, while the set costs 130€! My guess for that markup is that TLC would rather have customers buying whole sets (and all non-electronic pieces they contain), instead of buying the electronic parts separately. Also, keep in mind that every item in Bricklink comes from a Lego set, so they still reap an indirect profit from those.

[Rail Co]

@Toastie I can tell you right now that Lego is overpricing their electronics by quite a bit (as everyone has worked out). I can tell you right now that I could buy an arduino or any other similar microcontroller board and build my own train controller for cheaper than what they are asking. Will it have an app? No. Will it be in a fancy case? No. However, it could run a train around the track and I could even add bluetooth (while not as seemless as Lego's design) for an extra couple of bucks.

I have looked at images from the powered up M motors and the PF M motors and can tell you there is very little difference between them. While I find the PuP M motor is still reasonably priced, I can't see why the L motor is 3x the price of the PF one.

The only thing I can think of is if something was expensive to manufacture with these new motors, i.e. they had to create their own custom IC chip or component that they want to pay off. However, I find that unlikely as most of the parts are readily available for their purposes. For example the most expensive part of these hubs are the microcontrollers built into them. They can be bought for about $2.30, and that is only if you buy 1. The more you buy the more you save with a bulk rate.

I do think Lego is being stingy here. While the system works fairly well and it is nice to be able to use your phone as a controller, it's hard to justify the price unless you can find a good way to get the motors or hubs cheaper. Like I have done on bricklink.

Just my 2 cents,

-RailCo 

[LegoDW]

My thoughts....if TLG sell it, people will buy it.  I'm just glad they don't charge more for their stuff!

[Bartybum]

I'm almost certain this is just them trying to make people have to buy sets instead of just electronics.

[zephyr1934]

19 hours ago, Toastie said:

Hmm. This does not entirely make sense, does it? At least business-wise not. Or something else is - at least partly - the reason.

I have come to the conclusion that either TLG does not want to sell their electronic devices (regardless of make and type) separately, or they make an insane profit as there are enough people who purchase the stupidly expensive stuff. I sure hope it is the former as the latter would make them look very, very greedy.

...

Hmm. And now what? It all seems to be ... way too expensive on S&H. I hope they simply don't want to sell that stuff separately. That's all. Hopefully.

Lego is positioned as a "premium brand", e.g., if you call customer service about a broken part, even an expensive broken part, they will usually sent out a replacement no questions asked. They are definitely aiming for the high profit margins. You look at the price per brick in a set and then look at the price per brick on line at PAB and then at BL if you find the right brick (e.g., a red 1x6) you will probably see the same margins. And as customers we do get a certain level of value for it. You know that the parts will fit together without question... and do so in an infinite number of different ways. (well, except for those 1x bricks, plates and tiles that are prone to cracking... or the inconsistent color)

Anyway, there was good reason why Lego wanted to buy BL. Even if they never change the prices on BL, it is an insane amount of information on customers and aftermarket values.

 

 

15 hours ago, Toastie said:

And I simply cannot get a grasp on that. $80 for a BLE micro controller with 4 I/O ports in a nice ABS housing with custom ports and "in development firmware" - no. I do not. Do you?

The simple fact that FxBricks, SBricks, etc. can make enough money to stay in business even though they are developing and producing plug and play Lego compatible electronic components in the 100's to 1000's instead of 100k to 10M already answers that question

[JaBaCaDaBra]

12 minutes ago, zephyr1934 said:

a broken part, even an expensive broken part, they will usually sent out a replacement no questions asked.

Oh no, forget about that.
If you do a service request it's first checked.
I myself bought an Mindstorms education set at lego-discounter here and had to find out that the seal of the set was broken and all cables were missing.
A request for missing parts went through a control procedure first.

I received the cables but a lot of questions had to be answered.
 

[dr_spock]

It probably used to be no questions asked.  Maybe they found too many people were abusing the system.  A few years ago, they replaced my Mindstorm NXT with questions like my name and address.  All I had to do was ship back the broken one to them.

Hopefully, they'll be good with replacement parts for the Crocodile since it is reddish-brown.  I seem to encounter more breakage with reddish-brown than other colors. 

 

 

[Polarlicht]

Hope someone will make a mod with the center disc wheel thingy connected to the rods and spinning.

[Vilhelm22]

3 hours ago, Coolusername said:

Hope someone will make a mod with the center disc wheel thingy connected to the rods and spinning.

The problem with this is that requires a different motorisation technique - as the motors are, like on the prototype, in the noses, so it requires a motor in each nose as a result...

[dr_spock]

3 hours ago, Coolusername said:

Hope someone will make a mod with the center disc wheel thingy connected to the rods and spinning.

You could probably replace the disc with a Technic pulley wheel, some Technic pins and Technic beam.  I think a 9L beam is long enough connect those two wheels and the disc together.  A train wheel with a tire would have enough friction to turn wheels and disc.  Be sure to quarter the connecting rods (beam). 

 

[Tcm0]

17 hours ago, Rail Co said:

I have looked at images from the powered up M motors and the PF M motors and can tell you there is very little difference between them. While I find the PuP M motor is still reasonably priced, I can't see why the L motor is 3x the price of the PF one.

The difference is that the new l motor contains a relative and an absolute position sensor while the old one contained no sensors. It might have to be calubrated etc.

Of course the electronic pieces are much more expensive than they would cost normally. But it can also be related to savety regulations (it's a kid toy) etc. It's expensive on the first look, but not actually that expensive if you compare it to sbrick or something similar.

[Wimmer]

On 5/25/2020 at 8:30 AM, zephyr1934 said:

Wow! I get distracted for a minute and this happens? I don't believe it, I thought lego would never make another AFOL train.

As others have said, I think the presentation is excellent, by making it a display model it will attract many more buyers, tapping into the non-train folks in the architecture and "model cars" (e.g., Ford Mustang) markets. There's no way they could have done a full train justice with a set this size and the price point (if truly 99) is very good. There are many train head AFOLs, but there are many more static model AFOL's out there who will be likely to buy this set.

I can totally understand where people are coming from wishing there were cars either in the set or available elsewhere. But that was one of the failings of EN, it had ONE coach. It needed 5 or 6 coaches. And so the locomotive showed compromises, e.g., the tiny tender. It would have been better as a two set offering- one loco and one car. But Lego has these sales targets that make it hard for AFOL trains to succeed. I think they did a great job threading the needle with the croc.

It would be great if they use this model to push their "instructions app" (they would love to replace the printed instruction books with digital instructions) by putting a few car design "inspirations" in the app that could be built either from parts in the set (except perhaps the normal train wheels) as if it were a 3in1 set and/or parts that they know will be on PaB for the duration of the set.

Regardless, I would not worry much about the availability of cars, people will make sets and instructions for cars to go behind the locomotive (that would make for a fantastic Bricktober train competition- make instructions for cars to go behind this loco)

I only wish they had made it in dark green rather than brown, it would have been an amazing parts pack on top of being what looks like an amazing set.

Now, how many copies do I need of this set...?

 

Copies ?  I’m thinking of two or three myself. All the other trains are now hugely profitable if you have any more copies.