Why is LEGO so hesitant about bringing back classic themes?

[The Brick Boss]

Just now, MAB said:

This puts it perfectly. If they think new themes will sell better than redoing old ideas, then they will go with new.

Just like if old themes worked out better than new ones, they'd go back to the old. Considering how successful SW, LOTR and POTC are, I doubt kids would even want classic Space, Castle and Pirates back. 

[TeriXeri]

5 hours ago, Brandon Pea said:

 I doubt kids would even want classic Space, Castle and Pirates back. 

I think that sadly might be true, kids are exposed to so much more licensed media nowadays, either via TV/series/movies, Video games or general mass advertisements.

I grew up with LEGO before the internet, even when Star Wars original Trilogy movies are older, it was just a movie like anything else.

Europe had many of it's own franchises and countries had their own kids shows and characters, before television "commercialized" , during the 90s there was a big rise of imported cartoons from the US/Japan etc, and television got a lot more commerical channels.

 

In the last decade or so City, Creator, Friends, Ninjago are the current long-lasting Core of in-house, and I just hope that "pillar" isn't showing weaknesses yet.

Edited February 24, 2020 by TeriXeri

[The Brick Boss]

24 minutes ago, TeriXeri said:

In the last decade or so City, Creator, Friends, Ninjago are the current long-lasting Core of in-house, and I just hope that "pillar" isn't showing weaknesses yet.

If that happens, I will never look at Lego the same again. But considering that finding licensed replacements for those would be pretty difficult, I doubt they'd be discontinued. Heck! City, Creator, Friends and Ninjago are the most popular generic themes from Lego with City being number 1. 

[Masked Mini]

On 2/22/2020 at 11:39 AM, Lego David said:

the reason why LEGO doesn't bring them back

It's hard to bring something back successfully that you do not understand.
It is clear they do not understand what made them successful if you look at their last attempts to clone classic pirates with less and less success.

You can reheat a great dish in the microwave but it will be less good every time. You need to actually know how the recipe worked and be able to recreate the dish from scratch to be able to recreate the success of the original dish and to improvise and expand on the original without sacrificing quality. The proof may lie in the blurb about Jens Nygaard Knudsen's passing, him being the main design force behind the classic themes and his retirement in 2000, coupled with the big restructure TLG did around the same time to avert bankruptcy. They may simply no longer have the base design philosophy culture that drove Classic Space/ *-tron/ Pirates/ Castle. 

That flows directly into the bean counter argument. If you attempt to release a reheated theme and it does poorly it is hard to justify releasing another reheat or a re-re-reheat of a theme. Of course you could argue that they should then pour in the resources to understand WHY it failed to capture sales, address those issues and try an improved release. BUT why bother when another wave of Ninjago or whatever generic licensed theme will be successful of the bat. TLG does not need to understand Harry Potter movie set design, only needs to copy it as faithfully as the budget allows to be successful. Ninjago is the brainchild of the current design philosophy at TLG, it has been proven and iterated upon for a decade(?) or so. Why invest resources in trying to teach the current crop of designers a different design philosophy from 40 years ago? How is that profitable when Legends "proved" that the 80s sets don't sell well. Yes I know that is a hotly contested statement and I find fault in it myself. But management (in my experience) look only at numbers and rarely how time has impacted the context of those numbers.

Edited February 24, 2020 by Masked Mini

[The Brick Boss]

@Masked Mini Pretty long. But I understand and agree. 

[MAB]

58 minutes ago, Masked Mini said:

It's hard to bring something back successfully that you do not understand.
It is clear they do not understand what made them successful if you look at their last attempts to clone classic pirates with less and less success.

You can reheat a great dish in the microwave but it will be less good every time. You need to actually know how the recipe worked and be able to recreate the dish from scratch to be able to recreate the success of the original dish and to improvise and expand on the original without sacrificing quality. The proof may lie in the blurb about Jens Nygaard Knudsen's passing, him being the main design force behind the classic themes and his retirement in 2000, coupled with the big restructure TLG did around the same time to avert bankruptcy. They may simply no longer have the base design philosophy culture that drove Classic Space/ *-tron/ Pirates/ Castle. 
 

