Amicus1

4DBrix goes DIY

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13 hours ago, Toastie said:

....

And that's it.

Regards
Thorsten

P.S.: If find it disheartening that 4DBrix needed to take the exit route.      

     

So true, from line 1 to the last... It's a pity, but it seems that's how the world works nowadays.

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3 hours ago, Capparezza said:

It's a pity, but it seems that's how the world works nowadays.

It's a pity because no competition means higher prices.

4D Brix was a profit-oriented company, not a community service. Same is TrixBrix. Many companies start as a community project, but once they start selling stuff, it must be accepted that there will be competition. Many of these companies are founded by brilliant technicians. They focus entirely on the technical stuff and neglect marketing, distribution, ... BrickTracks is going the same route: Almost perfect products, but reasonably priced shipping/distribution to any other countries than US is not solved. 

Edited by legotownlinz

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@legotownlinz Yeah, at the moment I'm waiting for FX Track System to hit the high street. As they cater to the needs of a 9V fan like me, I will swallow the bitter pill no matter how expensive it will be. It's not that I would have a choice, as they have no competition for 9V metal tracks :laugh:. In my opinion their upcoming products will be worth it, if they stick to their intended plans and quality.

However, I could go the cheap route and by non-metal track and augment it with copper tape.... :wink:

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On 4/11/2020 at 11:03 AM, BrickMusher said:

The development process is the real time-eater, so doing a short-cut by copying brings you indeed some advantages over the original inventor.

Okay
Now explain how Trixbrix released their products within a week after 4D bricks.
They could impossible allready have bought an example from 4D and received it.
Did they have a mole? Or hacked a computer?
 

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1 hour ago, legotownlinz said:

They focus entirely on the technical stuff and neglect marketing, distribution

That is true. For me personally, there is a bit more to it though. Your reasoning is entirely 100% correct for internationally operating companies. What is missing though in the small company startup-type business (profit oriented that is) is the chance of reasonable securing IP. Which they can't. So that adds something nasty to the nice and shiny words of competition, marketing, product distribution, and all the business buzz word you can name: Copy and paste.

The power players in Germany had (that is before Covid-19 hut hard) a saying about manufacturing in e.g. China: "With such high development costs we have to make profit somewhere, and China, India, and some other countries allow us to do so". Development costs, coming-up with new ideas, etc. etc. is - in the profit making world - worth a lot of money. See TLG: We buy the super expensive stuff from them. Reading their papers on why it is so expensive points into that direction as well. But the big difference is: They are securing these expensive parts of the profit making process with IP all over the place. Plus: Sue as they can, see the BL case. Small companies can't do that. So somebody has to pay the development costs of the brilliant ideas of the engineers ... which can be brought considerably down by skipping that process and go directly to manufacturing.

Oh, they want to get a lot of manufacturing facilities back to Germany (guess what? We'll pay for it ...)

It's a tough world.

Best
Thorsten

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9 minutes ago, JaBaCaDaBra said:

Okay
Now explain how Trixbrix released their products within a week after 4D bricks.
They could impossible allready have bought an example from 4D and received it.
Did they have a mole? Or hacked a computer?
 

Pictures alone would be sufficient, but often it's the simple idea itself that holds the real innovation.

Regardless, we could argue till we're blue in the face whether they copied or not, but perception is reality, and Tom perceives that he was ripped off and therefore has no further motivation to continue.  And while we can continue to discuss the merits and pitfalls of unfettered competition, if we do not show any loyalty or at least some respect to the innovators, then there is nothing stopping the Lepins of the world from stealing it all, molding it, and selling it for $1. 

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Just now, coaster said:

it's the simple idea itself that holds the real innovation

I fully agree with this but copying is off all times and all countries.
Even TLG does it, f.a. they copied 35480 from Lepin.
 

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1 minute ago, coaster said:

Pictures alone would be sufficient, but often it's the simple idea itself that holds the real innovation.

