Bob

Pirates Mafia III - Conclusion

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39 minutes ago, MKJoshA said:

Hello all. I was Reginald in Pirates II and died night 1. So I view this as my first real Mafia game. Some thoughts on the current meta:

People say they want a new player to be able to do well. But my experience as a new player makes this statement seem insincere. What you really want is to win, at any cost. And Mafia is a game so there's nothing wrong with that. You'd be happy for a new player to join, but heaven forbid they attempt to play their own way instead of the EB-meta way. Any action that doesn't fit the meta as long-playing players define it are seen as scummy immediately. There was so much "your argument doesn't fit the way I expect an EB player to argue, therefore you're scum."

I read a few games before attempting to play, Pirates I and Star Trek specifically. And the games seem to pretty much go this way each time. There's a lot of yelling and a lot of accusation of personal character. So I don't know why you think those were more fun than this. It's Mafia, it's all about the psychological warfare. 

What wasn't fun for me, and certainly turns me off from trying future games, is the meta-game as it stands. You all have been playing this for 10 years. There's a culture built up around EB Mafia now. *cough* *cough* Hinckley-culture *cough* *cough* That's not a bad thing, but it does mean new players have to conform to the meta if they want to join. I don't want to take time to do that, but that's just me. Take the observations for what their worth and I hope you all continue to have fun.

And thank you @Bob for being so patient with everyone for 3 games!

Hey, I take full responsibility for doing these things to you. I did not intend to cause you to have such a miserable time, nor did I intend any attack on personal character. In my estimation, I was doing a good job at avoiding going to a personal place when suspecting somebody. I don't see any reason to do that. Obviously I failed in many places at that on Day One, but I felt I was really careful after all of that. Not to mention, I think the only places I did it were in the situation that unfolded with one specific person, who was reading me wrong. The initial sarcasm thrown into all my initial suspicions on Day One was an attempt to imitate Pandora's trademark sarcasm. She's British so it's like a second language for her. If the Scum thought I was Pandora, they'd definitely try to kill me and I really wanted to waste their kill. I really take your feedback to heart and it kills me that you have this negative view of me. If you have the time, I would appreciate it if you could point out specific instances where you thought I was attacking your personal character. I honestly want to avoid doing this to people and I'll only know how if I can see what I did to make you feel that way.

But, anything that caused me to think you were Scum were the things you were doing, not the style you were posting in. I don't actively search for "EB-Mafia-Style" when I'm trying to figure out who the Scum are. I look for behaviors I find Scummy. It's easy to say that there is not "EB-Mafia-meta-culture" from inside of it, because I don't see it. But there is evidence that what you're referring to exists. Take for example that I think Kyle is Scum every time. That was another thing that got me to trust Andrew, Fred was Kyle. But, I always find poke-voting Scummy. I can't stand it. I'm generally alone in that opinion, but it drives me nuts. So, I pointed out that I found it Scummy. With Andrew, I was right (gloat!) but with you, I was wrong. Yes, there was a way that you communicated that made you less believable to me. In an anonymous game, I don't know if that's because you're new, you're someone I typically don't understand, or if you're Scum. Yes, you told me you were new, but you can see Tariq J said he was new and wasn't. So, there's a point where we can't put personality above suspicion, because we have to be playing the game and suspecting certain things. I also don't think those that what newer players see as "EB Mafia Vets" don't see ourselves as a group. Yes, we're used to playing with certain people and that's why using anonymous games has its positive elements. On the negative side, though, we don't know when we're pressing a new player who isn't use to the pressure cooker feeling that it produces. You told me you played in real life, where the Days and Nights only take a few minutes. We have a lot more time and a lot more roles here and it does get intense. I really do respond when people feel negative energy from me. I don't want to do that, so I honestly adjust based on the feedback. I used to be 10 times more intense than this and I've taken feedback from people over the years, so please know that I'll do my best to incorporate what you tell me about how I made you feel. I really want you to play again, although I understand if you don't. Don't do anything that isn't fun. But, you were active on the deadboard and followed the whole game. Maybe you were just hoping to see me get lynched, but if it was because you liked seeing the game unfold then please give it another shot. And feel free to PM me during a game if I'm rubbing you the wrong way.