And what if the thing that made them successful was just because they were good for the time / all there was at the time. People also change. Exactly the same product 40 years later may bomb now, not because the product is suddenly worse but because the target audience has moved on.

Prawn cocktails used to be seen as an exotic starter in the 1970s. In the UK, a glass of orange juice was often served as a starter in restaurants and was fashionable at the time. These days the same offering would be a bit crap. Even though the product hadn't changed, the audience has.

 

[Masked Mini]

5 minutes ago, MAB said:

 Even though the product hadn't changed, the audience has.

 

You make a good point.

But I disagree with the assertion that it is true in this instance.

My reasoning is thusly:

Town Space seems to sell well, Saturn V die for sure, ISS is hotly anticipated. Star wars continues to sell the same 20ish sets. There most certainly appears to be appetite for Space Prawns from children and adults.

Harry Potter sells like a champ. LOTR didn't do as well but is now highly sought after. There appears to be appetite to an extent amongst children and quite a bit more amongst adults for fantasy/castle prawns.

Pirates we have not had in recent child memory. Some of you guys mentioned PotC but aside from the one shot display silent Mary we've not had any PotC sets in years. But I will state that there remains a significant appetite amongst children and adults for peglegged prawns. How? Look at Playmobil. The Germans will know of course and Playmobil is aggressively expanding in the US. Playmobil is a direct competitor in Legos target child age groups. Playmobil has never stopped selling pirates and castle. Space comes and goes though.

The same financial reasons given for why Lego does not do those themes apply to Playmobil. Yet they continue to see those themes as profitable. That leads me to conclude that it is not that prawn cocktails have fallen out of favor but rather Legos interpretation of the recipe. 

[Lego David]

1 hour ago, Masked Mini said:

The same financial reasons given for why Lego does not do those themes apply to Playmobil. Yet they continue to see those themes as profitable. That leads me to conclude that it is not that prawn cocktails have fallen out of favor but rather Legos interpretation of the recipe

I definitely agree. The problem lies in LEGO not knowing how to properly make those themes rather than the lack of interest from the customers. As you pointed out, Playmobil is a great example that there still is interest in those themes.

I think a potential solution to that would be to hire new designers that properly understand those themes. I am pretty sure there are plenty of them out there.

Edited February 24, 2020 by Lego David

[TeriXeri]

23 minutes ago, Masked Mini said:

Pirates we have not had in recent child memory. Some of you guys mentioned PotC but aside from the one shot display silent Mary we've not had any PotC sets in years. But I will state that there remains a significant appetite amongst children and adults for peglegged prawns. How? Look at Playmobil. The Germans will know of course and Playmobil is aggressively expanding in the US. Playmobil is a direct competitor in Legos target child age groups. Playmobil has never stopped selling pirates and castle. Space comes and goes though.

I actually saw Playmobil figures for sale in my supermarket last week, which doesn't even usually sell toys, and guess what, the figures were 2 different pirates and a knight.

And they weren't Blind bags either.

[pombe]

1 hour ago, Masked Mini said:

If you attempt to release a reheated theme and it does poorly it is hard to justify releasing another reheat or a re-re-reheat of a theme. Of course you could argue that they should then pour in the resources to understand WHY it failed to capture sales, address those issues and try an improved release.

This is the classical marketing/sales dilemma of being able to give the customers what they ask for, but not what the customers actually want.  Customer survey after survey tells you what the customers are asking for, but when you produce the product based on that input and put it on the shelf, and it doesn't sell then it obviously wasn't what the customer wanted.

The recipe analogy is apt; there's a reason why the industry calls it the "secret sauce".  Finding and hiring people who truly have their finger on the pulse of the customer (as a population) is one of the most difficult achievements in any business.

[The Brick Boss]

30 minutes ago, Masked Mini said:

Town Space seems to sell well

City Space sells well because of the theme its under. City happens to be one of the most popular themes out there as it basically teaches children about the different jobs that are out there and astronauts is one. It teaches children more about careers than city life. So that type of space is a little different as it shows space sets from a job point of view rather than fantasy. So to compare City space to space sets in general isn't really a fair comparison. 