Regardless, we could argue till we're blue in the face whether they copied or not, but perception is reality, and Tom perceives that he was ripped off and therefore has no further motivation to continue.  And while we can continue to discuss the merits and pitfalls of unfettered competition, if we do not show any loyalty or at least some respect to the innovators, then there is nothing stopping the Lepins of the world from stealing it all, molding it, and selling it for $1. 

I'm normally one to sit on the sidelines with things like this, but I fear that we're in danger of leaving reason behind and allowing this discussion to be ruled by emotion.

It does pain me that another player is dropping out of the marketplace, but if there was any problems with perception it is perhaps that the "community" as represented here in some way owed one particular retailer/producer more loyalty (and therefore custom) than another. But this is not going to happen where that retailer/producer sells on the open market because there will always be competition, price considerations and so on that are going to inform people's buying decisions. Unless 4DBrix was going to employ some other business model his products would always be vulnerable to competition, and I don't see how this is anything other than a manifestation of the phenomenon.

I also resist this notion that 4DBrix are the only ones innovating, as even a cursory glance at the TrixBrix range will show. These are not mere copy and paste pirates, but they are also turning out unique products not available elsewhere, such as their narrow gauge track options. Whether or not TrixBrix deliberately and knowingly copied 4DBrix designs is going to remain unproveable. You yourself use the word "coincidence" quite a few times, and it may be that this is precisely what's happened.

@Toastie is right in his assertion that there is a piety about the AFOL Community when it comes to authentic LEGO, but that the limits of this is exceeded when it comes to third party parts. However, there still seems to be a whiff of piety about what we're being expected to believe about what we should be considering as "good" or "bad". In reality once you start down the path of molding/printing parts LEGO themselves don't make to suit your designs then you move out from underneath that umbrella and all bets are off. If the community decides that it's happy to accept the limitations of 3D printed track in order to make their budgets stretch further, especially where shipping and taxes make the molded alternatives prohibitively expensive, then that's just tough luck on the competition. If people are happy enough with Ford quality and availability why should they be expected to pay Rolls Royce prices for something that basically does the same job? 

I'm sure 4DBrix could have responded to the competition better by innovating itself out of this corner, for example by improving it's market reach into other territories to make it's products easier and cheaper to buy outside of the US. I understand that it's easier, quicker and cheaper to print rather than mold parts, and that's always going to count against 4DBrix manufacturing model as it's always going to be slower to respond with new products. I don't think that many people doubt the quality of the 4DBrix product and I'm sure many would have bought it over the Trixbrix alternative had it been more easily available and less expensive to buy. No doubt the change of policy over on Bricklink hasn't helped here either. Perhaps diversification or partnership is a better way to go instead of throwing in the towel.

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I have purchased a fair amount of 4dBrix narrow-gauge straight track sections in the past, and found them to be of good quality, and this news saddens me somewhat, however a few points I think need to be made here:

 

18 hours ago, Hod Carrier said:

I'm normally one to sit on the sidelines with things like this, but I fear that we're in danger of leaving reason behind and allowing this discussion to be ruled by emotion.

It does pain me that another player is dropping out of the marketplace, but if there was any problems with perception it is perhaps that the "community" as represented here in some way owed one particular retailer/producer more loyalty (and therefore custom) than another. But this is not going to happen where that retailer/producer sells on the open market because there will always be competition, price considerations and so on that are going to inform people's buying decisions. Unless 4DBrix was going to employ some other business model his products would always be vulnerable to competition, and I don't see how this is anything other than a manifestation of the phenomenon.

I also resist this notion that 4DBrix are the only ones innovating, as even a cursory glance at the TrixBrix range will show. These are not mere copy and paste pirates, but they are also turning out unique products not available elsewhere, such as their narrow gauge track options. Whether or not TrixBrix deliberately and knowingly copied 4DBrix designs is going to remain unproveable. You yourself use the word "coincidence" quite a few times, and it may be that this is precisely what's happened.

