Bob

Pirates Mafia III - Conclusion

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10 hours ago, Bob said:

Daniel Lucas - Medzomorak: I'm not entirely sure where to begin. I know this was your first game on Eurobricks, but I don't know if you understand entirely how we play here. I don't know why your playstyle changed so seemingly from Pirates II to Pirates III. A lot of people are going to have some things to say about your behavior. I know that you're not used to the way we play. Every place and format does it differently, I've found. We have our own unique meta here. I recently played IRL mafia on Zoom and it's completely different. I feel that we threw you right into the deep end with this game. Most new players have to play a mafia school first which is a very basic game and format. Just because somebody doesn't agree with your viewpoints and issues a rebuttal doesn't mean you need to get abrasive. When I attempted to calm everyone down, you went after me, claiming that I stacked the scum team with veterans so they'd win. This bothered me. If you've got a problem with the game, wait until the end to air them.

I don't know what else to say that's not already been said in the deadboard. I still don't know what happened on Day One and Two. One day I'm going to have to reread them. I'm just disappointed that you took out your frustrations with the game on not only other players, but me. 

Ehmhhmeem. Hmm, very well. Since you revealed my true profile I think we should clear some things up here.

I am stunned by this feedback and I really thought this would've been laughed upon by all of us after the game. I think you are missing the mark.

First of all, thanks for the effort you take to host these games. The narrations and builds make it so much more cozy compared to other platforms.

I planned to piggyback off my identity of my previous characters to make myself truly anonymus after a couple of games - as I think it really should be. But since every other forumites' previous play patterns are also revealed - and quite obvious - by many different games at this point, it is more fair this way. Not that most of you would have not tracked things back to my profile and not that it would make any difference considering I'm relatively new on the whole forum.

As a matter of fact I am not a new player in terms of general mafia gaming at all. With EB games naturally I am, but many things I asked you about in PM were more like a survey to get a picture about the whole meta going on here. I do felt at the time that something is not okay with the game setups and available information. Also I saw you being a player as well in games hosted by else and also considering that the others already have the knowledge about each other I found it more fair for you to think of me as a newbie. With these two long games in the bag I actually do have some criticism which I can address now and being truly serious about it. I hope you believe it is with constructive intentions.

To clear up the heated arguments some of us have made against each other and my response you refered to as me going after you. In short, this was just how the play turned out.

I am surprised you'd think this was some kind of honest hatred or frustration from me/us (I can only speak for myself of course) getting out of hand. In my opinion that's how the game went and nothing more. I admit I was stunned that you asked us to be more calm, because if you wanted to show your displease with the game as the host, it was way too late for that. This is why I implied that Paul situation which you ignored at the time and this is why I said that if you honestly meant it, you should've stopped the game right after the first personal remark and cleared up your own rules. I do claim that I was just adapting and reacting to different players in the same manner I believed they were playing. I got no response but now reading your feedback I think you may see me as the cause of this or imply that I've started it and this is just plainly wrong. I did not start to play like that, again, I merely adapt. Yes, I am indeed coming from a chat-based platform, which you probably have guessed most of the time hosts very heated debates. But even there we do not play like that until some teens do not find the platform and troll in to start trash talking. Most of the time we just instantly outvote these or even start talking back like that to show our perfect ability of doing the same or even find out if there is some actual reason behind all of it. And naturally the rules are explicit about behaviours, you can't insult other players in their religion, sexual orientation, nationality, etc... you know the drill. Everything else is just game on. Can't recall how many times I had to read back days of texts within a couple of minutes to find the evidence hidden between tons of F*CK YOUs. Personally I don't like it but if that's the way it goes, you need to adapt. The fact that you even had the time to have a chat with Kristel about this on the Deadbord,  mentioning civility, tells me you are out of touch in this matter. I am SHOCKED to read now that you had the time to have problems with me beaing a meanie in a mafia game with your long known friends, but with the other direction you were just using double standards and seemingly ignored complete posts. Again if you preach about civility, you were days, even a week late by the time I started to give something back properly my own way. EB has its own standards of course but this game is different so you should make all things very clear right at the beginning of the game, otherwise - in my opinion- even the host has no place whatsoever to roam in and tell players how to make their play.

And for my main observation about hosted games here.