One thing I do want to push back on, again because it's killing me, is you describing it as "Hinckley-culture." You're basing that on four games you've watched/participated in, the first of which—Pirates I—I didn't even play. It's hard to taken responsibility for single-handedly causing your displeasure with the game. I've tried to single-handedly control the World, and unfortunately I've realized that I do not. If I did, there wouldn't be a global pandemic the year I bought a public event business.

But, that aside, I truly am sorry for my part in your negative experience in this game and I hope you will follow up with the specifics so that I can approach the game in the most positive way I can in the future. Thanks! And I'm also truly sorry you got lynched when you were telling the truth and attempting to play your best game. I really meant to try to encourage you to keep fighting and give it everything you had, if you were Town—which you were. If it makes you feel any better, seeing you flip Town after the first four awful Days of this game, I was seriously considering never playing again.

It's nice to not have to come up with a song to play tuba to at the end of every post. :laugh:

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I find the whole "vets" comments over all, through the game an in the conclusion, very interesting because I remember when I first started playing here (2012 maybe?) and a game went this way and there was a lot of heat in the conclusion.  I don't remember what game it was (limited storage area in brain :wink: ), but I do remember that the player who commented about it said something along the lines of "everyone with a mafia tag is mean".  That's not a direct quote.  They did blame it on the mafia tag though. So I find it interesting that here we are with basically a whole new group that's seen as vets (not counting actual vets like Shadows, Hinckley, Dragonator) and now the next new group of players is saying the same thing.  To me that says that people might just be confused at how the game is played (as I was when I started) and/or upset at losing/getting killed/etc.  

I thought the last few game days were great with actual mafia play and not personal attacks or just "disagree to disagree" posts.

 

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Hi all!  Nice to poke my head out of the castle once in a while and see what's going on down here in the township. :dhappy:  Maybe I'll stick around for a while, working from home makes it a bit easier to tab out of work and into Mafia.  That said, I was incredibly busy throughout the time I was alive with work going on and was somewhat mortified by the amount of posting I had to try and catch up on each day.  So I struggled a bit, but nevertheless it was fun to come back.  Actually I had the most fun once I was dead!

I definitely don't have much of a recollection of the "EB meta" and didn't have any intention of posting in any particular way.  I had a bit of fun with my character, waited for something solid to dig my teeth into as I usually do, but sadly was taken out before there was much analysis to be done.  I saw no point in over-analysing posting styles in the first couple of days, there is certainly some things to learn there but not nearly enough to justify the amount of discussion that went on.  I scrolled through a lot of it by skim reading and I am sure most players did the same.

Bob you did a great job, thank you!  No worries about making me vanilla, it's good to change things up and challenge players to adapt.  I had never heard of role madness so the suggestion that I made the claim without being properly briefed by my scum team could have been true.  I doubt the scum team were that disorganised though, they did a good job.

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1 hour ago, Hinckley said:

Take for example that I think Kyle is Scum every time. That was another thing that got me to trust Andrew, Fred was Kyle.

You didn't even know Kyle was Fred, Karen.:tongue: You thought I was Kristel!

7 minutes ago, Dragonator said:

Hi all!  Nice to poke my head out of the castle once in a while and see what's going on down here in the township. :dhappy:  Maybe I'll stick around for a while, working from home makes it a bit easier to tab out of work and into Mafia.  That said, I was incredibly busy throughout the time I was alive with work going on and was somewhat mortified by the amount of posting I had to try and catch up on each day.  So I struggled a bit, but nevertheless it was fun to come back.  Actually I had the most fun once I was dead!

I definitely don't have much of a recollection of the "EB meta" and didn't have any intention of posting in any particular way.  I had a bit of fun with my character, waited for something solid to dig my teeth into as I usually do, but sadly was taken out before there was much analysis to be done.  I saw no point in over-analysing posting styles in the first couple of days, there is certainly some things to learn there but not nearly enough to justify the amount of discussion that went on.  I scrolled through a lot of it by skim reading and I am sure most players did the same.

I did a lot of skimming as well when there were massive posts, especially when there was personal attacks thrown in.

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GG! Great game Bob! Scum did very well.

5 hours ago, mostlytechnic said:

Governor - I like the idea of the role, but it's hard to use. How often would I think so strongly that someone is town (when the rest of the game is lynching them) to revive them? Pretty rare I'd think - so I'd save it till late and only really be able to use it if I was in the town block enough to know who to trust. 

