Star Trek 2 Mafia - Day Six

[Pandora]

1 hour ago, Hinckley said:

Emphasis added. Weird that you say I'm making up things that actually did happen. How nefarious of me! Telling the truth about things that actually happened! Picard-that's one definite Town and two likely townies. Pretty comfortable place for you to sit when the rest of us were all confused. Only Scum can confidently put people in the Town column like that, and it's not like you to place anyone in the "definite" town column when you're actually Scum-hunting.

Now, I'll go back and read the rest of your post, because I responded immediately to this paragraph without reading the rest, which is a thing I do. That's how I read the threads. Gotta say, if you are Town, which I highly doubt, your Scumdar is way off, because not only am I Town, I've been actively working in the Town's best interest the entire time. Not sure why you wouldn't be able to see that, unless it was convenient for you to feign it and try to get me lynched on the last Day, in order for you to win.

Funny that definite was the exact word you used.

I'm just going to requote myself here:

On 3/1/2020 at 7:04 PM, Pandora said:

As I've also already said, the events at the end of yesterday provided some clarity. Ironically clarity that you are now somewhat clouding. The fact that Riker has been willing to listen and evaluate evidence other than just about me, and the actions of Picard in conjunction with Data to prevent the scum from getting a night kill - well, that's one definite town (Data - we all wondered) and two likely townies. I know I'm town, and until this post I kinda thought you were too, so that left Forg.

Deanna, can you count?

"The fact that Riker.... and the actions of Picard... in conjunction with Data... well, that's one definite town and two likely townies." The definite townie is Data, because he's dead and confirmed to be town, something I didn't know he was until after he died, unlike you. The two likely townies are Riker and Picard (oh lookie here, I'm talking about Riker!) and then I say I know I'm town, and I thought you were up until then, so that's what made me think it must be Forg.

No definite ideas about any living players and a natural and logical evolution of ideas.

 

1 hour ago, Hinckley said:

But where? When? I haven't seen you look at Riker's actions very much at all. You definitely aren't today. It's like you're Scum and just need Riker to keep his vote on me, so you're just repeatedly digging into what I've said today and not really bothering to look into him at all. And you can pick apart, line by line, what I've said today but it doesn't seem like you're looking outside of my words today much, at all. You're quoting me today, but are you looking back at the rest of the game? Or are you just trying to cruise through this final 10 hours with me likely to be lynched and hoping you can do just enough to keep things where they're at?

I've mentioned Riker plenty, and I've mentioned why I don't think Riker is scum and why I do think you are. Saying the opposite doesn't make it true. I've said that I think Riker is playing a great town game and that if he really is scum then he absolutely deserves the win. I've even already mentioned it today, and I've mentioned it on previous days. I'm looking at your words because you are the one who is arguing with me and the one who I think is scum. I've been talking about events from previous days, Day One and Day Three immediately spring to mind as other days I have mentioned already today, but I've looked at all of them today, so yes, I am looking outside of your words and outside of today. I've been talking about all sorts of other players when relevant, but sadly they are gone now and I'm here arguing with you.

This isn't cruising it's exasperating, and I think I'm doing more than "just enough". 

 

23 minutes ago, Hinckley said:

"Hedging my bets like you." pings me hardcore. I'm not sure why.

Neither am I.

It makes about as much as me saying that you saying "hardcore" pings me too. Which is no sense, in case I'm not being clear.

23 minutes ago, Hinckley said:

I'm not ridiculing you. I'm pointing out that this isn't typical behavior for you to come up with crazy game mechanics theories. How many times in this game have you told me I'm either dumb, crazy or Scum. Well, I'm not Scum so you're calling me dumb or crazy. That's fine. I can accept I'm either dumb or crazy. What I'm pointing out is your behavior is inconsistent. Even stringing together the way you've approached this game is not consistent with the Town-Wesley I know. It hasn't flowed together like one person trying to figure the game out. It's been stilted and all of your suspicions isolated in one single suspicion of conviction with people in definite or likely Town columns. What you're calling my "hand-wringing" and waffling has been me trying to figure things out, not trying to confuse anyone. I've been searching for clarity while you appear to have had it this entire game.