I think it is simply criminal that there is not a single index page already with proper instruction about every possible EB-native mafia roles and possible variations. Maybe you had played so many games before you guys just started to feel bored of strict rules and that's why these overly "dynamic" game setups are being played instead. I have some comments on this, but that is not even the whole matter.  The first thing was Bob sending my rolecop descriptions by switching up the alignment and role definitions. Not in a personal way of course, but I was very annoyed with you Bob already at that moment, because as a matter of fact, I knew what a rolecop was. I had to ask back, explicitly clearing up the difference between the two terms to see if you are actually using the proper nomenclature. Again I mean no offense, your narrative work and time input is amazing, but these are the less important things compared the actual core role mechanisms and you were lazy about that. Maybe you did not have the time to pay attention, maybe you just made a mistake or something. Or maybe you just did not care. This is why I say there should be an index for every game hosted and every variations should be changed on that, not just randomly throwing things out in the open. Even referencing the mafia wiki all over the place is is totally redundant if you even take the liberty to swap explicitly named roles with each other. You hosted with the knowledge that some players are potential newbies. There is no way you could justify these changes to them(us). When Liam claimed to us in PM as a commuter while practically having a jailer role I was mad. My instant thought was that this is just bad. What would've happened if I read Liam as a rolecop? Would you have sent me a message telling me he is commuter, while he was not? Would you have explicitly explained the situation or just let it play out and call it a quality game? Why not random generating strings and sending those back? I can create endless theories what kind of roles could produce that and my play won't be any smarter.

I'd very much like to argue that it is a horrible delusion that putting such degrees of freedom into a party game with originally strict rules makes the game quality doubtlessly better. It is misconception seen in many board, card and social games before. Creating too many open variables are not correlating with the actual complexity-thinking needed to play the game. I remember my favorite collectibe card game dying out because the designers kept adding more and more cards, attributes and random event possibilities to milk the game in spite of the community's best players' protestation, who knew exactly that more options in an uncontrolled way will only bring in overly random coefficients. The most brilliant games in history have the most simple rulesets. Many board games are plain bad and boring because the designers' idea of overcomplicating things actually made it either too one-sided with overpowered boring metas or too random because of uncontrollable RNG elements. Without actual indices of potential roles the game will end up more like an RNGfest. I don't know if this is the exact reason you omitted conversions here as well, but the way it was done in Pirates I for an example, was just wrong. Played out nicely by Patrick for sure, but converting a claimed and almost confirmed jailer while not even the roles are known are plainly broken. There is a reason why in most games you can't just go around and converty anybody you want.

Analogies are always off, but it is almost like playing chess and some of the pieces could randomly change their moves when the host says so. After some critical point it won't make the game more complex, but more random. On the final days when they were theorizing about the necessary parities to end the game in case of a 3rd party player, about the host potentially giving out new strongshots while the game is still on, arguing about different mafia wiki interpretations.... was simply painful. That was a meme-game level, if this is what is going on D7-D8, the game is already done being anything good.

And finally about my remarks on some player's move being good or not. Well again, some of my talk was just part of the play, some of it was an honest opinion. I don't see any reason to take it personally or bringing too much emotions into that. I was in home office because of the virus and I had too much spare time even besides my job. I've also played around a hundred different half-hour mafia games while I was doing this one as well, so believe me, I know my shit when I'm talking about this game and I know my win ratios there as well. Also I was getting much bigger flamewars on the other side to be angry with anyone else here. I wanted to join the mafiascum.net championship too, but a bigger job came in and 500 daily posts would have overwhelmed even me, so I backed out. Maybe next year, we'll see.

Yes, I know what you're thinking. I know you think of me as the arrogant dude coming here with all this, you Bob and Kristel took your time to voice this on the Deadboard. Maybe you are right. Maybe from another perspective, this looks quite different. Personally I now read you posting the pretty arrogant things off-game behind my back while I am aware of my time input in this game. I even tend to play with friends in real life where you have to lie into the face of your best friend who knows you for 13 years. I'm even planning a python-written program to play the automated chat-based version to finally get some exact analytics of game setups and optimal strategy theories. From my perspective maybe you are denying that there are general aspects to this game regardless of your local meta and setups.

There is no other way to put it so I will. Some of the plays here were plainly amateur. You even call each other's play - like claiming mason without any basic mason evidence (while I was just 'schooled' on claiming being overated and this was not even an open setup) - a good effort. I know you guys are friends, but this is simply bad for the game and you should just take a bad move as it is and not being always so gentle and reassuring with each others, like fancy rich producers on an Oscar gala. I had my questionable moves for sure, but you ignoring all the obvious things won't let me go without a word after your feedback. Well, I do think some of these setup aspects let's us to do totally bad moves and justify ourselves later on, quickly labeling them as EB meta and with "this is how it goes here" stuff. I told Justin this too, many plays here were like under-betting an obviously redundant river while check-raising at the turn before. To vote and say something only for the sake of posting out characters.