It was imposible with town (but not completely town lol) orchestrating blocks and what not so quickly into the game. Should have just said screw it and asked Vincent or someone if they wanted to do some dumb crap like what I talked about. :head_back:

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3 hours ago, Hinckley said:

I think I'm the first Survivor in a very long time. I don't think we're used to that role here and it was a good twist. @Bob Why did you choose to add a Neutral to this version of the game? Also,...WHY ME???? :laugh:

You’d mentioned to me between games that it would be a good idea to switch things up. You even mentioned that you’d told me this in one of the days. A neutral is a great way to spice up the game. As for you being neutral, well, who better than the person who suggested a switch up? :laugh:

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As for a veterans mafia culture, I don’t know. I posted in the deadboard that I think there should be another mafia school hosted at one point in the near future. A long time ago you used to have to pass a mafia school to play mafia with the older kids. Since interest in EB mafia has waned, that’s obviously been gotten rid of.

I’ll say this much, though. I’ve been playing mafia on Eurobricks for over a decade now and I still make many mistakes, don’t understand all the metas, and oftentimes am bad at the game. I remember that YG49 is the reason we have the 24 hour vote delay. That players used to “come in late” in the morning if they used an action. That you needed to survive until the end to properly “win” a game, etc. The meta has evolved over the years and will continue to evolve. Playing mafia here is tough the first few games, but once you get the hang of it, it’s fun. Reading old games is good practice and it’s what I tell new players to do, rereading is only half the experience. Even if you had a bad game or a bad time, I’d suggest sticking with it. I remember being so salty in my first game because a ghost came back and revealed I was scum. And in my second game Hinckley organized my lynch because I wanted to cook fish tacos of something. You just have to roll with it and eventually you’ll get better, or in my case, you’ll stagnate and stay the same. :laugh:

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2 minutes ago, Bob said:

As for a veterans mafia culture, I don’t know. I posted in the deadboard that I think there should be another mafia school hosted at one point in the near future. A long time ago you used to have to pass a mafia school to play mafia with the older kids. Since interest in EB mafia has waned, that’s obviously been gotten rid of.

I’ll say this much, though. I’ve been playing mafia on Eurobricks for over a decade now and I still make many mistakes, don’t understand all the metas, and oftentimes am bad at the game. I remember that YG49 is the reason we have the 24 hour vote delay. That players used to “come in late” in the morning if they used an action. That you needed to survive until the end to properly “win” a game, etc. The meta has evolved over the years and will continue to evolve. Playing mafia here is tough the first few games, but once you get the hang of it, it’s fun. Reading old games is good practice and it’s what I tell new players to do, rereading is only half the experience. Even if you had a bad game or a bad time, I’d suggest sticking with it. I remember being so salty in my first game because a ghost came back and revealed I was scum. And in my second game Hinckley organized my lynch because I wanted to cook fish tacos of something. You just have to roll with it and eventually you’ll get better, or in my case, you’ll stagnate and stay the same. :laugh:

I'm in the same boat. I'm only now just starting to accept that "winning" is your side, well, winning. I still personally see myself winning if I survive to the end, but that's just me.

The games can be a blast to reread.

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You crazy kids and your mafia. :laugh:

It's been a long time... Last I saw some of you was when I hosted Aperture Academy with Darkdragon. Get off my lawn. Turret deploying. Preparing to dispense product. :devil:

A lot has changed since I stopped playing and honestly, to beat a dead horse, the amount of reliance on the meta is shocking and takes the joy out of playing. It's almost like speed-running a video game, sure, you get to the end quickly, but did you really get to see anything along the way? Was it fun, or just an exercise in mechanics? If you get to the point of relying on the wiki to tell you if specific elements fit this role or that, you leave out the mystery and discovery that comes from actually playing. I remember some of the meta from those distant days, I also remember some of it differently than it is now, and maybe than it was then. I may or may not have eventually made a point of frustrating people by intentionally misremembering the meta just because I dislike the concept and don't want to rely on it. Hopefully in the future, more hosts will see the joy in confusing games by intrpducing unexpected, but still fair, variations on roles, just to keep things fresh and surprising.