I agree wit Hod Carrier here:  One thing that kept me from buying more tracks from 4dBrix was that their BrickLink store always seemed to be sold out of the Narrow-gauge track that I wanted, and I've been waiting for over a year for them to release the narrow-gauge turnouts they hinted at for a long time, but have never delivered on, unlike TrixBrix who HAS released narrow gauge turnouts (and a buttload of other narrow gauge track options).  Therefore, considering the options are remaining loyal to an outfit that promises basically vaporware or buying stuff I need from their competitor that actually gets the goods out (and in a manner that is more easily available to a larger amount of people), and I want to get my narrow-gauge layout done sometime this century, the choice is obvious:  Nothing personal, just business.

Quote

I'm sure 4DBrix could have responded to the competition better by innovating itself out of this corner, for example by improving it's market reach into other territories to make it's products easier and cheaper to buy outside of the US. I understand that it's easier, quicker and cheaper to print rather than mold parts, and that's always going to count against 4DBrix manufacturing model as it's always going to be slower to respond with new products. I don't think that many people doubt the quality of the 4DBrix product and I'm sure many would have bought it over the Trixbrix alternative had it been more easily available and less expensive to buy. No doubt the change of policy over on Bricklink hasn't helped here either. Perhaps diversification or partnership is a better way to go instead of throwing in the towel.

Precisely!  TBH, I think they could have made it if they focused on the Monorail stuff, since they seem to be the only game in town when it comes to that, and they were filling that nice that none of the competition seemed to want to cover.  But that's just my two cents on the subject.

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All of these small, third party track manufacturers exist because of the huge gaping hole left by Lego's extremely limited track geometry. These track builders have done a great service to us all, allowing longer, more realistically proportioned rollingstock.

I have seen some neat new things come from all of these manufacturers. The more of these innovators we have out there the better it is for all of us. Presumably all of the track manufacturers are fans first and entrepreneurs second. I doubt any of them are getting rich doing this and I suspect few of them have quit their day jobs (if you are simply putting the effort in to make money you would probably make more money for your time working at McDonald's). As such, in the name of friendly competition it would be great if all players respected one anothers innovation at least for a while, but there are no rules. Instead we have unfriendly competition that is bad for all involved- Trix undercut 4D, 4D can't afford to continue like this and so they are releasing their designs for free which in turn undercuts Trix. In that environment why should anyone attempt to innovate? But again, there are no rules.

If Trix is going to pounce on every good idea that someone else comes up with, they should do so by making it better, e.g., don't just give us R104 switches, also give us R120 and R88. Then also give us the ability to have a double diverging mainline. While I love the idea of R104 switches, my outside main is R120 so I have limited use for R104 switches. Don't just give us R40 curved switches, give us R88/104/120 curved switches, that would free up a good 30 inches off of my layout if I could put the crossovers on the wide radius curves.

Since their track is 3D printed Trix and 4D can offer an amazing system of different geometries without worrying if they can sell 100's to 1000's of copies. They can serve the niche markets where injection molding will never be viable. Even if they only sell a few copies of a rare design, each one of those copies that they sell will likely bring with it sales of many of their common designs.

Returning to 4D, I still have my hope that they can stay in the market by finding others to do the actual printing and distribution of their existing designs.

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R120 curved crossovers for the win!

Adding my two cents that if we were talking a 25 even 50% higher price for better quality (and I mean better thought out 3D printed geometries of the same part), I would choose the premium supplier every time. Early on it was pointed out V1 Trixbrix products had poor connectivity, or occasionally an odd geometry (didn't fit the 16 stud grid, etc). In that case I would look at the "premium" 3D printer, who obviously did extensive testing (it's less of a risk). But to pay double for an easy part (4L straight, R88, etc.) is just crazy, not to mention unique items (narrow gauge) and in stock parts.

I feel there is space out there for many suppliers, I will typically choose quality over price any day (after using ME track...). I look forward to premium molded options in the future as well as very custom, unique parts (R40 narrow gauge turnouts).