[TeriXeri]

13 minutes ago, Brandon Pea said:

City Space sells well because of the theme its under. City happens to be one of the most popular themes out there as it basically teaches children about the different jobs that are out there and astronauts is one. It teaches children more about careers than city life. So that type of space is a little different as it shows space sets from a job point of view rather than fantasy. So to compare City space to space sets in general isn't really a fair comparison. 

I just hope Creator and IDEAS Pirates sets sell well enough for more of them.

And the Blacksmith shop as well but that's likely not for 2020 or at the very end of the year at minimum.

 

As for Space, after 2019 City and LEGO Movie 2, I don't expect new Space sets for a while.

I do think City Space will stay on shelves this year, but LEGO Movie 2 sets got even 40% off from LEGO themselves.

But at least it looked like Benny's Squad was very popular so hopefully LEGO got the message.

Edited February 24, 2020 by TeriXeri

[gza]

14 hours ago, Lego David said:

Really? How many kids do you know that actively communicate with LEGO? I personally don't know any.

Just want to give my personal experience-  I live near Lego HQ and had a family friend who worked there. As a kid I remember going to watch the Bionicle movie, being asked questions about it and various other products (the one I remember in particular is Clickits).  I'm certain Lego does an enormous amount of testing and market research on their target demographics. We all anecdotally think these themes would sell well because they're what we loved when we were kids, but Lego is more in touch with what their average consumers will buy than we are.

[The Brick Boss]

5 minutes ago, gza said:

We all anecdotally think these themes would sell well because they're what we loved when we were kids, but Lego is more in touch with what their average consumers will buy than we are.

That's a good point! We were kids in the 90s, when Lego was going through a rather dark period in life (though to us, it was a golden age). This is the 2010s and 2020s where kids are much different. They want different things. If you go to the Thomas the Tank Engine fandom (which I'm also a proud member of), you'll see all the backlash that the producers get for the so-called "issues" with the series today. But the thing that the designers at Lego and the producers of Thomas and Friends have in common is their willingness to change for the better. They have to pander to new fans in order to survive in this day and time. 

Edited February 24, 2020 by Brandon Pea

[TeriXeri]

22 minutes ago, Brandon Pea said:

That's a good point! We were kids in the 90s, when Lego was going through a rather dark period in life (though to us, it was a golden age).

Well, for myself, the late 90s certainly weren't the golden age, while I still had some Town Junior sets, I did buy less and less LEGO eventually settled into a Dark Age after 2001.

And I know there were a lot of sets and themes even in 2001/2002 still , via sites like Brickset, but my personal experience was that there certainly was a lot less advertisements.

LEGO was going through a dark age/reform itself as it spent too much budget, so the cut back on advertising makes some sense but it didn't keep me in LEGO over video games which with internet, online features, multiplayer was rapidly developing at the time, and franchises like Pokemon appeared very popular.

Now I don't have stats/numbers, just personal experiences.

Edited February 24, 2020 by TeriXeri

[Masked Mini]

13 minutes ago, gza said:

We all anecdotally think these themes would sell well because they're what we loved when we were kids, but Lego is more in touch with what their average consumers will buy than we are.

I disagree with your conclusion though I am in lockstep with you on the first part.

If Lego is more in touch with their target consumer demographic and that is why there is no more pirates or castle... Then by corollary all their competitors for that demographic that are supplying pirate and Knight products are out of touch and should be losing sales. Yet the fact that there continue to be those products for sale year after year shows me that can't be the whole truth.

[Lego David]

19 minutes ago, gza said:

Just want to give my personal experience-  I live near Lego HQ and had a family friend who worked there. As a kid I remember going to watch the Bionicle movie, being asked questions about it and various other products (the one I remember in particular is Clickits).  I'm certain Lego does an enormous amount of testing and market research on their target demographics. We all anecdotally think these themes would sell well because they're what we loved when we were kids, but Lego is more in touch with what their average consumers will buy than we are.

So basically what what you are saying is that LEGO decides what appeals to kids based on tests they do with Danish kids that happen to live near Billund? Or how exactly does this system work?