There are 600 pages long books about different chess defense systems and you can still play and experience chess for 10 years without taking a single look at them. They'll still be true and valid nonetheless. And I'm reading now, that you also talked quite a bit in the Deadboard about me being totally off about theories of the game, while again, even your initial instructions sent to me (to a supposed newbie) suggested that Mafia is not being taken too seriously here. Maybe I was all over the place and you guys played it out perfectly. Maybe I used the unvote option as intended when it was quite clear that we're going to lynch villies or maybe you had the point and we had to check them out anyway. Maybe I was too pushy with Fabien or maybe he discarded my theory and killed the claimed jailer instead while not even having the detective intel his actions implied. Maybe you were right in the Deadboard that scum did not play together or maybe there was a scum on the wagon with Joshua indeed. Maybe Emmett should have taken me a bit more seriously I could've let go my sus on him and we could've nailed the only non-claimed voter or maybe I was just too annoying at that point and we had to go chasing ghosts for 2 days instead. Maybe we should just accept that this is one forum with lego heads talking to each others while there are platforms where things move on a totally different level. Again by the time you guys finally ended this one I've bagged a dozen of other plays and wins and I have been played and made a fool just as many times to see this one just another piece in the puzzle. Maybe I just humble myself to adapt to this meta as well, maybe I'll just actually learn the secret and nail these games too, or maybe I'll just endlessly theorize around on D7 about 3:3:1 or 4:3 parities. A lot of maybes and your off-game Deadboard remark on me with all the exact information by the host is completely unfair. We can go on about each other's abilities and actual ambitions in getting better in this game, as far as I see how reactions and emotions work here I say it won't make any real difference.

For the record, to ease this arrogant picture of me inside your heads, I'd have to say I had too many bad moves I am more annoyed about. Exactly those troglodyte ones I like to preach against all the time. My PM to Vincent was a total backfire, because it just confirmed me more that this guy is absolutely no Town (and not even the one I was thinking of, namely a stinking scum), but I was kinda aware of that already and I just fed his position needlessly. Also I'm not a fan of townies being able to talk with each other during the night but for the first time was excited about the idea of this angle and jumped on it with too much haste. I think even getting the information I needed caused more problems, being too vague with a hundred possibilities of non-disclosed random roles all the time. It just made me miss Jean's softing so hard and our timing against each other was just unfortunate. When I've finally got his soft message I literally banged my head on the desk. Also no, you won't jail your cop, I don't even understand how the actual protector missed him. Also I missed your hidden acrostic message Hinck, while I was indeed checking many posts before. By that time I gave up on the idea that this is used here and since we were already best friends 4ever by D2, I did not check your first post as well. This was my part of the huge arrogance kicking in. But you revealing it later was a heartwarming sight, I totally loved it.

If what you said Bob in the Deadboard, that some players were thinking of leaving the game because of me, I have to say, maybe they really should. If these are their true emotion, it just tells me they don't have what it takes and I just made a good job for the sake of quality Mafia. If I was too much, you guys don't know anything about real savages. This was one of the most lazy and slowest game I've ever seen and you guys complained about too many posts.... I do think if you don't have the time to play a game you joined to, you should not play at all. 96 hours per day.

I do think this meta needs more rock 'n' roll and I have my own style and ambitions with the game to contribute the way I can. And today town eventually won, thanks to Shadows making the home run with Hinck's assistance. So where is the problem?

I had my good times, headbangs and laughs in spite of all the things I observed to be not cool and I learned some of the valuable lessons I was actually looking for. If I'm going to be conveniently taken as some big-mouthed smart-aleck, I guess that is the way it is and if the host of a game won't need me I won't get an account to play and the story ends there.

Thanks again for the game.

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Come off it, dude. If I wanted to take it seriously I'd play somewhere that isn't here. I'm here for jokes and pretty pictures.

I like it when it's cozy.

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9 minutes ago, jimmynick said:

Come off it, dude. If I wanted to take it seriously I'd play somewhere that isn't here. I'm here for jokes and pretty pictures.

:laugh_hard: Sure thing. Dude.

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13 hours ago, Medzomorak said:

 But you revealing it later was a heartwarming sight, I totally loved it.

Thank you!

Here are the Night Actions I sent to Bob, everybody:

On 4/15/2020 at 1:54 PM, Hinckley said:

**I tiptoe to the door of Redbeard's cell, holding the keys, I stole from Patrick Triggs, tightly so as to be sure they didn't jingle–waking anybody. As I put the key into the lock, the very tiny noise of metal on metal makes Redbeard stir. Gee, what a light sleeper. I encourage him to be quiet, "Shh—*FWOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM!!!*"

Fuck! Why'd I bring my tuba?? And why'd I keep it so close to my mouth and forget it was there when I went to shush Redbeard? Maybe I am an inbred forum jerk after all!!

I run back to my quarters before anybody can catch me. No attempt to free Redbeard tonight.**

Bob gave me a one-shot "Free Redbird" action. As long as I wasn't blocked, I would be successful. I knew I'd be blocked because Daniel was a jailkeeper so I kept sending attempts.

On 4/21/2020 at 8:52 AM, Hinckley said:

I sneak out at night, determined to free Redbeard. I'm even smart enough to leave my tuba in my quarters this time. On my way to Redbeard's chambers, Daniel steps in my way.

"You didn't say 'you didn't target anyone' you said 'you didn't target anyone successfully,' which indicates you have an active role. If Emmett would've said his result said 'you didn't target anyone' you'd have said 'that's correct' and then you would've been lying, so you're a liar."