You're saying my behaviour isn't consistent with what? Previous games? That's pretty much the definition of metagaming right there. And I have certainly had my doolally moments with crazy theories before, but even so, what's the harm in speculation?

And once again, you think I'm scum because you think I'm scum and I'm not playing the way you think town Wes would play.  What game would I be trying to figure out if it's all so obvious? I have, however, made huge efforts to find the second scum, whilst simultaneously having to argue with virtually everyone about why I am actually town and not scum. Not "flowing" and "stilted" my arse.

Your posts have been full of so much extraneous crap and waffle you have confused things far more than clarified them. 

23 minutes ago, Hinckley said:

That's the reason I voted for Beverly and that's the way I did it and the order I read the thread. Her statement pinged me and I voted. Nobody else had such a strong ping. Forg voted why he voted, I voted why I voted. What were you up to during this time? You were defending Beverly. What's Scummier? Me, voting second while not knowing what vote position I was in? Or you trying to save her and then accusing Forg later of bussing Beverly, when he didn't just vote, he made a solid case against her? And now I was bussing her, you say. But you didn't say these things until you had to find someone suspicious. You were so sure it was Forg on Day Four and that his vote proved that he was trying to distance himself, but when Forg turned up Town you didn't think I was Scum for where I voted, you didn't think any of us were Scum (because none of us were, you are) but when did you first mention my voting position on Beverly? It's not like you to pick up on Day One pings four days after the fact.

This is breathtaking. I have had intermittent suspicions of you since Day One, but as is normal they have waxed and waned and are interpreted relative to one's suspicions of others. You're saying I should have been just as suspicious of you on Day One as I am of you now?  I bring this up now because it's in the context of me believing more strongly you are scum, and I have to find someone suspicious because there's a remaining scum to find (and thinking there isn't a remaining scum to find is, apparently, crazy, and I've stated several times that I find you scummier than Riker). You're basically describing me having a theory, that theory being tested and proved wrong and me going back to find another theory that fits better with the new information available. You're saying I'm town, thank you.

23 minutes ago, Hinckley said:

Most of the rest of this post, you're repeating things you've already said and I've already answered to.

Well, you said yourself that one of your best points for showing your "towniness" was how you saved the town from you killing them at night by killing them in the day. You weren't planning on coming back to that?

You're not going to answer the bit where you lied about me being involved with the end of Day Three?

 

23 minutes ago, Hinckley said:

I am so freaking busy and I don't have the time to be doing this.

Me too. Yet here we are.

[Hinckley]

43 minutes ago, Pandora said:

Deanna, can you count?

"The fact that Riker.... and the actions of Picard... in conjunction with Data... well, that's one definite town and two likely townies." The definite townie is Data, because he's dead and confirmed to be town, something I didn't know he was until after he died, unlike you. The two likely townies are Riker and Picard (oh lookie here, I'm talking about Riker!) and then I say I know I'm town, and I thought you were up until then, so that's what made me think it must be Forg.

No definite ideas about any living players and a natural and logical evolution of ideas.

OK, I see that. I hadn't been reading it that way, but it at least makes more sense.

On 3/1/2020 at 1:04 PM, Pandora said:

As I've also already said, the events at the end of yesterday provided some clarity. Ironically clarity that you are now somewhat clouding. The fact that Riker has been willing to listen and evaluate evidence other than just about me, and the actions of Picard in conjunction with Data to prevent the scum from getting a night kill - well, that's one definite town (Data - we all wondered) and two likely townies. I know I'm town, and until this post I kinda thought you were too, so that left Forg. 

