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Agreed. That rear suspension is great. Well done. I agree with @agrof, can you replace the t#1 connectors with something else. How about 2 1x4 thin liftarms and replace the rubber connector with a 1x2 liftarm?

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Just now, Thirdwigg said:

replace the rubber connector with a 1x2 liftarm

The main levers go in an arc, so to compensate for the suspension moves on the sides, a rubber part is used. I can say that this is an excellent and interesting solution. About connectors #1, they are great to keep in such a bundle.

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49 minutes ago, Thirdwigg said:

Agreed. That rear suspension is great.

43 minutes ago, osterum said:

I can say that this is an excellent and interesting solution.

Thanks for the compliments, much appreciated!

 

50 minutes ago, Thirdwigg said:

How about 2 1x4 thin liftarms and replace the rubber connector with a 1x2 liftarm?

As just @osterum wrote rubber piece allows sideways move of the arm. It does work with simple 1x2 liftarm, thought. But I don't want to use it, because in that case suspension will work on tolerances and play between parts.

52 minutes ago, Thirdwigg said:

I agree with @agrof, can you replace the t#1 connectors with something else.

Well, I did try this solution:
eGZHjXW81IU.jpg
And it does work normally despite the length isn't exactly 4 studs:
ebb6lNGHYYM.jpg

I need to think it out to choose. Still, why do #1 connectors confuse you, @agrof and @Thirdwigg:classic: The connection strength seems more than enough for this application. Maybe there are some aesthetic reason? 

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@Limga it is only about rigidity and robustness. Though #1 connectors indeed can work and look better, but it would bug me always, that I left one unlocked constraint in such an essential and stressed feature. I find myself usually in the challenge to solve such possible issues. Part of my mind game. :classic:

The proposal of @I_Igor is also a possibility, good find. 

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2 hours ago, Limga said:

ecTD26syxSQ.jpg

Wow, what a gorgeous chassis! I really like the suspension and the motor - marvelous. I hope you can find a good bodywork that represents the technical core.  :thumbup:

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Very interesting rear suspension. You can switch the spring and the wheel mount to get less travel on the wheel (the wheel mount is now closer to the pivot point of the trailing arms then the wheel. If you put the wheel mount closer to the pivot point it will travel less). You now have 1.5 stud travel, by switching it will reduce to 0.67 stud travel.

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Just now, Jeroen Ottens said:

Very interesting rear suspension. You can switch the spring and the wheel mount to get less travel on the wheel (the wheel mount is now closer to the pivot point of the trailing arms then the wheel. If you put the wheel mount closer to the pivot point it will travel less). You now have 1.5 stud travel, by switching it will reduce to 0.67 stud travel.

That’s a real headshot. Guys @Limga and @Jeroen Ottens u make me crazy with this technic stuff. Very cool conversation.

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2 hours ago, Limga said:

I need to think it out to choose. Still, why do #1 connectors confuse you, @agrof and @Thirdwigg:classic: The connection strength seems more than enough for this application. Maybe there are some aesthetic reason? 

I don't like connectors in my suspension as the one thing that bothers me more than anything is having a drive axle pull out of the differential. So I like all the parts of a suspension to be laterally fixed. I suspect this design will not have that happen often, but due to the connectors, the rubber mount, and the steering hubs, it might.

I do like the solution you devised with the two perpendicular connectors. That is more ridged, and the longer swing-arm length may reduce the need for the rubber connectors. Does the suspension still work if you use a fixed +O 1x2 liftarm with the axle side mounted fixed to the engine?

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What about using this part? It is exactly 4-studs long.

 11455.png

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I would use that too if the link was mounted horizontal in the non-compressed state. So move the chassis mounting point down a stud, and use that part.

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On 4/14/2020 at 8:48 AM, Limga said:

I am interested, can you show your solution?

Updating my topic in a few minutes.  By the way my solution is insanely bulky when compared to yours.  I'm a fan of less pieces, nice work.