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I bought several items from 4DBrix and I was pretty happy, in particular with their option to control everything through a computer. I now wanted to purchase additional licenses to control more trains through Bluetooth all at once but their online shop is closed. I reached out to Tom without any response. Their software was great and I was in the middle of a big new project. Now it seems like I have to abandon my project and maybe even this whole produce line. I literally asked Tom to please take my money. If only for the their great software, it should continue.

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About this software Mattzobricks writes:

 

"Anyway, I am presently changing the whole automation system. So far, I have been using nControl from 4DBrix and enhanced the software by about 1.500 lines of own code. Unfortunately, nControl has a lot of bugs and other drawbacks, so I will move away from it and come up with a better, completely different solution.

Stay tuned for more! If you want to stay in the loop, subscribe to the Mattzobricks Facebook and Youtube channels."  (http://mattzobricks.com/)

 

I hope this solution will still be Python and will be publicly available. We have to wait and see. Mattze is using wifi bricks for trains from 4DBrix, it seems. I hope someone, somewhere will develop things like those bricks to overcome the bluetooth limitations.

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1 hour ago, bartneck said:

Their software was great

Was and >is< great ... there is nothing that I know of that can compete. But well - they're gone. I truly understand why. 

Maybe it will take a while for Tom to get over all that dirty and cynical no: that competition fall out. All that "if they had" and "better" ... forget it. It is so easy to tell people what they should have done - from the "customer" perspective - just looking at the wallet, the "I want things", "fast". It is so different from the supplier perspective. I also believe that so many more customers praise "the competition" as suppliers do - small ones, on the side of a real job suppliers that is. @zephyr1934 has pointed out (repeatedly) here on EB.

I'd "reach out" to him (I am more comfortable with "contacting him") repeatedly. And tell my story. It may work. Or not.

All the best
Thorsten

     

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10 hours ago, Toastie said:

It is so easy to tell people what they should have done - from the "customer" perspective - just looking at the wallet, the "I want things", "fast". It is so different from the supplier perspective. 

I understand both perspectives. For the Lego hobby I'm on the consumer side and for another hobby I'm on the producer side. I made a living from my company for several years, now I run it besides another job. I didn't give up, desprite declining revenues. And it never came to my mind to blame other people for competing with my company, or for buying competitor's products or for mistakes I made. 

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3 hours ago, legotownlinz said:

I understand both perspectives. For the Lego hobby I'm on the consumer side and for another hobby I'm on the producer side. I made a living from my company for several years, now I run it besides another job. I didn't give up, desprite declining revenues. And it never came to my mind to blame other people for competing with my company, or for buying competitor's products or for mistakes I made. 

I applaud you for taking this approach. It shows a maturity and an understanding of the marketplace and the differences between being a producer/supplier and a customer.

I understand the desire to wants to support 4DBrix for the benefit of the marketplace and for the hobby as a whole, but I’m just not sure how to go about doing this. Holes have been pointed out in the range that 4DBrix could be going about filling (R88/R120, curved points and diverging mainlines, just to pick from @zephyr1934’s post above). If piracy is really a concern, perhaps the long lead times imposed by Kickstarter projects are not the way to go.

I don’t entirely disagree with the sentiment that there should perhaps be a degree of cooperation between producers, but that is a somewhat naive approach to what is an open marketplace. Each producer wants to be able to corner enough of what is actually a very small marketplace so that their current project secures enough revenue to pay for the next idea. When the pie is so small it’s not likely that any producer will survive, never mind two or three, so each needs to find some way to ensure it gets enough to survive otherwise they all drop out.

I think there’s actually very little wrong with consumers wanting to get something at a reasonable price or within a reasonable timeframe. We’re all working on something and when you hear that something is in the offing you factor it into your plans and hope to get it. If the lead time is too long or the promised item fails to materialise at all then people are bound to look elsewhere. If a producer/supplier can get that right then they are a long way towards securing themselves a future and a justifiable reputation. For all of TrixBricks failings (provable or otherwise), they do at least deliver what they promise.