"Um..." I begin to reply, but Daniel continues.

"I thought you were going to contact me," he says, "You said in thread that you could discuss it at night, but you didn't contact me so I'm contacting you. If you have an important role, do you want protection?"

"No," I say, "I'd rather die."

"I don't know why you're not being more clear about your role. If you know something about these three blockers that one of them is lying, you should tell us. On mafia.gg the proper way to handle a roleclaim is to tell Daniel everything he wants to know, because I'm the super smartest and shouldn't be questioned but at the same time should get all the answers I feel entitled to. How do you not know this?"

"I really gotta poo." I say and I head back to my quarters.

As I bury my head in the bell of my tuba so I don't have to hear Daniel, who is still yammering outside my door, I decide I won't try to free Redbeard tonight, either, because Daniel has too much confidence in his skills.

On 4/25/2020 at 5:21 PM, Hinckley said:

* I stuff a burlap sack with all the dead crows I've pulled out of my tuba and hide it under my covers. I paint a coconut yellow and draw a generic smiley on it and place it on my pillow. Taking my tuba with me for courage, I take the previously stolen cell keys, leave my room and hide around the corner before Daniel can see what I'm up to. Not two seconds go by and Daniel is at my door, yammering endlessly.

"You're a pussy. You're a jar of urine. You're unprofessional. You're a snowflake. You're super pathetic. Are your wife and kids proud of the way you're insulting someone you don't know anything about? Do you feel good about yourself? I'm the God of mafia and I'm your God now so kneel and pray, bitch."

:wacko:

At least the dummy fooled him. I skip the drama and find Redbeard in his cell, unlock the door and set him free. He's all like, "Yaaaaaaarhgh. Thanks and junk. If there's anything I can do for ye in return, just say the waaaaaaaard."

"Can you stab Daniel in the back of the head for me?" I ask.

"Saaaaaaaaary lad," He says, "Can't hear ye. Stabbed myself in both ears to end the torture you all were putting me through with that screeching royal twat you got in yer ranks. I think ye said something about a knife. Here ye go."

Redbeard hands me his knife and hops over the seawall. I think he lands on a walrus but I can't tell for sure.

In the moonlight, I play my tuba, "Fwooooooom fwom fwom, fwom fwom fwom, Fwooooooooom, fwom fwom fwom" :pir-sing: Freeeeeeeee Beeeeeeeeard Flyyyyyyyyy! *Fwomma fwomma fwom fwom fwom*

I hope the blaring tuba and scream singing didn't catch anyone's attention. I tiptoe back to my quarters.

Daniel is still there, yammering insults at the dummy in my bed.

I hold the knife in my hand...

I stare at the base of his skull...

Am I a murderer?... :pir-look: *

I also asked Bob several times for a one-shot strongarm night kill.

On 4/30/2020 at 3:23 PM, Hinckley said:

For my night action, I will sneak around Andrew (probably Fred since Andrew announced to me that he was blocking me :hmpf: ) and go kick Daniel's corpse. But, just once. Don't want to disrespect the dead.

Then I'll prepare myself for Justin flipping Town. I really hope he does. If he does, I'm going to attempt a hugely risky gambit to catch the final Scum. If Fabien flips Town, well, then... I probably quit.

I meant "Fabien" and "Scum." I was probably drunk.

Remember the days when we used to attack the hosts? :laugh: We don't do that anymore. Hosts are quite open to respectful, constructive criticism. I think that's nice.

*Fwoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooom*

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40 minutes ago, Hinckley said:

Bob gave me a one-shot "Free Redbird" action. As long as I wasn't blocked, I would be successful. I knew I'd be blocked because Daniel was a jailkeeper so I kept sending attempts.

Was freeing Redbeard required, or was he just trying to distract you with something shiny, only to discover that it made you even crazier?

41 minutes ago, Hinckley said:

Remember the days when we used to attack the hosts? :laugh: We don't do that anymore. Hosts are quite open to respectful, constructive criticism. I think that's nice.

Some of them even deserved it. :laugh:

Oh! I should share a couple of PM moments!

So back in 2009, I made this to post in a game, I think. Maybe the discussion after a game. Whatever it was, the witch hat was carried over from Witch Hunt Mafia and the tuba is impossible to explain, yet here we are again...

hinck_witch_tuba.jpg

And then these gems.

On 4/21/2020 at 11:50 PM, Emmett Ware said:

You know I'd kill you if I could and I'm pretty sure you'd do the same for me. :laugh:

 

On 4/21/2020 at 11:53 PM, Vincent Denis said:

I knew I'd make a murder-suicide pact with you some day. :laugh:

How did we make it to the end? :wacko:

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5 minutes ago, Shadows said:

Was freeing Redbeard required, or was he just trying to distract you with something shiny, only to discover that it made you even crazier?

Yes.