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Thank you all for the responses and suggestions! I will answer in order :classic:. It is a pleasure to share experience and thought with all of you! ( @Jim, please, let me know if overquoting or such long posts are not acceptable here, I did not find the rule regarding it).

And I also want to apologise if I don't accept your suggestions or solutions. Please don't be offended and think of me as arrogant. It is not because I think that I know what is best (surely not true), but because I would like to build MOC in a way that my heart will find comfortable. And I try to do my best explaining why I use this solution and why I don't use the other.  Thank you for understanding! :classic:

On 4/14/2020 at 6:58 PM, I_Igor said:

Why don't you use this part?

The reason I don't use this part is because of the ball socket that will fill not fit in the chassis and interior. Besides, when used with CV-joints there is always a probability of 3L axes to slip out of 12-tooth gear in differential. So, I used following "frame" in both rear and front axle:
XdXoZP3iIFs.jpg
While it is not perfectly rigid and strong it provides additional friction lock to 3L axle and doesn't allow it to slip out. And it is still rigid enough not to break while playing with the chassis.
However, I think, for the motorised version I will use this 92910 part and maybe I will cheat with some papers in LBG-part of CV-joint to make sure axle won't slip out.

On 4/14/2020 at 7:13 PM, agrof said:

@Limga it is only about rigidity and robustness. Though #1 connectors indeed can work and look better, but it would bug me always, that I left one unlocked constraint in such an essential and stressed feature. I find myself usually in the challenge to solve such possible issues. Part of my mind game.

On 4/14/2020 at 8:42 PM, Thirdwigg said:

I don't like connectors in my suspension as the one thing that bothers me more than anything is having a drive axle pull out of the differential. So I like all the parts of a suspension to be laterally fixed. I suspect this design will not have that happen often, but due to the connectors, the rubber mount, and the steering hubs, it might.

Thank you for explanation! I love to hear about building principles of the others.

On 4/14/2020 at 8:42 PM, Thirdwigg said:

I do like the solution you devised with the two perpendicular connectors. That is more ridged, and the longer swing-arm length may reduce the need for the rubber connectors. Does the suspension still work if you use a fixed +O 1x2 liftarm with the axle side mounted fixed to the engine?

I tried it and it does work. But I would like to keep rubber connectors, because it that way, IMHO, suspension is closer to real one and doesn't rely on play between parts.

On 4/14/2020 at 10:51 PM, zux said:

What about using this part? It is exactly 4-studs long.

That is a good idea, and I was able to use this part, thanks a lot! I do, however, needed to rebuild rear axle a little, but I like the result. I will show photos in the next post. 

On 4/14/2020 at 11:53 PM, Thirdwigg said:

I would use that too if the link was mounted horizontal in the non-compressed state. So move the chassis mounting point down a stud, and use that part.

Horizontal mount is not possible due to some latest chassis improvements. Moreover, it will still require a rubber connector, because in non-compressed state due to inclined arms the mounting points on chassis and suspension are not inlined. 

On 4/14/2020 at 8:31 PM, Jeroen Ottens said:

Very interesting rear suspension. You can switch the spring and the wheel mount to get less travel on the wheel (the wheel mount is now closer to the pivot point of the trailing arms then the wheel. If you put the wheel mount closer to the pivot point it will travel less). You now have 1.5 stud travel, by switching it will reduce to 0.67 stud travel.

Thank you for the compliment! Luckily, my calculations do match with yours:) I do know how the lever works, but thanks for the explanation, may be useful to others who read the thread. 
Actually, I did try a lot of combinations of angles and mounts and I tried the solution you are suggesting since. It was very attractive to make more room for the backseats and reduce the suspension travel. But I discarded it for the reason of very and very stiff suspension it that case. Reducing the travel from 1.5 stud to 0.67 (2/3) stud makes suspension stiffer by 2.25 times which makes it almost unusable. I prefer more softer suspension so I decided to keep the way it is.

On 4/16/2020 at 3:05 AM, BusterHaus said:

Updating my topic in a few minutes.  By the way my solution is insanely bulky when compared to yours.  I'm a fan of less pieces, nice work.

