Control+ General Discussion

[kbalage]

Just now, Verodin said:

Saw your interview a while ago, thank you for that. But it doesn't sound too promising for the near future. Really hope they update it let's say this year.

Considering the the pace of development and the public releases of the different code blocks that are already used in the app-specific profiles I would say that the team probably lacks the resources to take care about the github documentation as well. I hope TLG will realize the importance of the subject and will resolve the resource issue.

[Toastie]

2 hours ago, kbalage said:

I asked this during my interview with the Powered Up app owner, this was all I got:

I know this is being looked into, but I don’t have exact details to share at the moment.

Actually, to me it sounded absolutely odd when the open source route was announced by TLG (regarding the LWP).

Open source is so far away from TLG as the planning charts and demolition orders are at our local planning department in Alpha Centauri for the new hyperspace express route.

So we better stick to the Pup "Teardown" thread - it also nicely resonates with the Vogon approach ...

All the best,
Thorsten 

[2GodBDGlory]

I suppose it is time for me to toss down my opinion on all this Control + stuff. After all, this is the internet, where everyone gets to post their opinion, even if nobody cares!

The system has some interesting functional upgrades over PF, mainly in how it allows for more flexible "servo" motors, and the options offered by the programmability. Plus, the motors are somewhat more powerful, and the bluetooth control gives better range than IR does. Plus, prices are quite reasonable on Bricklink, even if they are stupid from Lego. The main issues are as follows: There are no extension wires, which severely limits flexibility, and we are limited to four outputs per hub, and if you want a smaller hub, you only get two outputs! If If I wanted to recreate my 1:7 Bugatti Chiron Moc with PU, I would have to use at least four hubs, which would be ridiculous! I used only a single rechargeable battery for mine, which took up far less space. This issue is made worse by the fact that there is no way to power two motors from a single output. The touchscreen control has some downsides (getting a phone, setting it up, and poor tactile control), but it allows for plenty of flexibility. Perhaps Lego could cook up a simple remote for those who only need simple control, and leave the touchscreen for the more complicated models. Plus, the motors are bigger! The final downside, which will likely be rectified, is that there is no rechargeable battery.

As an alternative to the PU system, I would have much preferred an addition to the PF system, that would still allow for advanced servo functions and programmability. This would require a smart motor, similar to the new L one, and a receiver roughly equivalent to an SBrick, with bluetooth control. Lego would also have to figure out a way to get six leads into a standard PF plug, but only on the bluetooth receiver and smart motor. I looked at the plug, and I think it would be possible.

Of course, it is far too late for Lego to change this, so we will just have to hope that Control + improves enough that we can keep the advantages of PF, along with the advantages of PU

Thus ends my rant.

[hawkwind]

I’m wondering, is it worth it to buy control+ or just stock up on pf? I’m concerned that within a decade control + will be bricked. I do not like the approach LEGO is taking because it is complicating something that is supposed to be simple with a sub par app. The 9v system works thirty years later, I kind of wonder what control + will do in 2050.

[JaBaCaDaBra]

30 minutes ago, hawkwind said:

The 9v system works thirty years later

Some of the hardly used 9 volt components work 30yrs later.
Most were allready thrown away cause they're worn out.

All these kids toys have a very limited life.
You may stock up some new motors but you know as well as everyone that FA a motor fully wears out on a show,
actually you need several motors for one show when you're running GBC's etc.

[Ngoc Nguyen]

41 minutes ago, hawkwind said:

is it worth it to buy control+ or just stock up on pf?

Since TLG has released a powerup/control+ compatible dumb battery box, you can buy the control+ motors and wait til the dumb battery box is more accessible and stock it too

[Verodin]

29 minutes ago, JaBaCaDaBra said:

You may stock up some new motors but you know as well as everyone that FA a motor fully wears out on a show,
actually you need several motors for one show when you're running GBC's etc.

Wait, what?! With show I'm assuming you mean a single day, e.g. less than 24h running. That's a horrible lifespan! What's the MTBF for PF motors?

[howitzer]

28 minutes ago, JaBaCaDaBra said:

Some of the hardly used 9 volt components work 30yrs later.
Most were allready thrown away cause they're worn out.

