Unexplored markets

[astral brick]

- Gbc: because Lego can't pretend it doesn't exist

- Marble Run: because Lego can't leave it to competitors

- Rube Goldberg Contraptions: because The Incredible Machine made of Lego parts would be a natural fit

There is a life beyond forklifts and cranes.

[Bartybum]

I don't think marble runs would be too successful, given that they'd lose out to cheaper, non-Lego alternatives. GBC I'm not sure about either, because you need a fairly large piece count to get people interested, which could be a significant blocker for a product that only does one thing. Rube Goldberg contraptions are (imo) a bit boring compared to the other two.

On the topic of unexplored markets though, Forma was something that I'd have liked to see do more kinetic sculptures. They're sorely needed in Lego's repertoire.

That being said, there might be something to be said about not wanting to over saturate customers with choice. If a new theme is launched, it could take sales away from other themes, depending on what it is. If you do that without increasing the size of your manufacturing power then you reduce the benefits that would otherwise come with mass production.

I'm absolutely positive that they've at least considered all of the above at some point. Marketability will make or break a potential product.

Edited May 10, 2020 by Bartybum

[Seasider]

Yes the Forma project was a tester for a kinetic sculpture. It didn’t sell that well, I bought one and I like it and think it’s a shame that it hasn’t continued. But you have to remember that companies are always after good returns and perhaps from its sales figures and feedback they just didn’t see it being a new line.

I think all those you’ve mentioned above would fall into the same category as I think they’d be too niche and only bought buy a limited audience. For the gbc stuff remember there are marble run toys being sold already (at least in the U.K.) and I bet TLG would look at the sale of those.

[Bartybum]

13 minutes ago, Seasider said:

It didn’t sell that well, I bought one and I like it and think it’s a shame that it hasn’t continued.

Personally I think they fell flat on their faces with Forma. Did they even consider that you need people to know your product exists to begin with? They didn't really market it beyond the audience that are already into Lego and crowdfunding, so I'm hardly surprised it flopped.

[Gumalca]

38 minutes ago, Bartybum said:

Personally I think they fell flat on their faces with Forma. Did they even consider that you need people to know your product exists to begin with? They didn't really market it beyond the audience that are already into Lego and crowdfunding, so I'm hardly surprised it flopped

Are you sure it flopped? All this talk about crowd funding, test run and the like are just marketing strategy. Lego does not need crowd funding to launch a product. Lego is very good at estimating the market value of their products on their own. They just felt they could make some extra cash with a limited product run and a lot of hype around it. And then later when asked again about their plans they just said, nah, wasn't a big success.

[Leewan]

1 hour ago, Seasider said:

Yes the Forma project was a tester for a kinetic sculpture. It didn’t sell that well, I bought one and I like it and think it’s a shame that it hasn’t continued. But you have to remember that companies are always after good returns and perhaps from its sales figures and feedback they just didn’t see it being a new line.

Maybe Forma didn't sell well, but Lego haven't given up on kinetic sculptures yet since they'll be releasing soon a brick-built version of Hedwig with a crank that makes the wings flap :

[amorti]

2 minutes ago, Leewan said:

Maybe Forma didn't sell well, but Lego haven't given up on kinetic sculptures yet since they'll be releasing soon a brick-built version of Hedwig with a crank that makes the wings flap :

Aah, yes. Definitely Lego: "if it doesn't sell, stick a license on it"

[howitzer]

GBC:s have several problems as an official set line. As already mentioned, they require a lot of parts, especially if you want a module line that is self-contained and can recycle the balls indefinitely while still being interesting to watch. Another problems is that they are fairly hard to build. I mean, surely as an official set some kind of a GBC module could be made into an easy enough build but expanding on that is hard, as designing a novel mechanisms are difficult and there's a lot of trial and error in making it work so in the end many kids would just get frustrated, probably even before getting their first own module to work. One problem is also the fact that once you have a GBC running, there's not much to do with it except watching it. No swoosh/wroom-factor, no manual functions to operate or switches to use like with most Technic sets, no imaginative scenarios of being a crane operator or supercar driver. So I think there's just not a big enough market for these sets, as they are not really suitable for kids and there's not enough AFOLs to justify a whole new expensive product line.

I agree that kinetic sculptures are something that TLG should explore more. Forma was a nice try but the models weren't that interesting in the end, and unlike Hedwig there, they didn't have the license factor to boost sales. I'm sure more interesting models can be made and I also believe that they would sell better, especially when licensed.

[Berthil]

I've done shows with my GBCs and people are always amazed but most real good GBCs are a step too far to build themselves next to the high brick count.
GBCs on LEGO Ideas don't get very far. May be because you have to see them in real life to appreciate them with all those moving parts.
The contraptions designed from existing sets are fairly successful though, people have the bricks at home and easily can have a go at a GBC.

[Bartybum]

1 hour ago, howitzer said:

I agree that kinetic sculptures are something that TLG should explore more. Forma was a nice try but the models weren't that interesting in the end, and unlike Hedwig there, they didn't have the license factor to boost sales. I'm sure more interesting models can be made and I also believe that they would sell better, especially when licensed.