I love the way you managed to do the steering, definitely less bulkier solution that I used, thanks for sharing! You have inspired me to an idea of implementing dual drivetrain similar to yours in my front suspension setup. If you are interested, I will show you the solution.
 

On 4/14/2020 at 7:47 PM, MegaRoi said:

Wow, what a gorgeous chassis! I really like the suspension and the motor - marvelous. I hope you can find a good bodywork that represents the technical core.  :thumbup:

Thanks a lot!
For the bodywork I have already chosen (as my heart fully belongs to classic Porsches) Porsche 911/964 in a white color. 
QAZiu1StwIg.jpg

I do hope that with help from the community I will be able to catch the iconic lines. 

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The white is the most elegant color for (now) classic Porsche like that from early 1990s.

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So, some progress is up here!
Please, let me know if longposts are hard to read. I love to go deep in the descriptions, reasons and explanations but I also would like to make the topic more comfortable to read if it is desired by audience.
The rear axle and engine mount

I managed to implement part @zux suggested as transversal arm and to make rear axle and engine mount less complex and more robust. But I still kept the rubber connectors, but in other way:

jj2iNaECs44.jpg

b_Fc7WJYz5M.jpg

I switched the "frame" to the one described earlier and also switched U-joint to CV-joints as wheels tended to slip from U-joints while playing. Unfortunately, this solution is bending slightly and I need to think of it some more. To increase robustness of engine mount I used this suspension arm which shape is nearly perfect for this setup. Also, it is more thinner than a regular beam so suspension does have some room to work. I am very satisfied with this solution.
rw5MvJ3aicA.jpg

I also reworked engine mount and used Pythagorean triangle to support the far end of the engine. I had to remove halfpins from 2L beams to fit the 6L halfbeams, but now the pistons (2L red axles) can be pushed accidentally into 2L beams and stuck the engine. I guess, I will replace 2L beams with perpendicular connector. 
oF59Cq8KH5g.jpg


The chassis

I married front and rear axle and decided to put drivetrain one stud higher the chassis frame. This made pretty convenient ground clearance with rear slightly more higher than the front. Unfortunately, center differential just eats a lof of inner space and makes even seats building very challenging for me.
1XN7ztCJdU4.jpg

JAxv4P_ZptY.jpg

JVxdKmXV3jk.jpg

Unexpectedly, chassis is robust enough not to bend a lot while holding it and the end of the engine. I guess is it due to support under rear axle.

JoyWtm2Azf8.jpg

I think that is all for the chassis and I will rework it in case bodywork will require it.

The steering wheel and HOG

That was a pretty tricky part for me to accomplish. I changed several front axle mounts to make steering wheel and HOG work. The steering wheel works throught twisted rubber band so it turns in the same directions as wheel. Pretty large wedge wheel provides quite a lot of steering wheel travel for the sake of realism :classic: 
I decided to put a HOG wheel under the windshield since providing the axle to back or to roof would compromise interior and interior is already suffering a lot. I don't think I will be able to make it detachable as I intented, though. Steering wheel mounting is temporaly and I will change it when I will work on interior details.
Tk9KKctHF4g.jpg

a9lVj66nXZU.jpg

B5TZb7zYXWI.jpg

 

The video showcasing transmission, suspension and steering at work: 

Thank you all for your attention and comments! 

Edited by Limga
Mistakes

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No problem with your posts! :thumbup:

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I like this solution for rear axle much better, but I'm not a fan of rubber bands... but it is a freedom of choice

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5 hours ago, I_Igor said:

The white is the most elegant color for (now) classic Porsche like that from early 1990s.

I think so too. I would like to build in other colors as well, after contest is ended. I hope someday lime wheel arches will be released.

