Nashnet

[MOC]Update 1|The Extreme Modeling Design for KRUPP D311 Diesel Electric Locomotive-1:35 with PF

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Posted (edited)

This is my first post that I was so confused about which theme I should post in: train? technic? scale modeling? I finally choose train tech just because it's a train after all:laugh: If I made a mistake that put it in the wrong place, please forgive me.

Actually I created a MOC train that is a 1:35 scale model and also with technic internal though it looks like ordinary stud-built. It's a model but not only looks look. It should be able to do something like the real one. 

1, Origin

It won't be happy if a man never creates something. Since my kid likes train toys very much, I start to focus on rail transportation. I found Lego's official sets are quite compromised since they need to match the mass need. The traditional scale train models are normally small and very expensive which is also hard to get in China especially one delicate like Marklin(okay, it's because of the price). We are AFOL, so I must have a scale train model, not a toy.  

2, about type

Targeting train is also in very straightforward logic. I am ready to build "Dora" (Heavy Gustav) as the showdown to my kid. I will tell him nothing is necessarily built on the rail after completion of this ultimate rail machine of all the time in history. Heavy Gustav cannot move by itself, I need locomotives. yes, before any creation on the rail, the locomotive is the prerequisite. That would be very clear, D311 diesel-electric locomotive was specialized built for "Dora" by Krupp. Two groups of double D311 drive "Dora" to move with each on two four-axis chassis. 

pic1: D311/V188 in WWII

49681638568_de1c099bec_o.jpgD311 WWII by Nash Liu, on Flickr

 

3, Scale

It is a scale model that also needs to run on standard 9V track. The scale bases on the gauge of track known as L-gauge scale that is between 1 and O gauges. I choose 1:35 because there are the most resources of 1:35 Military models When TAMIYA continually push this scale.

pic2: a scratch build D311 static model with 1/35

49682493712_f120ecf563_b.jpgScratch Build 1/35 D311 Model by Nash Liu, on Flickr

 

3, Exterior

The ordinary stud brick build is always more graceful and beautiful showing than technic build. There is no weird gap and abstract design like technic exterior. However, the stud brick is not flexible to show various details and often takes up a lot of space. SOT can show as one stud, but SNOT often has to spend 2 studs to show different details. If Lego develops more special bricks and plates for combination and detail showing, the precision of the Lego model will be up to another level. Maybe Lego's official target is only toy. 

pic3: what this lego train model looks like(I don't have enough unicolor bricks, so I post computer rendering graph)

49664671951_6e9e6ab716_b.jpgMOC D311 Diesel Electric Locomotive 1:35 Exterior by Nash Liu,on Flickr

 

4, Interior

Beside exterior, the model is ensouled by the functions that should be capable like its true body.  D311 is the most powerful locomotive at that time, so the model also should be the most powerful train in the lego universe.

 pic4: super compact technic design with 4 motors that are parts of load-bearing

49664682056_b1581ab92f_b.jpgMOC D311 Diesel Electric Locomotive 1:35 Interior by Nash Liu, on Flickr

 

5, Extreme Design

What is an extreme design? Simply speaking, it is not a waste of one stud. Designers are very likely to MOC without limits. We can often find super complex and magnificent masterpieces on the web. But the model should have confine, at least confined by scales and functions.

From the above, I list the following features.

1, Dual XL motors

2, Dual stepper motors for clutch and gearbox

3, Dual 8881 battery boxes that contain 12 AA batteries for the enormous duration

4, 2-speed gearbox

5, differential adder for XLs coupling

6, clutch between 8x8 and 8x4 driven

7, bogie integrated driven system

pic5: a prototype that shows adder, XLs, steppers, and general structures

49681644913_8296ec113c_b.jpgPrototype PowerFunction D311 by Nash Liu, on Flickr

 

6, work with its couple

The ultimate Gustav is still a blueprint in my brain. Many guys including me are curious that what they look like when Gustav is moving in history. I build GCs and PS with an appropriate scale. the model of Gustav is 1:72 normal design. I scale down D311 to match 1:35 by PS(Sorry, who can tell me which CAD can change design size by scale?)

I CANNOT wait to build 1:35 with extreme design. Although the specification is not clear yet, one thing I can make sure and a super exciting feature is how to make this giant millipede turn on Lego standard track. It should be very magnificent. 