All these kids toys have a very limited life.
You may stock up some new motors but you know as well as everyone that FA a motor fully wears out on a show,
actually you need several motors for one show when you're running GBC's etc.

This. I don't buy any Lego electric components with the expectation that they last for even 10 years of use, let alone 30. Unused parts can be preserved to be working 30 years later but if you're going to be actually using your PU motors instead of just storing them, they will wear out long before there's any danger of software being discontinued and becoming unusable.

[Toastie]

2 hours ago, hawkwind said:

The 9v system works thirty years later, I kind of wonder what control + will do in 2050.

 

1 hour ago, JaBaCaDaBra said:

Some of the hardly used 9 volt components work 30yrs later.
Most were allready thrown away cause they're worn out.

46 minutes ago, howitzer said:

I don't buy any Lego electric components with the expectation that they last for even 10 years of use, let alone 30.

 

I believe what @hawkwind was referring to is the system rather than the wear and tear, right?

When you put a 9V to rest for 30 years it will most probably work after that. A remote with push buttons and some "hard-wired" or better dedicated IR stuff also. But: WiFi, BL, BLE, Android, Apple's stuff and Whatnot will not. Nothing of that stuff has ever survived 30 years. It looks good now ... but then 30 years ago there was no Android or I cell phone. 30 years in the future there will be no Android or i cell phone and BLE will be regarded as stone aged, short range, unbelievably slow and clumsy communication means. It is what it is, as somebody said recently.

If you want to preserve Pup for 30 years, better put an Anrdoid or iphone aside with the Pup stuff. And a charger.

Best
Thorsten 

 

[Gimmick]

31 minutes ago, Toastie said:

 But: WiFi, BL, BLE, Android, Apple's stuff and Whatnot will not. 30 years in the future there will be no Android or i cell phone and BLE will be regarded as stone aged, short range, unbelievably slow and clumsy communication means.

He's from the future!!1

*Btw. BT 31 years

[howitzer]

8 minutes ago, Toastie said:

 

 

I believe what @hawkwind was referring to is the system rather than the wear and tear, right?

When you put a 9V to rest for 30 years it will most probably work after that. A remote with push buttons and some "hard-wired" or better dedicated IR stuff also. But: WiFi, BL, BLE, Android, Apple's stuff and Whatnot will not. Nothing of that stuff has ever survived 30 years. It looks good now ... but then 30 years ago there was no Android or I cell phone. 30 years in the future there will be no Android or i cell phone and BLE will be regarded as stone aged, short range, unbelievably slow and clumsy communication means. It is what it is, as somebody said recently.

If you want to preserve Pup for 30 years, better put an Anrdoid or iphone aside with the Pup stuff. And a charger.

Best
Thorsten 

 

Yes, that's probably what they referred to, but is this even a true problem? I mean, why would you buy PU components now and not use them until 30 years later? I find it highly unlikely that 9V system components were bought at the time with the idea that they'd be preserved for use today, and those that are today sold as new probably come mostly from unsold leftover sets that have been forgotten in stores of retailers. Yes, they still work, but is there any need for them to work? Maybe if you wanted to restore an old set for collection purposes but beyond that, I'm not sure why anyone would even want to use those parts, as both PF and PU are superior in every way to 9V system, not to mention 4,5V system before that.

Of course, there's no one stopping you if insist on stocking up on PF and never moving on to PU. It's just that technology marches on and at some point you'll run out of replacement components for the obsolete systems. PF Servo is already quite expensive and it won't get any cheaper. PU is also only at it's infancy and while it really does have some serious drawbacks compared to PF, they will probably be addressed in the future. Also, while the protocols and operating systems on today's mobile devices will become obsolete some day, they will probably be hacked to work with newer devices too. If you consider for example the PC games of the 90's and even earlier, there are many ways to play them on today's hardware. Only if you insist on having something really specific like the sound chip of the original Commodore 64, you're either out of luck in for some very costly shopping.

[kbalage]

49 minutes ago, Toastie said:

If you want to preserve Pup for 30 years, better put an Anrdoid or iphone aside with the Pup stuff. And a charger

30 years ago I was playing with the Great Giana Sisters on my Commodore 64. I don't have a Commodore 64 anymore, but I can play with the exact same game on my phone that was not even on the drawing board that time. If anyone wants to play with Powered Up hardware in 2050, there will be a way to do it for sure.