When you said "That's one definite Town" the most recent subject who was still alive was Picard. So, I thought you were putting Picard in the definite Town column for his behavior at the end of Day Three. And the parenthetical (Data - we all wondered) again made me think he hadn't just been referred to. I can see how I read that wrong, it's not a great sentence, no offense. Regardless, it's still odd for you to put two people in a likely Town category. The rest of the day was Forg. Forg. Forg. Forg. Forg. And you didn't relent or reconsider even though your case was pretty weak. He voted first, that's diabolical. Then you picked apart his sentence structure the same way you're doing to me. By process of elimination, you said you came to Forg as your most likely suspect because you were checking off the rest of us into likely Town columns. That's a pretty weak suspicion for you to dig into for the rest of that Day. And you claim to have believed it so much that the new Day just floored you and you couldn't imagine that any of use were Scum and therefore maybe nobody was Scum. This is not like you, or to try and not metagame, not like any Town player to believe so strongly in a game with no info but the lynch result that anybody else is Town. I'm being metagamed to the gills here with my diabolical vote-leading and my ability to confuse people and act innocent. Metagaming may be warned against by hosts but it's done by everybody and it does inform a lot of decision making. It's not really a good idea to ignore it, especially when your behavior is so less careful than it normally is.

You only voted for Picard yesterday after he voted for you. Because he voted for you, you couldn't keep going after me, so you went after Picard, knowing that Riker would fall right in line and I would likely lynch Picard to avoid a night kill, something you gave Picard Town credit for in this same quote we keep talking about where you decide we're all likely Town, so it must be Forg.

On 3/6/2020 at 2:48 PM, Lind Whisperer said:

 Forgot the proper format. 

Unvote: Picard(Lind Whisperer)

Vote: Wesley(Pandora)

On 3/6/2020 at 2:49 PM, Pandora said:

I've thrown stuff at you before in this game, but I am happy to admit my case against you is by no means water tight. My back's been against the fucking wall for the whole of this fucking game. I have to work out which one of you is scum while you're trying to get me lynched. Again.

The most frustrating thing about this is that you now, finally, sound like me. I read your post and it feels just like the way I have felt throughout the whole of this.

Yeah, I was like that on Day One and it's brought me no end of grief.

Fair enough, and me either. I fucking hate this. I know I go into the little itty-bitty small things, but that is how I always play.

That's really nice, but what kind of game am I playing if I'm Town, which I actually am?

I'm not going point to point, I'm just trying to make this easier to read.

 

And this is pretty much what I've said before about myself. And you were all weird about it when I said it. I'm not saying you're scum for saying this, I'm actually hoping that right now you might actually see where I've been coming from. I mean it'd be nice to pretend that that was my intention, but it wasn't, and you might not see it anyway.

I'm not willing to bet against you, but would you take the same bet on me? $1000 if I'm Town? $10? A LEGO ice tray??  

Unvote: Deanna (Hinckley)

I just want to scream.

 

 

On 3/6/2020 at 3:17 PM, Pandora said:

Yeah, it was funny at the time.  

I don't want it back! That would add insult to injury. If we're both Town you can keep it, but if you're scum I'll take the $1000 thanks.  

I just don't see it being Riker, and I agree that if it is then he deserves the win. To come in and not vote me out when he unquestioningly could have (and I know you could argue it keeps people looking at me, but I don't agree) would be, in my opinion, a genius scum move. The rest of his play has seemed to be a solid town game too.

By a process of elimination that makes me think it must be Picard.

Vote: Picard (Lind Whisperer)

You've been watching us duke it out and when I repeat a point I've already made you're pinged? Not conclusive by any means, but weak. 

Are we done yet?  