Another important part of the whole experience is in the roleplay, which there wasn't nearly enough of. I blame Hinck for that. I don't, really, if it hadn't been for his tuba, there would have been almost no roleplay at all. That tuba carried a lot of weight, and was a lot of weight to carry, and he managed to fwom it for all it was worth. And then some. :laugh:

Thanks, Bob, it was a great Bob experience, as it always is, once the early walls of text were reduced in volume. And thanks again to our loyal vigilante who valiantly fixed that problem. I wish I could remember your name. I wish I could remember any name in this game. :laugh:

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4 minutes ago, Shadows said:

Another important part of the whole experience is in the roleplay, which there wasn't nearly enough of. I blame Hinck for that. I don't, really, if it hadn't been for his tuba, there would have been almost no roleplay at all. That tuba carried a lot of weight, and was a lot of weight to carry, and he managed to fwom it for all it was worth. And then some. :laugh:

My favorite comment from the dead board is @Kristel saying she hoped I continued to play it. :laugh:

Quote

Remi said… (11 Apr 20, looking at version 1)

I hope Vincent doesn’t stop fwooming.

Shadows, what was your reaction to the conclusion? What percentage of you still thought I might be Scum? I admit I was slightly worried that you might've been Scum, but not anything like the feeling I got about Darkdragon after Star Trek Mafia 2's last Day concluded. :blush:

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13 minutes ago, Shadows said:

Another important part of the whole experience is in the roleplay, which there wasn't nearly enough of. I blame Hinck for that. I don't, really, if it hadn't been for his tuba, there would have been almost no roleplay at all. That tuba carried a lot of weight, and was a lot of weight to carry, and he managed to fwom it for all it was worth. And then some. :laugh:

Honestly my favorite part of the game and I was worried around Day 2 or 3 that he really would stop. I'm glad he kept doing it!  The games with more roleplay are so much fun!  I'm taking notes. :pir-wink:

That's how it was obvious that the first day's posts really robbed the game of a lot of fun - role playing came to a halt.

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8 minutes ago, Darkdragon said:

role playing came to a halt.

Yup. 

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16 minutes ago, Hinckley said:

Shadows, what was your reaction to the conclusion? What percentage of you still thought I might be Scum?

I was only worried that you were required to be a lone survivor who would kill me in the conclusion. I think Bob sensed that when he had you very specifically say you weren't going to kill me. :laugh:

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28 minutes ago, Shadows said:

I was only worried that you were required to be a lone survivor who would kill me in the conclusion. I think Bob sensed that when he had you very specifically say you weren't going to kill me. :laugh:

:laugh: I was similarly worried. I was like, "What am I doing with that gun?? Don't kill Shadows!!!"

@Bob Are you going to post my Night Actions? :laugh: I deleted the one where I wished on a star that I could be a real Townie and the Baluga Fairy came out of the ocean to grant my wish. I had to restart my computer and didn't feel like typing it out twice. :blush:

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andrew said… (14 May 20, looking at version 1)

And Vincent… yes, he should have sided with scum and ended this sooner. I think he feels that the town is “the good guys” and would rather side with town even if it means him personally losing.

@mostlytechnic Yeah, and you were actively trying to get me lynched for a few days there, so my view of "the good guys" was pretty clear. :tongue:

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I eagerly awaited this thread and then suddenly I worked a double today so... here I am. I crowed a bit in the deadboard that I nabbed Joshua, but on the other hand my scumdar was all off, going after Vincent and Aiden practically until the last minute... sorry DD. In terms of meta there are absolutely some ruts I fall into, including reading Trekkie as town and always suspecting Hinckley though he usually turns out to be mostly harmless. Perhaps I'm lazy or inattentive but I don't pick up much on how people usually behave so most of the players end up being pleasant surprises at the end. I was really hoping Andrew would turn out to be Kristel, especialy because of the way she bossed Thack Desteck, but mostlytechnic you did an awesome job wheedling your way into the town bloc. It very almost all came together for you.

At least from the outside I was really glad Bob switched things up this time. It was fun watching from the sidelines after I basically traded myself for DD. Massive thanks Bob for heroically running three games in a row - you deserve a bit of a rest now.

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Well being quiet the first couple days is always the risk I take because town or scum, I need that time to get my barrings. When I post in confusing massive pages of posts on the first 2 days i'm usually confused and often wrong. :laugh:  I still think it is a ridiculous and cheap reason to lynch someone but it is a perfectly fine way to investigate them.

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1 hour ago, Shadows said:

Hopefully in the future, more hosts will see the joy in confusing games by intrpducing unexpected, but still fair, variations on roles, just to keep things fresh and surprising.