49705058706_7b30e36b53_b.jpgHeavy Gustav with 4 D311 by Nash Liu, on Flickr

 

 

Edited by Nashnet

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Peewww...that is a fantasticly insane build 😮. So much packed together ..😮 impressive stuff 

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Nice locomotive! The exterior detailing is excellent and the technic drivetrain is equally impressive.

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Fantastic work! That's what I particularly like - a Technic chassis and a brick body. I love this locomotive, it has a nice and clean design and a sturdy, heavy duty chassis, and lots of power.

Wow! :wub_drool:

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15 hours ago, Paperinik77pk said:

Fantastic work! That's what I particularly like - a Technic chassis and a brick body. I love this locomotive, it has a nice and clean design and a sturdy, heavy duty chassis, and lots of power.

Wow! :wub_drool:

make heavy-duty, leave 8-tooth gear :laugh:

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Wow!

Does your frame bear with the enormous torque from two XLs?

Very cool design!

Best
Thorsten

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, Toastie said:

Wow!

Does your frame bear with the enormous torque from two XLs?

Very cool design!

Best
Thorsten

The level 1 gear followed the adder is a 24 tooth clutch gear(60c01) which can protect the system from unpredictable torque and no 8 tooth gear in the power system.

49692737141_581e509fce_c.jpgadder with gear clutch by Nash Liu, from Flickr

Edited by Nashnet

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, zephyr1934 said:

Do you have a video showing off all of the functionality???

I will make a video later (maybe later than I thought, the crazy virus) while I got all the bricks that build the shell. You know, I don't wanna all your guys to see a skeleton running on the rail:laugh:

and,,,,,I have to switch VPN to get youtube there, where my broadband access drop from 500M to 50k~ :innocent:

Edited by Nashnet

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That is quite a locomotive. You've packed a serious amount of PF equipment inside.

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Posted (edited)
16 hours ago, Nashnet said:

24 tooth clutch gear(60c01)

When does that clutch gear kick in? Would it tolerate the full torque of an XL motor?

Man I like this beast very, very much.

Best
Thorsten

 

Edited by Toastie

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8 hours ago, Toastie said:

When does that clutch gear kick in? Would it tolerate the full torque of an XL motor?

Man I like this beast very, very much.

Best
Thorsten

 

Well, the 24 teeth clutch gear is like fuze wire. It has the unique ability to harmlessly slip the axle if sufficiently high torque is applied.

Normally, the threshold is 2.5~5 Ncm, so if torque came from XL is over 5 Ncm, it will slip and protect all the systems.

60c01.1076166029.jpg

 

We should know a single XL motor's torque is about 14.5Ncm, Dual XLs with adder is even up to 14.5x2x80%=23.2Ncm. This is much higher than any clutch's threshold. Actually it is another topic.

A single XL motor can make lego plastic axle permanently damaged. Dual XLs can twist it apart. 

What is the result? The clutch gear keeps the system under the 5Ncm output. When it comes to the potential, It can up to over 20Ncm, but first of all, maybe we have to change to the steel axle and other components that don't exist in Lego world. 

 

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I find this build very clever, great packaging in a small space, full of functionality that I cannot wait to see in action. What will this beast pull?

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2 hours ago, baard said:

I find this build very clever, great packaging in a small space, full of functionality that I cannot wait to see in action. What will this beast pull?

it was born to pull Heavy Gustav, the ultimate rail machine in human history, so, this model, will pull 1:35 Heavy Gustav :laugh_hard: which is still in my mind.

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1 hour ago, bogieman said:

To overcome the plastic axle limitation, this ebay seller has stainless steel axles:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/19-units-long-stainless-steel-axle-X-style-works-with-Lego-Technic-gears/262583950400

Yes, I see. Look at this, the steel axle can resist over 1000Ncm! However, if we change axles, we have to change everything either. It will not be Lego model again. I am not a Radio Control scale model fans, at least in the forum. I prefer to follow the rules of Lego world.

 

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12 hours ago, Nashnet said:

What is the result? The clutch gear keeps the system under the 5Ncm output.

That was the intention of my question - why would one then use XLs? And why two?

Best
Thorsten

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53 minutes ago, Toastie said:

That was the intention of my question - why would one then use XLs? And why two?

Best
Thorsten

It does seem a bit odd. 1 L motor or 2 M motors would hit the clutch gear's torque limit as well and probably consume less power than 2 XLs, surely?

I don't think a clutch gear is necessary anyways - axle twisting like that is not likely in a Lego train. In those videos, you've got a very long axle (which is more likely to twist) rigidly secured on one extreme end (not applicable to a Lego train use case) being twisted by motors with an extreme down-gearing... Which you could do! But without the other two conditions, potential for damage to your axles is low.