In the span of 30 minutes, you unvote after Picard switches his vote and then just switch to Picard. "By process of elimination" yet again. In a game where we don't have Night Action results to counter what we're saying during the Day, you can't play by eliminating anybody from your suspicion list and dig into one. You can only do that if you already know who the Scum are. And that has been your behavior throughout the game. What you're calling, in my behavior, sowing confusion is actually the way to play as Town because you cannot trust anybody or have the luxury of believing somebody is likely Town and that's what really causes the agony in this setup. None of us have had the luxury of being so certain of our vote.

You've said that Riker is likely Town because he looks at other cases-besides you-and considers all cases and that Picard was likely Town for working to avoid a night kill. These are two behaviors I've exhibited throughout the game. To be convincing Town you would have to scrutinize Riker at this point and he's highly capable of sitting in this position and pitting us against each other to cruise through the last Day and win, but you haven't. All you want to do now is keep Riker's vote on me. I would be less sure of you as the final Scum if you were actually considering Riker's ability to be Scum at this point. Actually, if you had voted for Riker my head would've exploded trying to decide between the two of you. But your behavior today, and now looking even more closely than I had been at your previous behavior, makes me believe that it must be you.

Riker, if you're Town, I hope you can see that. If you're Town, then you and are the two Town that remain in the game and Wesley is the second Scum. Wesley keeps saying that my voting to extend the Day every Day is no big deal, but that wasn't my point. I voted first to extend most Days because we needed the time to get as much out of each other as possible. And as far as avoiding the night kill, I didn't want the Scum to have that ability. Not lynching someone and letting the Scum have a night kill guarantees another day and I've just wanted the game to end. As I've said, if I were Scum, I would've left my vote on Wesley yesterday and then killed him to vote Picard along with you today. But I couldn't do that because I don't have a night kill ability because I'm not Scum. I'm Town. If you are as well, I really hope you can see that it is Wesley and not me that is the final Scum.

[Pandora]

Oh yay, another wall of text from Deanna.

I'm not going to answer everything in your endless, waffley, scummy ravings, but I have a couple of points:

 

28 minutes ago, Hinckley said:

OK, I see that. I hadn't been reading it that way, but

... you still go on about it. You've danced up and down about me being certain and definite and it turns out I'm not and I wasn't. But you still waffle on about how I might be.

28 minutes ago, Hinckley said:

Then you picked apart his sentence structure the same way you're doing to me.

28 minutes ago, Hinckley said:

I can see how I read that wrong, it's not a great sentence, no offense.

...Yeah  

 

28 minutes ago, Hinckley said:

It's not really a good idea to ignore it, especially when your behavior is so less careful than it normally is.

WIFOM alert, but.... wouldn't I be more careful if I were scum ^{TM Deanna Troi}  

28 minutes ago, Hinckley said:

and now looking even more closely than I had been at your previous behavior, makes me believe that it must be you.

Ah, so going back and looking at things in more detail is actually acceptable, despite you trying to paint it as unacceptable when I do it.

 

You voted to extend the day first, what do you want? A medal? You don't vote to extend the day on your own, and I voted just the same:

• Day Six - Deanna, Riker
• Day Five - Deanna, Picard, Wesley (I even put them in chronological order)
• Day Four - Deanna, Wesley, Picard, Forg
• Day Three - Deanna, Forg, Wesley, Riker
• Day Two - Deanna, Wesley, Forg, Picard, Data
• Day One - Deanna, Data, Wesley, Geordi, Picard

I didn't bother today because I didn't need to because it had already been achieved.

Like I said, it didn't matter to you whether you prevented the night kill or not as long as you weren't the one being lynched. One dead townie is as good as another for you!

You still haven't responded about your blatant lies about me being involved with the end of Day Three. 

I do indeed want Riker's vote to stay on you, because I think you are scum and I know I am town, and I have considered Riker a million times (ok, maybe slight exaggeration there, but still) and on balance I don't think he's anywhere near as scummy as you are. I don't know how many times I need to say this.

[Hinckley]

25 minutes ago, Pandora said:

Oh yay, another wall of text from Deanna.