I disagree that kinetic sculptures need to be licensed. Just look at JK Brickworks on YouTube

[Maaboo the Witch]

I'd be perfectly satisfied if TLG never explored these areas. I'm content with vehicles for the foreseeable future. My gripe is that that field has become too conventional and repetitive.

At least recently we've had 42097, which was a much-needed blast of fresh air (even though it was really just another crane) But we don't see enough of some vehicles. 42102's harvester was cool, but we really need a decent-sized set. Same goes for backhoes - it's been nearly a decade and nothing on that front (where the hell is our JCB?!), and scrapers and graders get nothing beside B-models.

I think that TLG just need to change up the core theme a bit, rather than reinventing the wheel with overly niche ideas.

[doug72]

 

23 minutes ago, Maaboo35 said:

I'd be perfectly satisfied if TLG never explored these areas. I'm content with vehicles for the foreseeable future. My gripe is that that field has become too conventional and repetitive.
I think that TLG just need to change up the core theme a bit, rather than reinventing the wheel with overly niche ideas

Agree too much emphasis on super / hyper cars be they big or small.

Edited May 10, 2020 by Doug72

[howitzer]

1 hour ago, Bartybum said:

I disagree that kinetic sculptures need to be licensed. Just look at JK Brickworks on YouTube

I'm aware that many great kinetic sculptures are made by AFOLs but licenses are a good way to give the official sets an extra kick of marketability. I'm not saying they must be licensed, just that license is a great way to increase sales, as I'm sure some non-AFOL HP fans will get the Hedwig set just to display it on their desks, even if they will never buy another Lego set. I like TLG:s own themes though, and I'm a bit saddened that there's no non-licensed themes today on space, pirates, castle, etc. But this is going somewhat off-topic.

22 minutes ago, Maaboo35 said:

I'd be perfectly satisfied if TLG never explored these areas. I'm content with vehicles for the foreseeable future. My gripe is that that field has become too conventional and repetitive.

At least recently we've had 42097, which was a much-needed blast of fresh air (even though it was really just another crane) But we don't see enough of some vehicles. 42102's harvester was cool, but we really need a decent-sized set. Same goes for backhoes - it's been nearly a decade and nothing on that front (where the hell is our JCB?!), and scrapers and graders get nothing beside B-models.

I think that TLG just need to change up the core theme a bit, rather than reinventing the wheel with overly niche ideas.

I agree, there are some machinery that for some reason haven't had a decent set or only had very few. Grader would make a great flagship set, as would a backhoe or a proper harvester (I think there's been only one excepting the B-model of 8862).

--

One reason Technic licenses have increased so much lately may be the fact that many vehicles like cars and motorcycles have been produced since the beginning of the Technic line and as for increasing functions, there's only so much you can do with a car. Licensing is one way to keep them interesting for the market, so while Dom's Charger isn't bringing anything new functions-wise, it has a license which immediately makes it stand out compared to any generic car TLG might produce.

Something I'd like to see is some sort of division of functional sets and good-looking sets: functional sets would of course focus on functions and continue the core tradition of Technic while good-looking sets would be a sort of resurrection of the old Model Team theme where realistic looks is the main goal while still having some simple functions like steering as opposed to Creator Expert vehicles which don't have those, maybe even combining with Creator Expert vehicle line to make stuff that looks good, replicates faithfully the real thing and is still functional enough to be playable. Then there's of course UCS cars which I think should continue representing the pinnacle of Technic technology, while still having a strong focus on aesthetics.

[astral brick]

15 hours ago, Bartybum said:

On the topic of unexplored markets though, Forma was something that I'd have liked to see do more kinetic sculptures. They're sorely needed in Lego's repertoire.

Considering the upcoming Harry Potter sets, I think Lego finally understood it.

13 hours ago, howitzer said:

One problem is also the fact that once you have a GBC running, there's not much to do with it except watching it. No swoosh/wroom-factor, no manual functions to operate or switches to use like with most Technic sets, no imaginative scenarios of being a crane operator or supercar driver.

True, this could be an issue.

[astral brick]

13 hours ago, Berthil said:

I've done shows with my GBCs and people are always amazed but most real good GBCs are a step too far to build themselves next to the high brick count.

I wasn't thinking of intricated models like yours or Akiyuki's ones but something more accessible in term of costs, such as independent small modules/loops that can connect to each other in order to create a bigger loop or a longer line. These projects exist already.

13 hours ago, Berthil said:

GBCs on LEGO Ideas don't get very far.

I know, this is a shame.

13 hours ago, Berthil said:

...The contraptions designed from existing sets are fairly successful though, people have the bricks at home and easily can have a go at a GBC.

Exactly, I was tempted to buy an old Technic set only to build the related gbc. I think that give it a go it is the key here, offering something new to customers, trying to open a new market. In fact, gbc are not that niche, considering that every relevant Lego event has the inherent section.

[msk6003]

2 hours ago, astral brick said:

considering that every relevant Lego event has the inherent section.

I don't want tackle but every event did in korea don't have any GBC.

