Lego is dropping behind dragon designs

[Medzomorak]

I just saw another Lego clone (MEGA Construx) dragon set and got surprised how far Lego dropped behind with some of its designs.

I think this is how Smaug should have looked like. Or how an ultimate version of him should have been released instead.

In the meanwhile the new Lego Hungarian Horntail looks nothing like the original dragon in the movie.

They've just reused the bird head part, even the old molded one was more authentical:

The old horntail is the most static one ever, still my favorite because of the nice shape design.

However I'd prefer dragons to be mostly brick built. Sadly, for some reason I get the feeling molded ones are still better, because Lego just can't do it right with bricks. Smaug is pretty cool for a molded one, but as I've said, the Drogoth version would be the ultimate way to create a legendary beast with wings like a hurricane. Newer castle ones gave almost too +4 feeling to me.

The viking ones had better size and dynamism for it, but too much use of bionicle elements:

At this point I'm just going back again realising how simple, silly and adoring classic Lego was.

 

Edited February 17, 2020 by Medzomorak

[Vindicare]

You can’t compare that GoT dragon to the horntail, for many reasons. HP one is short of 300 pieces at $30 while the GoT is over 700 at $70, with the dragon being the only build. Looking at other dragons on the shelves, I think the Ninjago ones are great. Even the older brick built dragon should we’re pretty cool. I don’t own Smaug, but he looks pretty amazing. 

I’m not overly find of the Fantasy Castle dragons. They’re neat, but nothing great. 

[Medzomorak]

2 hours ago, Vindicare said:

You can’t compare that GoT dragon to the horntail, for many reasons. HP one is short of 300 pieces at $30 while the GoT is over 700 at $70, with the dragon being the only build.

But I just did compare it. It really shouldn't be the piece count that decides whether a model is actually looking good or not. You just omitted the fact that Lego REUSED the head piece to build a unique model, while also ruining the original scale (like the neck). It has nothing to do with piece count. A bad design is a bad design.

True, I did not mention Ninjago dragons. Most of them are actually pretty great indeed. My only concern that the whole Ninjago design concept includes a lot of mecha/robotic, modern weaponry vibe to the builds so I can't really say which one should they be, beasts or robots. So they're a bit off, but only from a fantasy point of view.

Edited February 17, 2020 by Medzomorak

[deraven]

58 minutes ago, Medzomorak said:

3 hours ago, Vindicare said:

You can’t compare that GoT dragon to the horntail, for many reasons. HP one is short of 300 pieces at $30 while the GoT is over 700 at $70, with the dragon being the only build.

But I just did compare it. It really shouldn't be the piece count that decides whether a model is actually looking good or not.

Well, maybe it would be better to say that it's an unfair comparison for a few reasons.  Mainly, you're comparing a set that is a dragon to a set that contains a dragon.  I think that's more what Vindicare meant.  That is, when the directive for the designer is "create a Harry Potter set around this topic at this price point" and the dragon isn't the main focus it's not fair to compare that to a set where the only thing in it besides 1 figure is the dragon itself, and at a higher price point to boot.  It's more fair, IMO, to compare it to the larger Ninjago dragon sets that are in a similar price range and where the dragon is the main build.  In that case, as you agreed, the dragons are much better done (if in a style that's sometimes less organic by design).

That being said, I agree that TLG could be doing better in the middle ground with non-molded dragon designs. They have the elements available to do it well, I think they just haven't produced a set recently that hits the sweet spot for piece budget in a set to devote to it, and/or with a designer that wants to take it on as a challenge along with the rest of the design requirements.

[NathanR]

29 minutes ago, deraven said:

That being said, I agree that TLG could be doing better in the middle ground with non-molded dragon designs. They have the elements available to do it well, I think they just haven't produced a set recently that hits the sweet spot for piece budget in a set to devote to it, and/or with a designer that wants to take it on as a challenge along with the rest of the design requirements.

Lego did do a pretty good job with the five dragons in the Elves series a few years ago. They were designed to be cute and friendly, rather than the vicious and aggressive dragons that usually feature in stories. The dragons had different styles of horn for the back of the head, the ability to breath fire from the throat, moveable wings, moveable legs, a very flexible tail - to echo the point @Vindicare made, in this case the dragons had the advantage of being the main focus of the set and had the majority of the parts lavished on them.

 

 

 

Edited February 17, 2020 by NathanR

[Medzomorak]

30 minutes ago, NathanR said:

 to echo the point @Vindicare made, in this case the dragons had the advantage of being the main focus of the set and had the majority of the parts lavished on them.

I don't see how the horntail is not the main focus of the set, or why a brick built dragon shouldn't ever be.

I haven't really noticed these elven dragons, that's my bad. I don't really like them being four legged, I'm more like a wyvern concept fan, but these are well built in their own league, I agree.

[Lego David]

I honestly am not a fan of the Ninjago dragons for a few reasons. I don't like brickbuilt heads (which most of the current Ninjago dragons use) and prefer molded heads. The Vikings and Elves dragons are my personal favorites. They have a good balance of brickbuilt and molded parts, which I really like. In my opinion , that's the way LEGO dragons should be: not 100% molded (like the Castle dragons) and not 100% brickbuilt (like the Ninjago dragons), but a combination of the two.

With that said though, Smaug is still an awesome dragon mold.