[JaBaCaDaBra]

2 hours ago, Gimmick said:

He's from the future!!1

*Btw. BT 31 years

He's however right.
Where is serial gone?
And Shugart, SASI, SCSI, PCI? and some now very obsolete wireless connections (lucky cause they worked often like megabricks)
Some of these most here will never even have heard about but they disappeared really not so long ago.
 

2 hours ago, howitzer said:

the sound chip of the original Commodore 64

No problem at all, there is a perfect emulator of the SID 6581 that uses the original mapping of MOS.
However the point you mean is that we can emulate almost everyting now and Androïd will also be emulated in the future.
What do I say, you can allready emulate any androïd version on a Windows computer.

4 hours ago, Verodin said:

Wait, what?! With show I'm assuming you mean a single day, e.g. less than 24h running. That's a horrible lifespan! What's the MTBF for PF motors?

Somewhere in the GBC topics you can find the details but you best first fetch yourself a handkerchief cause you won't keep it dry.
MTBF 3 to 7 hours, depends a bit on load offcourse.
3 motors a day on a show is no exception too.

Edited August 9, 2020 by JaBaCaDaBra

[Gimmick]

1 hour ago, JaBaCaDaBra said:

He's however right.
Where is serial gone?
And Shugart, SASI, SCSI, PCI? and some now very obsolete wireless connections (lucky cause they worked often like megabricks)
Some of these most here will never even have heard about but they disappeared really not so long ago.

Where is PF gone? And 9V, 12V, 4,5V? 27MHz? Infrared? Some things disappear fast, others do not. Because it is actually not all the same. That's why I said: BT is already there for > 30 years and it is getting more and more common in various devices, cars,...

I do get your point, and yes if it's only a simple switch with two cables it will last long(er). And even it it's broken, it can be easily fixed. That is undeniable true and the way to go if reliability over centuries is your goal.

But what does this mean?

Remote controller? Not possible.

Multiple trains with different speed/direction on one track? Not possible.

Different motor speed? Not possible.

Everything beyond that already shares the same problems. And in almost every discussion in the end it's the same fictive situation: What if every hardware does still work, but the software moved on?

In this case lego did actually chose with BT the right technology. It's common, reliable, growing and downwards compatible and they published the protocoll. Using IR in the first place was the mistake.

But what if the hardware is broken? What is the plan if the IR controller does not work anymore in 30 years? Buy a new one? Not possible. Repair it yourself? Good luck.

That's even a problem with 2,4 Ghz devices. There is no compatibility across companies. Will they still produce  compatible controllers in 30 years? Who knows...

Priorizing longlivity? No problem, go for it, but I hope it's ok if I'm not satisfied with turning things on and off.

Thinking PF will live forever because no software is involved? Nope. :)

For me in terms of longlivity Lego was wrong designing their own plugs for PU. Everything else is fine.

Edited August 9, 2020 by Gimmick

[JaBaCaDaBra]

Just now, Gimmick said:

they published the protocol

+

1 minute ago, Gimmick said:

Buy a new one? Not possible. Repair it yourself? Good luck.

= You allready answered it.
You may even send IR signals with a phone, or a learning TV remote.

[Gimmick]

1 minute ago, JaBaCaDaBra said:

+

= You allready answered it.
You may even send IR signals with a phone, or a learning TV remote.

Phones that seem to not exist at all in 30 years still have IR but no BT? ;D

I maybe wrong, but I think there is no official IR protocol. If you mean, that there are things published by fans: If we accept that as possibility -> everything will work in 30 years ;)

[dr_spock]

Link to the official LEGO IR Protocol document ->  link

If your phone doesn't have IR, you can make a BT to IR interface. 

     

My Commodore VIC20 still works although it is hard to find a new TV with composite inputs these days. 

[Gimmick]

52 minutes ago, dr_spock said:

Link to the official LEGO IR Protocol document ->  link

If your phone doesn't have IR, you can make a BT to IR interface. 

     

My Commodore VIC20 still works although it is hard to find a new TV with composite inputs these days. 

Nice, so every problem is solved :D

[JaBaCaDaBra]

1 hour ago, dr_spock said:

My Commodore VIC20 still works although it is hard to find a new TV with composite inputs these days.