Edited May 11, 2020 by msk6003

[Bartybum]

3 hours ago, astral brick said:

such as independent small modules/loops that can connect to each other in order to create a bigger loop or a longer line. These projects exist already.

They’re a bit boring though aren’t they?

[agrof]

3 hours ago, Bartybum said:

They’re a bit boring though aren’t they?

Just like cars. Or excavators. Or trucks. Or airplanes. Or kinetic sculptures. Or any other hobby. Make your selection according to your non-interest.

GBCs are fun and packed with nice technical solutions, but as Ideas proved many times - most people don't find them appealing, so TLG will not push it. Luckily enough, we have companies, like https://pv-productions.com/ who turns common sets into GBC. 

Let all the flowers bloom.

[howitzer]

Yeah, Ideas, if anything, is very telling about GBC's as a prospective market. Many great sets there get the required 10k votes and are still turned down by TLG, while GBCs in general don't even get anywhere near the required number of votes. Also no Technic model has ever been featured in Ideas, and if and when Technic set will be chosen for production, I'm guessing it'll be some nice licensed car or truck - but not a GBC. I get that GBCs have a certain appeal for some people, myself included, but that appeal doesn't seem to be very widely shared, it's a niche market at best.

[Bartybum]

1 hour ago, agrof said:

GBCs are fun and packed with nice technical solutions,

That’s the thing though. Unless you’re spending big money on lots of complicated solutions then they aren’t.

[agrof]

17 minutes ago, Bartybum said:

That’s the thing though. Unless you’re spending big money on lots of complicated solutions then they aren’t.

This is not correct, might be a reason for this perception, that usually there are indeed very big GBC MOCs seen out there. But interesting mechanism can be done in compact form too. 

It is like, you can have the same functions in a 400 pcs and a 1500 pcs car build, just in different scale. Perfect examples are many entries in TC18 vs 42096.

The truth is though: usually people like something much more if it is BIG. It is like coded in our genetics... f. e.: big means more food. 

[Bartybum]

1 hour ago, agrof said:

But interesting mechanism can be done in compact form too.

I wouldn't mind seeing some examples

[agrof]

https://pv-productions.com/product/lego-gbc-24-42060-building-instructions/

https://pv-productions.com/product/gbc-32-road-lift-42060-building-instructions/

https://pv-productions.com/product/gbc-29-heavy-duty-pump-42063-building-instructions/

https://pv-productions.com/product/lego-gbc-17-wing-lift-module-42052-building-instructions/  (This does not utilize the whole set, and great kinematics are used)

Only the imagination is the limit, not really the part count.

Edited May 11, 2020 by agrof

[Ankoku]

I am with @Berthil on this one. People love things like the Ball Factory, but they don't love the price. Kids and adults alike love the circuits at events, but that never really translates into interest outside of events.

I would love to see the sales figures for the Akiyuki instructions. That said, most LEGO buyers don't know about BrickLink or buying pieces directly from LEGO, so they just look at GBCs and instructions and think: I don't have the pieces to make that.

GBC has never really garnered any love on IDEAs, probably partially because it doesn't have a big enough fan bases to get the ball rolling in the first place, let alone get it over the hill. The most supported, expired one on there with GBC in the title got 762 votes.

We still haven't had any love from LEGO in regards to being able to get the original decorated soccer and basket balls.

As for good small mechanisms, I like things like this:

Or this:

Then there is this guy, who basically miniaturized two of Akiyuki modules into nice looking sets:

And this:

If I was to vote on anything, it would be those.

They work nicely, they are small and the amount of pieces isn't that bad. It probably still wouldn't be at a viable price point.

That said, it would be nice as an office table ornament.

In a way, I like GBC as it has more usability than many official sets. Most of my cranes, cars, trucks etc. which I have bought over the years, live in storage boxes.

With GBC, at least I can take them out and show them to visitors. They are always fascinated.

That said, it is never a competition. They appeal to a small set of people in terms of building them and have a strong appreciation at events and I hope they inspire kids to get into engineering.

He actually added this to LEGO Ideas back in 2014. It got over 8000+ votes. Not sure if it made the 10,000 or not, as the page is no longer there.

It is GBC, Rube Goldberg Contraptions and Marble Run all rolled into one. Still didn't make it.

[astral brick]

On 5/17/2020 at 2:59 PM, Ankoku said:

We still haven't had any love from LEGO in regards to being able to get the original decorated soccer and basket balls.

Thus leaving the field open to competitors, not a smart move.

On 5/17/2020 at 2:59 PM, Ankoku said:

Then there is this guy, who basically miniaturized two of Akiyuki modules into nice looking sets:

I love basketball gbc too, especially this model

Unfortunately the designer doesn't sell the instructions anymore.

On 5/17/2020 at 2:59 PM, Ankoku said:

He actually added this to LEGO Ideas back in 2014. It got over 8000+ votes. Not sure if it made the 10,000 or not, as the page is no longer there.

It is GBC, Rube Goldberg Contraptions and Marble Run all rolled into one. Still didn't make it.

The embodiment of what I was thinking of when I started this thread, all at once.