5 minutes ago, Shadows said:

How did we make it to the end? :wacko:

More than that, how were we the only two who made it to the end? :rofl:

:blush::wub:

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8 hours ago, Medzomorak said:

*snip*

Hobby snobs. One can never escape them.

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8 hours ago, Medzomorak said:

 

I'm not going to reply to all the comments here, just a quick reply. We play the games here for fun, mostly, and we have our own meta. I don't think anyone on here fully understands the meta of these games. Some of the plays you describe as amateurish are that because they're people that can't devote full time to the game and/or people are just trying to have fun. In regard to the roles, every host does something a little bit different depending on their preferences.

I understand that you're not new to mafia games in general, and I appreciate that, but you are very new to mafia games on these forums. Mafia is played a little bit differently everywhere, and because of that you're considered new even if you've played a ton of games elsewhere.

I think something that would help all players - past, present, and future - would be making a mafia encyclopedia similar to mafia-wiki but on our own forums with our own descriptions and whatnot that can be stickied up at the top like our indexes. I'll see what I can try to come up with. 

6 hours ago, Shadows said:

Was freeing Redbeard required, or was he just trying to distract you with something shiny, only to discover that it made you even crazier?\

I was thinking: "hmm, Hinckley is playing the pirate and Redbeard has to escape. I know! I'll give him a ridiculous night action." 

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25 minutes ago, Trekkie99 said:

Hobby snobs. One can never escape them.

:laugh: 

Show me on the vulcan doll where Daniel touched you. 

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7 hours ago, Hinckley said:

More than that, how were we the only two who made it to the end? :rofl:

 

You guys really take "play nice with each other" to a whole new level. :roflmao:

1 hour ago, Bob said:

I think something that would help all players - past, present, and future - would be making a mafia encyclopedia similar to mafia-wiki but on our own forums with our own descriptions and whatnot that can be stickied up at the top like our indexes. I'll see what I can try to come up with. 

That should only take you about  a year of full time reading and writing up.  I wish you all the best of luck on your new endeavor! 

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8 hours ago, Darkdragon said:

That should only take you about a year of full time reading and writing up.  I wish you all the best of luck on your new endeavor! 

He could do it while anxiously waiting to post day conclusions for the impatient amongst us.

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Posted (edited)

I watched this latest game from the sidelines, having played the abortive Pirates II.  I hadn't planned to comment until read the Deadboard and this statement:

On 5/18/2020 at 6:34 PM, Darkdragon said:

I don't remember what game it was (limited storage area in brain :wink: ), but I do remember that the player who commented about it said something along the lines of "everyone with a mafia tag is mean". 

Not sure, but you may be recalling what I said back in during the previous game I played to Bob's Pirates duology.

First off, take this as constructive criticism not a personal attack.  I'll couch things as nicely as I can.

Bob had me slated to play Michael Lavoie (town watcher) in this game, even though I had not signed up.  He assumed I would flow from Pirates II to III.  When I was contacted to take on the role I lied; I told him I was too busy with work commitments.  (Sorry Bob - I didn't want to hurt your feelings or start you on a negative foot)  The truth however was that Pirates II showed me that the same issues still exist in the EB mafia community as when I had last played a year previous and they generate a negative play experience for players "outside the veteran circle".  Keep in mind I won in Pirates II (in fact I have never lost a mafia game yet on EB), so this is not sour grapes fueled.

Best way I can put it is this: Why when we are all supposed to hide our identities did certain vet players make no effort at all in concealing themselves?  Twice. This is not like Tariq and his account mix-up accidents, but deliberately ignoring the whole premise of anonymous games.  Heck, one player proceeded to alpha dog both games and survived to the finish both times - did everyone knowing from day 1 who they were factor in do them lasting where most others would have been lynched? I'd say yes, but that is my opinion.  Unfortunately my opinion is the crux of the negative play experience.  For new players, it looks like a clique.

 

Some of you believe this is simply new players being out of their depths and that they should go through "Mafia school" before they can play with you (Which is a pretty insulting thing to say if you sit back and think about it.  This game is not rocket science.  You could write the rules on the back of a napkin.  Funnily enough, the last mafia school run here voted out the only 'new' player on day 1 iirc).  I can guarantee that you will not retain everyone anyway, so you can't worry about those who leave in a huff.  I am also not suggesting you penalize people for not being sneaky enough, but if you approach this with the dismissive attitude I saw on the Deadboard rather than with a bit of introspection on how to make your community more welcome and fair to all, you will always be struggling to make up 16.

 

I'll probably see you in-game in a year or so when I hope things are improved.

Edited by Kwatchi

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57 minutes ago, Kwatchi said:

I'll probably see you in-game in a year or so when I hope things are improved

I don't know, I'm not seeing what you're seeing. I'm not a new veteran or an old veteran, something in between I guess. I can remember when I started playing and it was very confusing and often frustrating. I didn't like or understand the personal attacks when they happened. I still don't get or know half the "you did this before" things and I don't think it really matters at all. I don't get all the jokes, but that's ok.