4 hours ago, Jim said:

No problem with your posts! :thumbup:

Good to hear, my inner graphomaniac is happy :grin:

3 hours ago, I_Igor said:

I like this solution for rear axle much better, but I'm not a fan of rubber bands... but it is a freedom of choice

Thanks! Rubber bands are the pain in a neck for me. They do provide a working solution, but I feel that it is "unclear" solution. As for the engine transmission there are some ways to replace the rubber band with gears, but it would make engine more bulky. I need to think of it.
The steering is very tricky. I don't know how to solve it using two gears and keep the inclined steering wheel and several turns. Moreover gears would increase complexity and make interior bulky. Always a compromise :sceptic:
As for now I will keep it the way it is and I would be grateful for suggestions if there is any idea of how to solve it with gears.
By the way, rubber bands are used to transfer drive in officials sets: 42074 and new Ducati 42107. While it is suitable in the yacht, I was surprised to see it in motorcycle transmission. I guess this occasion might give me some indulgence to use rubber bands  :sweet: But I definitely would prefer gear based solution!

Edited by Limga
spelling

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My suggestion for front axle is McPherson like and I'll probably made just rear wheel driven Porsche without transmission. But that is only my opinion. My project is also white but I need few parts to finish doors, and curvy rear hood is another story...

Looking forward to see IMHO interpretation of best 911 ever.

Regards ?

 

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I always wonder how is it possible to put so many technic stuff in such small volume. Well if compare to my model, my technic part of build is like in 16 century. And this from 22. 

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38 minutes ago, Shtykoff said:

I always wonder how is it possible to put so many technic stuff in such small volume. Well if compare to my model, my technic part of build is like in 16 century. And this from 22. 

But sometimes beauty is in simplicity :wink: and playability is also important factor...

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2 hours ago, I_Igor said:

My suggestion for front axle is McPherson like and I'll probably made just rear wheel driven Porsche without transmission. But that is only my opinion. My project is also white but I need few parts to finish doors, and curvy rear hood is another story...

Looking forward to see IMHO interpretation of best 911 ever.

Regards ?

 

Whoa, McPherson is something I would like to implement. But I don't have any McPherson idea right now that will be more compact than current suspension. It will require quite a lot reinforcement (and even now front wheels are wobbly a bit) and the whole point of McPherson being compact suspension is lost. But I don't give up and hope to make McPherson suspension in that scale one day.

Making it AWD while keeping sufficient interior and not ugly exterior is the whole point of this entry for me. Nevertheless, thank you for suggestions! 
I do looking forward to see results of your project, too and I too need some parts. But I heavily doubt that I get my order before the contest is ended due to corona.
 

1 hour ago, Shtykoff said:

I always wonder how is it possible to put so many technic stuff in such small volume. Well if compare to my model, my technic part of build is like in 16 century. And this from 22. 

Hey, I think you are overpraising my build over yours. I agree with @I_Igor, beauty is in simplicity sometime. 

Edited by Limga

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Some updates for today. Unfortunately, I had some troubles organising myself to get working on the model. Still, I hope to finish the model until deadline:)

Interior (and new wheels).

J0Rofsk0G5c.jpg

So, I decided to use Reddish Brown as main color for interior and have succesfully purchased Dark Red rims from set 10258. As I mentioned before I chose white as the main exterior color and I hope this color combination will work well.
I have ordered some Dark Red Technic parts to use in exterior and I hope I will get them in time.

_xlCrtm5_1Y.jpg

Front seats were quite tricky to build and they are not somewhat realistic to real ones that are installed in Porsche. Also, I reworked steering wheel mount and used rubber wrapped around a pin to get steering wheel working. Not the clearest solution, but the one with half-bush makes a lot of friction between rubber band and #3 connector.

A7hoKajXE_k.jpg

The backseats, thought, seem to be more realistic in terms of comfort and embedded driveline (photo of real one is under spoiler)

Spoiler

4nfoTFXMeK4.jpg

And two more pictures:

9GmsXRseKio.jpg

a-G1PJyarhQ.jpg

I tried white arches on (as you can see on the pictures) and dreadful thought came inside my head: I will need to build bodywork in 14 studs. This is going to be one hell of a challenge:)

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