[Masked Mini]

Lego may have an intimate market survey process in or near Billund but that will only give you data relevant for the greater Billund area. You might be able to extrapolate for communities with a similar culture but you introduce assumptions that will need to be tightly controlled for. Or you risk assuming that because, for example, the Billund boys age 5-10 aren't interested in Pirates that no boy in any market would be interested.

[gza]

36 minutes ago, Lego David said:

So basically what what you are saying is that LEGO decides what appeals to kids based on tests they do with Danish kids that happen to live near Billund? Or how exactly does this system work?

My point is only that Lego conducts an enormous amount of research and testing, in addition to the huge amount of data they undoubtedly have about which sets and themes have historically sold best to certain demographics, variances due to geographic area, etc.  that none of us have access to a fraction of.  The idea that a company posting $2 billion in yearly sales, who right now is clearly tailoring their offerings to certain demographics like China, doesn't look at this kind of data and communicate with their core customers is hard to believe.   Just because you don't see children posting on the internet about their opinions on Lego's latest products doesn't mean Lego doesn't listen to them.  You and I (and anyone else on Eurobricks for that matter) aren't representative of Lego's average consumer simply by virtue of being adults, and especially adults interested enough in the hobby to be active on a Lego forum; it doesn't mean that Lego doesn't want to court the demographic that we belong to (they clearly do, look at Medieval Blacksmith, Pirate's Bay, the Pirate/Castle themed offerings in the CMF line, etc.) but we are not their core customer.

Edited February 24, 2020 by gza

[gza]

58 minutes ago, Brandon Pea said:

That's a good point! We were kids in the 90s, when Lego was going through a rather dark period in life (though to us, it was a golden age). This is the 2010s and 2020s where kids are much different. They want different things. If you go to the Thomas the Tank Engine fandom (which I'm also a proud member of), you'll see all the backlash that the producers get for the so-called "issues" with the series today. But the thing that the designers at Lego and the producers of Thomas and Friends have in common is their willingness to change for the better. They have to pander to new fans in order to survive in this day and time. 

Pretty much my line of thinking. I have gone back on classic-castle.com and seen discussions from the early 2000s where users absolutely panned Knights Kingdom 2 saying it was "not even a real Castle line". Well, I was a kid at the time, and I absolutely loved KK2. As much as I didn't like Nexo Knights for all I know there are kids out there for whom it's their favorite theme. I think we're a lot less in touch with what the kids of today want than we think.

Edited February 24, 2020 by gza

[Masked Mini]

Way to not address the argument there champ. 
 

Just now, gza said:

My point is that Lego conducts an enormous amount of research and testing, in addition to the huge amount of data they undoubtedly have about which sets and themes have historically sold best to certain demographics, variances due to geographic area, etc.  that none of us have access to a fraction to. 

Can you prove that assertion or back it with a citation or atleast some argumentation?
How does this system work? You don't know because you don't have access to it. Is there even a system or a series of oneshot surveys?

You too are arguing based on anecdotal evidence of being in a survey once as a kid.

You said Lego HQ, that means everyone will assume you speak of Billund.
How does the US location make a difference to Billund (Lego HQ)?
So swap Billund for Enfield, Ct. (US regional HQ), does the argument collapse?

Every single toy company out there does what you are alleging TLG does. Their direct competitors FOR THEIR TARGET CHILD DEMOGRAPHIC- MALE AGED 5-10 do the same surveys. And yet those direct competitors continue to have Pirates and Knights in their portfolio. Why? Why does TLG not? And why is their answer different than TLGs if they are surveying the same demographics and studying the same markets.

 

6 minutes ago, gza said:

You have to understand that you and I (and anyone else on Eurobricks for that matter) aren't representative of Lego's average consumer simply by virtue of being adults, and especially adults interested enough in the hobby to be active on a Lego forum.  

I bolded the above for you since you missed it. I have not been arguing about adults being TLGs average consumer. Instead I have gone to pains to argue that TLG's actual target demographic IS interested in those themes despite TLG not providing them.

[Toastie]

43 minutes ago, gza said:

that none of us have access to a fraction of.

Exactly.

43 minutes ago, gza said:

but we are not their core customer.

Exactly.