You say the group needs to improve but improve what? You give no idea on what is wrong, just claim people are mean. Well, it's not some "clique" that's mean considering how mean "Daniel" was and he had never played here until pirates 2. So your argument doesn't hold water, imho.

Accusing people of being mean or exclusionary or anything else and saying they have to "be better" is ludicrously unhelpful. It's a game of trying to trip people up in lies or trying not to get tripped up, there will be sides and there will be accusations. I think that's why Heroica was the right move for some people that couldn't tolerate playing EB mafia games.

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1 hour ago, Kwatchi said:

Best way I can put it is this: Why when we are all supposed to hide our identities did certain vet players make no effort at all in concealing themselves?  Twice. This is not like Tariq and his account mix-up accidents, but deliberately ignoring the whole premise of anonymous games.  Heck, one player proceeded to alpha dog both games and survived to the finish both times - did everyone knowing from day 1 who they were factor in do them lasting where most others would have been lynched? I'd say yes, but that is my opinion.  Unfortunately my opinion is the crux of the negative play experience.  For new players, it looks like a clique.

Thank you for sharing your opinion. Like I told Josh, I'm interested to hear how I affect other players and will do my best to adjust based on what is said. I can't speak for everybody, so I'm just sharing my viewpoint of your opinion. As the supposed "alpha dog" you're referring to, I did try to conceal my actual identity. These two games were my first two anonymous games. Bob is the only host besides me to attempt it. Darkdragon will be doing it for her game, but this was my first opportunity. People told me I wouldn't be able to conceal my identity, that my personality would come through. They were right. We don't have a lot of practice at it. I tried to play Ethan Dunn, lovable n00b, in Pirates II. The Scum saw through it and tried to kill me on Night One. That was revealed through Night Actions and I gained the Town's trust and I think that's what got me to the end of the game. In Pirates III, I started playing more quietly, stating things simply. I wanted to pounce on mostlytechnic's first post but held back instead of reacting to the first ping, like I would normally. I waited a day and he got scummier and I placed a vote. Then Daniel went off for four days. Under that scrutiny, my personality came out again. In the case of me surviving this game to the end, it never made sense for the Town to lynch me...at least to them. I still can't believe I survived. But, that's the collective decision of the Town not lynching me that gets me to the end of the game, not me "alpha-dogging" the game. I think when you see a "clique" since you didn't give examples, I am making assumptions, you're talking about things like Trekkie and I claiming to each other and making jokes together. I like Trekkie's play style. He was making it fun during a part of the game where I was having absolutely no fun. That didn't mean I trusted him. That is separate from the game. You have to look at what the game is telling you about who is Scum and you have to lynch people, which by definition is an unkind thing to do. So when somebody gets lynched or disagreed with by people they see as a clique, it's not about relationships. I don't look at a game and say "Well, who do I not know and who are my buddies. All the n00bs must be Scum, let's vote them out."

The one thing that set Ethan apart from Hinckley was that I didn't blab my role to everyone and I didn't attempt to get out and lead the Town block. I told two people about my role and revealed my results through another player. It was only my second time playing investigator. I've been a Serial Killer twice, Bulletproof Survivor, a role that reflected everything back on people who targeted me, a guinea pig cult leader, a witch... but only twice an investigator and the first time I was killed the night I inherited the role.

I am curious who you played in Pirates II and what your specific experiences were. If you don't mind sharing, I think it will help demonstrate your point so that the players you're referring to have the opportunity to consider their behavior. I would really like to hear examples of how my play style is some sort of "alpha dog" play that uses my identity to survive and win and not actual experience and skill trying to figure the game out.

1 hour ago, Kwatchi said:

Some of you believe this is simply new players being out of their depths and that they should go through "Mafia school" before they can play with you (Which is a pretty insulting thing to say if you sit back and think about it.  This game is not rocket science.  You could write the rules on the back of a napkin.  Funnily enough, the last mafia school run here voted out the only 'new' player on day 1 iirc).  I can guarantee that you will not retain everyone anyway, so you can't worry about those who leave in a huff.  I am also not suggesting you penalize people for not being sneaky enough, but if you approach this with the dismissive attitude I saw on the Deadboard rather than with a bit of introspection on how to make your community more welcome and fair to all, you will always be struggling to make up 16.