Another important part of the whole experience is in the roleplay, which there wasn't nearly enough of. I blame Hinck for that. I don't, really, if it hadn't been for his tuba, there would have been almost no roleplay at all. That tuba carried a lot of weight, and was a lot of weight to carry, and he managed to fwom it for all it was worth. And then some. :laugh:

I agree that having more insanity would help. I've tried playing mafia other places and hated it - they were even more meta than anything here, and at least the place I played, had zero story/role play aspects, so it became just a logic debate. So the less predictable (especially doing things off of the mafiascum wiki standard) the better IMHO. Although a game that was stated up front to be completely basic (almost like a mafia school game) would be fun too, just in a different way. 

51 minutes ago, Darkdragon said:

Honestly my favorite part of the game and I was worried around Day 2 or 3 that he really would stop. I'm glad he kept doing it!  The games with more roleplay are so much fun!  I'm taking notes. :pir-wink:

I agree, and yet somehow, all the games I've done recently got me in trouble for my role playing. Even lynched in Star Trek Mafia :) I took a while off mafia and that's something that changed I think in the "EB meta" 

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1 minute ago, mostlytechnic said:

I agree, and yet somehow, all the games I've done recently got me in trouble for my role playing. Even lynched in Star Trek Mafia

To be fair...you are posting very scummy posts :roflmao: I was astounded you weren't lynched day 1 this time and that was because I thought your first post or two was scummy - before my brain could even remember who my team was.

I think that the roleplaying has really gone away and needs to come back. :dhappy:  I'm not good at roleplaying in mafia, but I can set something up for all you roleplayers to entertain me!

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2 minutes ago, Darkdragon said:

To be fair...you are posting very scummy posts :roflmao: I was astounded you weren't lynched day 1 this time and that was because I thought your first post or two was scummy - before my brain could even remember who my team was.

I think that the roleplaying has really gone away and needs to come back. :dhappy:  I'm not good at roleplaying in mafia, but I can set something up for all you roleplayers to entertain me!

Yeah, that's what I mean by things changing while I was gone for a while... we used to do lots of poke votes and lots of light-hearted accusations of people being scummy for silly things. I'm still trying to adjust :) 

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The first Pirates Mafia was a lot of fun because we were all pirates and that's easy and fun to RP as. :laugh:

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1 minute ago, mostlytechnic said:

Yeah, that's what I mean by things changing while I was gone for a while... we used to do lots of poke votes and lots of light-hearted accusations of people being scummy for silly things. I'm still trying to adjust :) 

Maybe it's EB Mafia that has to be fixed and not you :wink:

 

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1 hour ago, Hinckley said:

:laugh: I was similarly worried. I was like, "What am I doing with that gun?? Don't kill Shadows!!!"

@Bob Are you going to post my Night Actions? :laugh: I deleted the one where I wished on a star that I could be a real Townie and the Baluga Fairy came out of the ocean to grant my wish. I had to restart my computer and didn't feel like typing it out twice. :blush:

I’ll leave that to you. :laugh:

I’d like to majorly echo what Shadows said about a lack of roleplaying. In all my games I always include a rule in which I encourage RP. I even include personality traits and quirks in the bios for people to expand upon. For some reason nowadays, people seem to see RP as scummy and that’s one hundred percent not okay. I’m looking forward to hosting a mystery game, probably this summer, which is all about role play. Mystery games are radically different to mafia games and it’s a shame that they’ve disappeared. I do agree that people seem more focused in the destination rather than the journey. I’d like to see some more RP in mafia rather than trying to get to the end as quickly as possible. 

Anyway, I’m looking forward to the next game that’s upcoming. It’ll give me time to finish the sets, clues, characters, etc. and for the mystery. 

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2 hours ago, Shadows said:

Hopefully in the future, more hosts will see the joy in confusing games by intrpducing unexpected, but still fair, variations on roles, just to keep things fresh and surprising.

Oh, you'll definitely want to play my game after Darkdragon's then. I have the craziest idea. :blush:

And yet, nothing as broken as what I tried in that one game. Something about furries, I don't remember all of the details.

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22 minutes ago, Hinckley said:

Oh, you'll definitely want to play my game after Darkdragon's then. I have the craziest idea. :blush:

:dwacko:  I am intrigued.

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