Even if the train was so heavy that the XL motors could not pull it, the wheels would slip and keep the motors from a stall condition. 

While I have seen Lego parts damaged in Lego trains, in memory it's only been gears and even then, it's very rare and probably from the geartrain itself having a lockup while running. I've had XL motors stall out a couple times during my drivetrain learning days and can't say I've ever damaged - let alone destroyed - any of the parts involved.

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8 hours ago, Daedalus304 said:

It does seem a bit odd. 1 L motor or 2 M motors would hit the clutch gear's torque limit as well and probably consume less power than 2 XLs, surely?

I don't think a clutch gear is necessary anyways - axle twisting like that is not likely in a Lego train. In those videos, you've got a very long axle (which is more likely to twist) rigidly secured on one extreme end (not applicable to a Lego train use case) being twisted by motors with an extreme down-gearing... Which you could do! But without the other two conditions, potential for damage to your axles is low.

Even if the train was so heavy that the XL motors could not pull it, the wheels would slip and keep the motors from a stall condition. 

While I have seen Lego parts damaged in Lego trains, in memory it's only been gears and even then, it's very rare and probably from the geartrain itself having a lockup while running. I've had XL motors stall out a couple times during my drivetrain learning days and can't say I've ever damaged - let alone destroyed - any of the parts involved.

Thanks for the deep thinking of this model. :pir-grin:

My design philosophy is to recreate the spirit of real things. so I try my best to build the most powerful lego locomotive like its real body, this is the core motivation and must match. That is why 2 XLs needed. 

On top of that, let us consider engineering issues. 2 XLs have monster torques, How to make full use?

Actually I wanna classify this model:

Level 1: remove gear and power, it is like a static model that kids can pull by hands on the rail. Most of kids like to do this more than RC.

Level 2: one group of power(1 XL+1 battery box) equipped with the clutch gear and 8x4 driven just for light-duty, That why I put an adder in the system. Clutch gear is still necessary, You know, the actual performance is determined not only by the design and mechanism but assembling is mort important. the potential lockup is not rare when inappropriate or untuned assembling, especially for the kids.

Level 3: For ALOFs, we wanna release the full power, let's remove to normal 24 teeth gear, 8x8 driven. all the systems can resist high torque. 

Yes, your guys are right, axle damage is rare especially in a lego train. the bottleneck for the rain is always friction. For this model, it is heavy with batteries(the most tight way to increase the weight in limited space is AA battery) and 8x8 driven that maximum friction. Of course, XLs have low speed, It's also important.

I linked those videos just to show the torque that the axle can tolerate. No related to the build method of Lego.  

Thanks again for all your guys discussion.

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Why don't you use a single battery pack to power both motors and save space even of the double receiver? 

In any case, a beautiful construction technique and an intriguing model! :wub:

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The videos are hilarious, thanks for sharing. I would agree with the others though, the clutch doesn't seem consistent with the build. The wheels spinning on the track become your clutch. After all, is it really extreme if you remove the risk of self-destruction? (grin)

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1 hour ago, zephyr1934 said:

The videos are hilarious, thanks for sharing. I would agree with the others though, the clutch doesn't seem consistent with the build. The wheels spinning on the track become your clutch. After all, is it really extreme if you remove the risk of self-destruction? (grin)

To add to that - the Schwerer Gustav this thing is supposed to pull could only fire a very limited amount of ammo before its barrel had to be rebored .... the engine should be heavy on wear too :)

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12 hours ago, LEGO Train 12 Volts said:

Why don't you use a single battery pack to power both motors and save space even of the double receiver? 

In any case, a beautiful construction technique and an intriguing model! :wub:

I fixed the scale and dimension then I was thinking how many functionals could put it in. 

Why do I need to save space if there no other interesting stuff need to equip? 

Besides, there is an engineering issue if only one battery pack. The center of balance is not in the middle. It could derail when turn, and also low the friction which is the key point for the train's drag force. Weight matters

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11 hours ago, Nashnet said:

Why do I need to save space if there no other interesting stuff need to equip?

Lol! :grin:

11 hours ago, Nashnet said:

Besides, there is an engineering issue if only one battery pack. The center of balance is not in the middle. It could derail when turn, and also low the friction which is the key point for the train's drag force. Weight matters

I understand, the only thing is that you have to make sure that the two receivers pick up the signal simultaneously to avoid unpleasant consequences.

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