Again, I think this is the double-edge sword of the anonymous game. How do we welcome n00bs if we don't know who they are? People pretend to be n00bs to conceal their "veteran" identity. And how do you welcome someone you're lynching. I tried to do that with @MKJoshA. (I'm tagging you here, not to provoke you into an argument. Just so you know you're being discussed) When we were lynching him, his reaction about making sure I was lynched when he flipped Town seemed so confident that I started to worry we had it wrong and I did feel bad about revealing what he asked me not to, that this was his first game. That was a mistake. But, I encouraged him to start fighting. In my opinion, we can't let that aspect of the game get in the way of answering suspicions. Telling someone you think they're lying when they know they're not is always going to feel intense and I imagine it feels even worse when you feel there's some clique against you. But, for Josh, he was blocked on the first night with no kill, he admitted to targeting Jean. The Town's responsibility is to test his claims and the game mechanism for doing so is lynching. Being the target of a mislynch feels bad no matter how long you've been playing and I think it is playing more often that gets you used to it. We have to question each other and when we're in a game like this, trying to find who is lying, we're going to get it wrong. I don't feel like I ever personally attacked Josh or treated him unfairly, although I accept that's the way he feels on the receiving end of my behavior. For the game as a whole, though, I voted for him several times before Day Four, but he didn't get lynched until there was other evidence against him. Yes, we were wrong, but it's the way other experienced players saw the evidence and chose to act on it. I wasn't suspecting Josh because I felt he was a n00b. I suspected him for the exact same reason I suspected mostlytechnic, and I didn't know he was mostlytechnic at the time. It's all about game play, none of that is personal and I'm definitely not trying to keep my "clique" together through the duration of the game.

I'm definitely defending myself here. :blush: I don't want to take anything away from the feelings that you and Josh are expressing and I will definitely take it into account as I continue to play other games. I don't think I'm flawless and I've certainly gotten feedback in the past that I'm too intense. Specific examples really help me to dial things back and I have a vested interest in not making people feel bad.

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Hi @Kwatchi! It's interesting you bring up 24 Mafia from last year, because when my character rode himself out of town on a rail in that game it was because the scum did a great job pushing my buttons, rather than targeting me for my experience or lack thereof.

16 minutes ago, Hinckley said:

I like Trekkie's play style.

He's right. I personally find Trekkie amusing but as I indicated on the deadboard I trust him about as far as I can throw him.

1 hour ago, Darkdragon said:

It's a game of trying to trip people up in lies or trying not to get tripped up, there will be sides and there will be accusations.

DD's right about this too. Mafia is necessarily adversarial but that doesn't mean we can't try to laugh along the way... and everyone feels victimized at one point or another. There's me for one, DD was disappointed that she got lynched so soon in this game, hell I think Bob once said something about only ever making it to the end of a game once.

And maybe I'm dumb but I've said before that I don't really notice or care who's who aside from a couple of notable exceptions, so I get to have fun either way. I do hope you stick around longer, at least for Darkdragon's game - the last game of hers I played was a riot, and it's sure to be fun again.

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2 hours ago, Darkdragon said:

I don't know, I'm not seeing what you're seeing.

Kwatchi is the third person now with a similar observation. MKJoshA was the first.

This mean thing again pops up in a totally unfair way. I was called brain damaged or something like that first and none of you had any problem with it. If you think it does not matter at all, you just defined what double standards are. You got an in-game taste of your own medicine as a response and you deserved it. To repeat again, I had nothing against Hinck personally. I PM'd all game with him in P2 so I had no reason to believe he just changed instantly towards me as well. For the record I did not just go instantly mad after P2. If Paul would have continued his way maybe you'd have seen the Daniel role as well if I'd have been in the mood to play it out like that. Many times when we were deep into arguing and yelling with Hinck, I was actually laughing hard and having a good time. That's what some of you are refering to, isn't it? Having good times. Still, I made some points I held valid nontheless about game quality.

I did not even know about the Deadboard. The things I read there are...sad. That was off-game talk with your real personas and not in-game playstyles. I am personally hugely disappointed with Bob too I do think he left his objectivity and impartiality behind with many remarks. I think you guys are practiced EB mafia players, but not being professional about it in many ways. I just made a huge post - patiently taking my time with it, really hoping to clear up my true or just labeled arrogant vibe - as a new gamer here after getting the EB experience.

All I got for a response is short, not interested, dismissive posts from jimmynick and trekkie. The same I got from their Jean and Aiden accounts many times which suggests they were just purely themselves. This is frightening. They both implied the same hobby-snob thing, which I found maybe... a bit off. Yes, some people take their hobbies seriously, that's why they're taking their time with it. Maybe you've not realized but you have tons of posts on a single LEGO-based forum. Another hobby, see? And Bob briefly just replied, that I'm only not used to EB meta. To be fair he mentioned the possibility of a pinned post about game descriptions and rulesets, which is a promising response. 

Not the small things on their own, but the whole context is highly worrying, this is what Kwatchi is talking about I think. A new guy playing a mean role you are not used to is being mentioned with a silly angle, but a horrible mason claim or horrible votes without town-arguments for example are not being voiced or analysed anywhere, while in a way this was the cause of many things said before, this was partly the reason I was pointing out my observations in this way. All the lazy playing attitude clearly showed that something like that will happen later on. I even mentioned the very basic way of playing masons (which is simply an unquestionable truth of mafia, not invented by me, there is ab-so-lu-te-ly zero argument to do the role otherwise) and a couple of days later somebody slips on that. Even as Town watching that made me feel not happy about it. And you are still not realizing: maybe this is what Daniel was refering to. Don't want to be personal with anyone who made them, mistakes are not crimes. Only things which are actually worth to talk about. But still pointing to EB meta after game is done instead, is just pure ignorance. No better words for it, but being lazy about these, while many important rules and information were held back from new players is not helpful for us to enjoy this environment.