All we do here is pure speculation. Database: Our very own personal experience and hearsay. At least this is what I am reading.

Give me 2500 bucks and I'll get a copy of this 120 page toy market analysis thingy: "Global Toys And Games Market 2020-2024" to tell you more bits. It will only be bits though. 3 years ago I did some consultation for a pretty potent German company - they wanted to assess the market situation in the mass spectrometry sector. They paid €20000 for four such market reports and gave me a copy. It was an interesting read. But nowhere close to answer any question of "why do they do this and that". You really do get a nice overview though. There are so many of these analysis companies - it feels foul. Nevertheless: TLG for sure has those, their own and so much more of data input for their decisions. 

We have close to zero.

All the best
Thorsten 

 

Edited February 24, 2020 by Toastie
plural of decision is decisions

[Masked Mini]

Just now, gza said:

early 2000s where users absolutely panned Knights Kingdom 2. Well, I was a kid at the time, and I absolutely loved KK2.

So there was interest in Knights by kids 15 years ago? And in the 90s? And in the 80s? And ofcourse in the 70s.
Maybe there is still interest in Knights by kids in the 2020s. Maybe a Castle theme needs to be released to capture that enthusiasm. Or maybe we can continue to ignore a market segment and let them get their Knight fix with competitors like Playmobil.
 

Just now, gza said:

I think we're a lot less in touch with what the kids of today want than we think.

So because you read people bashing a theme's execution that kid-you anecdotally liked, we are out of touch for arguing that there should be … more castle??
This seems twisted around in conclusion. I'd say your conclusion would have been apt that those bashing KK2 (and I suppose it's possible Nexo Knights) are out of touch with what kids actually want out of a Castle theme. But I don't see how you conclude that people wanting a Castle theme option for kids are out of touch, based on your related experience.

 

[gza]

22 minutes ago, Masked Mini said:

Way to not address the argument there champ. 
 

Can you prove that assertion or back it with a citation or atleast some argumentation?
How does this system work? You don't know because you don't have access to it. Is there even a system or a series of oneshot surveys?

You too are arguing based on anecdotal evidence of being in a survey once as a kid.

It's data from their sales.  I don't have access to their financial statements as they are a private company. However, here's a couple small excerpts from the executive summary of Mattel's 2017 financial statement which I quickly pulled up:

"Mattel bases its production schedules for toy products on customer orders and forecasts, taking into account historical trends, results of market research, and current market information."

"Competition among the above companies is intensifying due to trends towards shorter life cycles for individual toy products and an increasing use of high technology in toys. In addition, as a result of the phenomenon of "children getting older younger" resulting from children outgrowing toys at younger ages, Mattel competes with companies that sell products outside the toy aisle, such as electronic consumer products and video games. Competition continues to be heavily influenced by the fact that a small number of retailers account for a large portion of all toy sales, allocate the shelf space from which toys are viewed, and have direct contact with parents and children through in-store purchases, coupons, and print advertisements. Such retailers can and do promote their own private-label toys, facilitate the sale of competitors’ toys, and allocate shelf space to one type of toy over another. Competition is also intensifying due to the availability of online-only distributors, including Amazon.com, which are able to promote a wide variety of toys and represent a wide variety of toy manufacturers, and, with limited overhead, do so at a lower cost."

"During 2017, 2016, and 2015, Mattel incurred expenses of $225.2 million, $215.3 million, and $217.8 million, respectively, in connection with the design and development of products"

Lego is acutely aware of their competitors offerings just as Mattel is- if we don't see them offering similar products, it's a fair assumption they have data or analysis to back it up. Also I'm simply trying to add to the discussion, there's no need to be so dismissive.

Edited February 24, 2020 by gza

[Toastie]

18 minutes ago, gza said:

Lego is acutely aware of their competitors offerings just as Mattel is- if we don't see them offering similar products, it's a fair assumption they have data or analysis to back it up

I absolutely agree with you. See my post above, just edited it. We can get more input as well - we will have to pay for it though. A lot. It's for the professionals

All the best,
Thorsten

P.S.: This one lists LEGO explicitly ... $3500

Edited February 24, 2020 by Toastie
another link in the wall