I have the same problem and a converter to hdmi is..... to slow for a VIC
(vic with 64K dynamic ram)

BTW
A beamer has often S-Video and that works with a VIC
So we played GORF on a quite big screen.

Edited August 9, 2020 by JaBaCaDaBra

[howitzer]

5 hours ago, JaBaCaDaBra said:

No problem at all, there is a perfect emulator of the SID 6581 that uses the original mapping of MOS.
However the point you mean is that we can emulate almost everyting now and Androïd will also be emulated in the future.
What do I say, you can allready emulate any androïd version on a Windows computer.

Oh, I thought there was some problems in manufacturing new chips according to the original specifications, but it's nice to hear that identical-sounding new chips are being produced.

[Verodin]

On 8/7/2020 at 9:42 PM, 2GodBDGlory said:

The main issues are as follows: There are no extension wires, which severely limits flexibility, and we are limited to four outputs per hub, and if you want a smaller hub, you only get two outputs!

This and the slightly bigger motors prevents a lot of the bigger mocs to be build once PF is gone. I recently build Jurgen's ultimate 42082 and that would not be possible with the PU system. Not to mention the lack of medium (technic) motors. I really want those, since the current PU motors are quite big.

4 hours ago, Gimmick said:

... they published the protocoll.

...

That's even a problem with 2,4 Ghz devices. There is no compatibility across companies. Will they still produce  compatible controllers in 30 years? Who knows...

No they didn't. They published an initial version. Last time I checked the documentation/code all the Technic stuff was missing and has been reverse engineerd. End result is probably the same, but saying they published it, implies it's 100% complete and up to date. Which it isn't.

2.4 Ghz is just a frequency band, while BLE is a fully specified standard. Not the same thing ;)

Edited August 9, 2020 by Verodin

[Gimmick]

19 minutes ago, Verodin said:

No they didn't. They published an initial version. Last time I checked the documentation/code all the Technic stuff was missing and has been reverse engineerd. End result is probably the same, but saying they published it, implies it's 100% complete and up to date. Which it isn't.

2.4 Ghz is just a frequency band, while BLE is a fully specified standard. Not the same thing ;)

What do you mean with "technic stuff"? Commands for motors with angular measurement are in the doc since 2 years I think.

I know that's the point. It's the ususal argument is discussions like that. "XY uses 2.4 GHz remote and will work forever, why is Lego not doing this..." It does not mean that everything will work together forever and after.. ;)

[Verodin]

If memory serves me right the device IDs of the technic hubs for example. The documentation has a table and newer devices are completely missing. Don't know if this applies to motors as well. Haven't taken the time to dig further into it. Kids kind of ruin your spare time that goes into these things :D

But I have to be realistic. BLE is specifies all the needed tiny Bluetooth details and whether TLG or someone else completes the PU implementation docs/protocol/etc, the chances of it being usable many years from now only skyrockets. Nothing kills of a product as quickly as a secret proprietary protocol and that is fortunately not the case here. A plus is also that Lego is used all over the world by who knows how many people. This also greatly increases the chance of things working in the future. More people messing around with it ;)

[Gimmick]

Just now, Verodin said:

If memory serves me right the device IDs of the technic hubs for example. The documentation has a table and newer devices are completely missing. Don't know if this applies to motors as well. Haven't taken the time to dig further into it. Kids kind of ruin your spare time that goes into these things :D

But I have to be realistic. BLE is specifies all the needed tiny Bluetooth details and whether TLG or someone else completes the PU implementation docs/protocol/etc, the chances of it being usable many years from now only skyrockets. Nothing kills of a product as quickly as a secret proprietary protocol and that is fortunately not the case here. A plus is also that Lego is used all over the world by who knows how many people. This also greatly increases the chance of things working in the future. More people messing around with it ;)

Possibly the device IDs are missing, no idea :) At least for motors that's nothing crucial.

Basically everything no-matter-how-"closed"-source it is works if enough people are interested in it :D That's why I do not like the "proprietary" plug design. Lego is not even selling own extension cables - for whatever reason. So a lot of things are yayyyy, others are meeeehhhh.

[howitzer]

Lack of extension cables is indeed a severe limitation, but hopefully an TLG will be release them in the future. If not, I'm sure someone will start making unofficial cables at some point.