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I chose to use 4DBrix sensors and motors for my layout, at first because of the documentation they provided, and later because of the excellent service the EU distributor provided. It might be a little bit more expensive (although I haven't checked before now, it was not prohibitive in any case), but the documentation for use with Arduino, and the availability of the nControl software, sealed the deal for me. I hope this business model works out for them, and someone will provide these components at some point, since I will need more at some point in the future. 

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On 4/29/2020 at 6:30 AM, ohlaugh said:

Where can I buy monorail track ? 

This is something else I'd like to get out of this thread: Is there still enough demand for the 4DBrix unique products like the monorail tracks and the automation ecosystem that other manufacturers could feasibly pop up and make and sell the 4DBrix designs?

 

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I don't know if it is a copy or a competing development, but there is an ebay seller who has 3D printed monorail straights in full and 1/4 length at a lower price than 4DBrix, a search for Lego Monorail will bring it up. I was all set to buy some straights from 4DBrix when he came out of his temporary shutdown last month. When he came out with the notice he was shutting down permanently, I emailed him offering to buy any monorail track he had left over but I never got a reply. So I ended up buying 8 lengths from the ebay seller - cheaper than 4DBrix and the quality seems very good.

Dave

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On 4/9/2020 at 10:12 PM, Amicus1 said:

our nControl software has always been available to everybody for free, and want to continue to do so

I see on the 4DBrix web site that now, the software, is available only with a "year subscription".

Edit: my error. The subscription is only for use the software with other type of controllers.

Edited by GianCann
Update post

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Blah blah blah blah...have most posters actually read the 4DBrix announcement?  Or is it the usual AFOL dribble?

They're not exiting, they're transitioning to a model where they release the IP and stop the manufacturing / shipping side.

If they *can* find local 3D print operators, then shipping costs etc are local.  So the 'US = high prices' issue vanishes. 

If they can't, then clearly no demand.

Lot of blather about IP and markets and competition and all this crap.

It's a micro business.  All AFOL train stuff is a hill of beans.  Nobody gets rich on it.  

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But have they gone DIY?

I'm a real pickle. Or I was. Finally gave it up.

I discovered 4DBrix a few months before it went down. I have a compressed display area for a Monorail train. It could not be built with the native tracks, so I went hunting. I found 4DBrix and thought it might work, so I ordered a bunch of sample tracks to test it.

Sadly for me, it took a few months before I had time to work on the project properly enough to decide which additional tracks I needed for the build. I went to order additional tracks and discovered the shutdown. I'd developed a relationship with Tom, so I emailed him to see if there was any solution. He offered to mfg a few critical pieces, the rest of which could be done with native tracks (while more expensive, that's okay since it was at least still possible to complete the build). I graciously accepted, widdled down my order to the minimum and even offered to pay double. Never heard from him again.

The European site claimed to have the parts I need in stock. I tried to order a couple of times, but they refused due to import costs. I offered to pay those import costs. I didn't care about the costs. But I never heard from them again.

I opted to go to the expense of hunting down and paying the exorbitant pricing on the natively available tracks I also needed, with the understanding that the DIY would theoretically be on its feet soon. Tom stated that other mfgs were expected to come online with his designs. And if that didn't happen in a timely fashion, I could still buy from this TrixBrix copycat.

Well, I still see no DIY mfgs offering anything. This implies that Tom did not release his designs. And TrixBrix has no custom monorail (which I thought was the actual issue). I suppose they were copying his nonMonoRail designs (didn't look that far into it).

Months later, my halfbuilt Monorail still sits unattended, though I've finally taken it down and will place something else (nonLego) in its stead. I spent a good deal of money and time on this project. If Tom had mentioned that he was considering a shutdown, I could have scrapped the project or overpurchased when I had the chance. And then there's the matter of the disappointment. I was very excited about this :(

I've kept an eye on eBay to see if anyone might be willing to sell diagonals (the critical part I need), but no luck. My only other option is to rebuild my 6' wide 6' tall glassed-in display case with a 24" depth (vs the current 18"), which would support native tracks, but now we're talking too much materials waste to justify. Yes, I could put the monorail out in the open, but I built the display case to prevent dust collection (specifically).