And you can all see my first conclusion post at page 1, my real me. I am strictly saying these after reading that Deadboard.

This is why I feel you are - maybe unknowingly - creating mafia games for your closed clique. 

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Medzomorak,

Even your reply here is needlessly agressive and calling everyone ignorant. You constantly called all the  other players idiots and brain dead, nobody else was doing that This is exactly what we were talking about in the dead board and exactly why nobody wants to respond to you here. You do not listen, you do not take anyone else's thoughts into account unless they they agree with or validate your own. If I still want to call you Daniel, theres nothing that will stop me.

Do not tag me again. I will not reply to you. I don't need your negative and condescending responses darkening my doorstep.

3 hours ago, Kwatchi said:

Not sure, but you may be recalling what I said back in during the previous game I played to Bob's Pirates duology. 

Forgot to mention, nah it wasn't that. It was quite a number of years ago. Possible 2012 or 2013.

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8 hours ago, Medzomorak said:

Not the small things on their own, but the whole context is highly worrying, this is what Kwatchi is talking about I think. A new guy playing a mean role you are not used to is being mentioned with a silly angle, but a horrible mason claim or horrible votes without town-arguments for example are not being voiced or analysed anywhere, 

But the mason claim was analysed and it got sussed out by Trekkie. So I don’t understand what your argument is there with that example.

I feel like we’ve had vastly different experiences on our first games here. I was also lynched our on my first on my first game. But not because I was a newbie but because my play was suspicious.

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PoshJitteryKitfox-size_restricted.gif

What are the complaints here? Like with as few words as possible lol.

Players not better hiding their identities (whether purposely or not) gives them an unfair advantage? Maybe? If people think your scum then you'll probably get lynched.

Veterans expecting new players to play the "EB meta"way? See this is funny because I'd have it no other way. Screw me if I'm gonna get babied. Screw school and screw grades just throw me in with big kids and let's see whether or not they'll kill me. :head_back: I should go back and read my first game. I was like the ultimate noob.

 

8 hours ago, Medzomorak said:

I was called brain damaged or something like that first and none of you had any problem with it.

Can't imagine why. 

9 hours ago, Medzomorak said:

You got an in-game taste of your own medicine as a response and you deserved it.

Nobody else thinks anyone else here is a dum-dum. Meaning people won't care that the person they might think is a dum-dum called them a dum-dum. 

9 hours ago, Medzomorak said:

I was actually laughing hard and having a good time.

Yikes.

9 hours ago, Medzomorak said:

I just made a huge post - patiently taking my time with it,

All it was and still is now was mafia rules and how we're not following them. Your like the Sheliak.

9 hours ago, Medzomorak said:

For the record I did not just go instantly mad after P2.

Yes you were fine in P2. Meaning this has nothing to do with us and is entirely on you.

 

I'll leave you all with my best analogy for how mafia is played here.

 

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1 hour ago, Trekkie99 said:

I'll leave you all with my best analogy for how mafia is played here.

That is scarily accurate. :roflmao:

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7 hours ago, Trekkie99 said:

I'll leave you all with my best analogy for how mafia is played here.

6 hours ago, Darkdragon said:

That is scarily accurate. :roflmao:

I agree 100%. We're just kids hitting each other in the face in various ways and enjoying it.

As for the discussion we all are having, here are my thoughts:

1) I think I knew who Hinckley was right away, but that's just because I've played so many games with him or ones he's hosted that I just know his style. He's less "alpha-dog" and more, well, tuba. He's loud and speaks his mind. We saw that especially during the Vincent/Daniel arguments. Every single person on here that has played at least two games has a style that honestly rarely change. We know who Trekkie is when he plays. You can see it in older games with people who don't play anymore.

2) The anonymous games are anonymous (duh). I do think that there was a pretty good change up in people's styles for the most part this round. As for the deadboard, I really don't care if people keep up their "Act" or not. They're dead, not playing anymore. If they go back to normal personalities, I couldn't care less. I've always enjoyed the role-playing aspect of these games. I was unceremoniously lynched in my first game way back when when I had my character speak with a stutter. For me, role-playing is an important part, especially in anonymous games. i think as a whole we're getting better at RP in anonymous games.

3) Playing online is of course very different from playing in real life, and it varies from board to board. I haven't played any on MafiaScum but I've perused a little bit and they have a very particular play style. EB certainly has its own meta. This can be found across EB though; Heroica had a very specific setup and in-jokes. Brethren of the Brick Seas does, too. Same with Historica. And even the general subforums have specific ways of interacting.

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