 

People who live in walls of text houses... I'm actually trying not to repeatedly go point after point with you because I'm starting to think you're doing it on purpose to just muddy the waters and make it more difficult for Riker to see the truth.

25 minutes ago, Pandora said:

Like I said, it didn't matter to you whether you prevented the night kill or not as long as you weren't the one being lynched. One dead townie is as good as another for you!

But, as I've said repeatedly, if I were Scum I would've had a much easier time without you and voting for Picard with Riker, who had wanted to lynch Picard every day. The same thing you took advantage of yesterday so you could make it to today. I much rather would've been killed or lynched than be here right now. You flipped immediately to Picard because that was the only hope you had of getting one of us lynched. You couldn't turn on Riker because he was the least likely to be lynched and you knew Riker would happily vote along with you. And if I didn't switch over, you could've chosen which one of us to kill.

25 minutes ago, Pandora said:

You still haven't responded about your blatant lies about me being involved with the end of Day Three.

I haven't lied about anything so let me go back and figure out where you're accusing me of this and I'll certainly respond.

[Bob]

Vote Count:
Wesley Crusher / Pandora - 1 (Hinckley)
Deanna Troi / Hinckley - 2 (Darkdragon, Pandora)

About 4 hours remain in this day.

[Hinckley]

6 hours ago, Pandora said:

My last post where I quote Forg (the one to which you are referring) was me answering his accusations of me, not the other way around. At the end of the post I questioned his towniness, which is kinda common in a game like this, especially when you're Town and you feel persecuted. That is so very far from what you attest. 

 

Congratulations on not appearing on Page 3 of Day 3 which consisted of about 20 minutes. Nothing I've said about that Day is false. And it's not far, at all, from what I attest. You ignored my question or consideration of allowing a night kill. There's no concern voiced, at all, that the Day is almost over and we haven't reached a lynch. Not that you would've voted for yourself to avoid the night kill. You had already voted for Data, which I've already discussed my suspicion about where you voted and the fact that I had three posts before that laying out my suspicions of Data. You say yourself I control the vote, so voting for a person that I found most suspicious, other than you and was vocally trying to decide which was best, can be seen as pretty manipulative. "If everybody follows Hinckley's vote and he's talking about how suspicious he is of Data, maybe if I vote for Data, so will he and everybody else will follow." Yes, you defend yourself to Forg, but again, that's like your only interest. You're not concerned about the lack of lynch, you don't comment on anything else. You don't only "question... (Forg's) towniness," you remind us that he is the "deviousest (sic) scummy scum" to have ever played the game. You claim his metagaming is Scummy, which you've certainly metagamed me, as I have you and everybody, not a sign of Scumminess, it's how we play. But, if we're Scummy for doing it, your metagaming makes you Townie, somehow? Then you vote Forg the next day and are suddenly sure that he is the last Scum. As much as you want to say that it's me who people follow when voting, you've been the first vote on every person lynched in this game, except for Beverly. And every one of those people has turned up Town. So, as much as everyone wants to say that I'm diabolical and silver-tongued and everybody follows my vote, I'd like Riker to see that it's you who has been the most diabolical, the most silver-tongued and that every Day since Day Two we've followed your votes and they've always given us a Townie. Every. Time. Riker voted first today, but he's still trying to figure us out. You're the one who is dead set against me and if I'm lynched, I will be the fifth player that you've said is the Scummiest that will flip Town in the morning. And the Scum will win.

[Hinckley]

There's about an hour left...or two if you want to take Daylight Savings into account and give Riker the full 72 actual hours so he has the time to read everything that was posted after his last visit...

[Darkdragon]

I'm catching up with everything that's been posted today.

[Bob]

Vote Count:
Wesley Crusher / Pandora - 1 (Hinckley)
Deanna Troi / Hinckley - 2 (Darkdragon, Pandora)

With 2 votes, Deanna Troi / Hinckley has been lynched. The conclusion will be up soon.