But yeah in short. No 4DBrix. No DIYs. No TrixBrix... Project Failure.
I honestly did not realize how disappointed I was until I took it down today.
And all because of two missing track pieces, but what are you going to do? I just had very unfortunate timing.
I'm grateful to Tom for the great works he's done, but vaporizing without warning (if you'll forgive the phrase) derailed me.
If it's impossible to get Tom's products without Tom, why the shutdown?

 

Edit (moments later): Oddly, Page 2 of this thread was not visible until I submitted this post. The June response shows some progress regarding 4DBrix designs availability, not of monorail as of yet, but still some progress. I will check back periodically.

Edited by Lord Xayd

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10 hours ago, Lord Xayd said:

But have they gone DIY?

I'm a real pickle. Or I was. Finally gave it up.

I discovered 4DBrix a few months before it went down. I have a compressed display area for a Monorail train. It could not be built with the native tracks, so I went hunting. I found 4DBrix and thought it might work, so I ordered a bunch of sample tracks to test it.

Sadly for me, it took a few months before I had time to work on the project properly enough to decide which additional tracks I needed for the build. I went to order additional tracks and discovered the shutdown. I'd developed a relationship with Tom, so I emailed him to see if there was any solution. He offered to mfg a few critical pieces, the rest of which could be done with native tracks (while more expensive, that's okay since it was at least still possible to complete the build). I graciously accepted, widdled down my order to the minimum and even offered to pay double. Never heard from him again.

The European site claimed to have the parts I need in stock. I tried to order a couple of times, but they refused due to import costs. I offered to pay those import costs. I didn't care about the costs. But I never heard from them again.

I opted to go to the expense of hunting down and paying the exorbitant pricing on the natively available tracks I also needed, with the understanding that the DIY would theoretically be on its feet soon. Tom stated that other mfgs were expected to come online with his designs. And if that didn't happen in a timely fashion, I could still buy from this TrixBrix copycat.

Well, I still see no DIY mfgs offering anything. This implies that Tom did not release his designs. And TrixBrix has no custom monorail (which I thought was the actual issue). I suppose they were copying his nonMonoRail designs (didn't look that far into it).

Months later, my halfbuilt Monorail still sits unattended, though I've finally taken it down and will place something else (nonLego) in its stead. I spent a good deal of money and time on this project. If Tom had mentioned that he was considering a shutdown, I could have scrapped the project or overpurchased when I had the chance. And then there's the matter of the disappointment. I was very excited about this :(

I've kept an eye on eBay to see if anyone might be willing to sell diagonals (the critical part I need), but no luck. My only other option is to rebuild my 6' wide 6' tall glassed-in display case with a 24" depth (vs the current 18"), which would support native tracks, but now we're talking too much materials waste to justify. Yes, I could put the monorail out in the open, but I built the display case to prevent dust collection (specifically).

But yeah in short. No 4DBrix. No DIYs. No TrixBrix... Project Failure.
I honestly did not realize how disappointed I was until I took it down today.
And all because of two missing track pieces, but what are you going to do? I just had very unfortunate timing.
I'm grateful to Tom for the great works he's done, but vaporizing without warning (if you'll forgive the phrase) derailed me.
If it's impossible to get Tom's products without Tom, why the shutdown?

 

Edit (moments later): Oddly, Page 2 of this thread was not visible until I submitted this post. The June response shows some progress regarding 4DBrix designs availability, not of monorail as of yet, but still some progress. I will check back periodically.

Sorry to hear of this! I know I am not Tom but I am an owner over at Brick Train Depot. We will be offering his full line as he makes them available. He has not released the Monorail track yet but when he does, we will offer it. I know its unknown on a timeline, but there is some hope that there is a solution on the horizon. 

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