[Peppermint_M]

Point 1 - A Dragon has 7 limbs (Wings, tail and 4 legs) a Wyvern has 5 (Wings, tail, two legs) so it is not a dragon at all! A lot of literature is guilty of messing this up! #seriousbusiness()

Point 2 (One I am surprised no one has covered yet) - The Game of Thrones sets are not designed for children. These are sets for adult collectors ('cos it would be pretty messed up if the intended audience of Harry Potter was also watching Game of Thrones). The Harry Potter LEGO is designed with the age group of 8-12 years old in mind, so the complexity of the build has to be targeted to that ability.

Also, design parameters for a toy for kids, as apposed to a model kit for the adult collector, means the design has to hold up to play use. The Game of Thrones Dragon is intended to be built and put on display to collect dust for a decade (or until the cat knocks it down) or put away. The Harry Potter set is created for kids to re-enact the book/film scene complete with action features.

Now, if we take a set that is a Dragon, and it is the focus:

70653 Firstbourne is an impressive beastie. No "technology" weapons and as I own the set, I can tell you that the saddle and chains are designed to be taken off for easily so the Dragon is unfettered and free. It was a joy to build and the only "action" feature is an unobtrusive and impressive mechanism to make the wings flap in sync. 

So, yeah, LEGO does not create and sell Dragons for the discerning adult collector; they are making some pretty cool dragon designs for their target audience. 

[Medzomorak]

2 hours ago, Peppermint_M said:

Point 2 (One I am surprised no one has covered yet) - The Game of Thrones sets are not designed for children. These are sets for adult collectors ('cos it would be pretty messed up if the intended audience of Harry Potter was also watching Game of Thrones). The Harry Potter LEGO is designed with the age group of 8-12 years old in mind, so the complexity of the build has to be targeted to that ability.

There's a lot of kid's toy in game of thrones category not to allow me to accept this point:

Also I think this is again a new angle to try to validate Lego's design, so I humbly try to point out again: The Drogon is just an example for authenticity. It is a great design and for today's average piece count measures it is not something Lego could never do. And again: The Harry Potter horntail is still nothing like the one we saw in the movie. It would be great as some kind of general giant bird (with feathered wings), but for a horntail, it is a lazy design. I wouldn't even say it looks bad as a Lego build, only it is not what it should represent. For an unnamed castle or creator set I'd even like it.

Here, a MOC by Brick Munkey. This is how you do a horntail dragon. Just give it a molded head, some wing rubber material, no need to throw away a lot of specific bircks to make it lighter in piece count and there you are. Ready for kids to play.

 

Edited February 17, 2020 by Medzomorak

[TeriXeri]

I think the small MEGA dragon looks too much like an action figure, too specialized.

But also think the large one still looks okay and is very posable compared to a static statue (seen the Jangbricks review on it) , so it's also by far not the worst dragon design.

MEGA does do nice marbled pieces and almost no stickers but I can't speak from experience.

 

Firstbourne certainly looks great, I like that style of build a lot more then some of those too pre-moulded LEGO dragons out there.

But even with pre-moulded heads, I also prefer the Elves designs over the "Smaug" and "Bionicle" style designs.

 

One of the other amazing LEGO Dragon designs I've seen more recently is this , and since it's an alternate build, it's even more impressive, by @grohl

 

Edited February 17, 2020 by TeriXeri

[Vindicare]

8 hours ago, Medzomorak said:

But I just did compare it. It really shouldn't be the piece count that decides whether a model is actually looking good or not. You just omitted the fact that Lego REUSED the head piece to build a unique model, while also ruining the original scale (like the neck). It has nothing to do with piece count. A bad design is a bad design.

True, I did not mention Ninjago dragons. Most of them are actually pretty great indeed. My only concern that the whole Ninjago design concept includes a lot of mecha/robotic, modern weaponry vibe to the builds so I can't really say which one should they be, beasts or robots. So they're a bit off, but only from a fantasy point of view.

Piece count absolutely matters when you’re critiquing a design. If we swapped the horntail for Drogon, it would be amazing. The horntail is probably what...125 pieces? Compare that to the 700 or so that Drogon is. I can agree that the horntail we have is a bit underwhelming, but we have to take the set(and wave) it came in into consideration. The head is a let down, most people agree to that. They also have quite a lot of new parts being released in that theme, so they had to pick & choose. It’s size aside, once you get it in hand & built, it’s not so bad. Hopefully if this theme runs long enough, we can get a more appropriate dragon. 

[Medzomorak]

2 hours ago, Vindicare said:

Piece count absolutely matters when you’re critiquing a design. If we swapped the horntail for Drogon, it would be amazing. The horntail is probably what...125 pieces? Compare that to the 700 or so that Drogon is. I can agree that the horntail we have is a bit underwhelming, but we have to take the set(and wave) it came in into consideration. The head is a let down, most people agree to that. They also have quite a lot of new parts being released in that theme, so they had to pick & choose. It’s size aside, once you get it in hand & built, it’s not so bad. Hopefully if this theme runs long enough, we can get a more appropriate dragon. 

I understand your point, but honestly I'm just not so forgiving in this case. The first horntail came into existence in 2005. It is one of the best and most valuable dragons for molded fans behind Smaug. 15 years later, when brick built direction is more preferred we get this. Okay, we may see the other grey dragon (from the Bank scene) later on, but it is highly doubtful a new horntail would come along anytime soon. No one told Lego to create it from 125 pieces, considering this is a fan favorite beast from this universe.

I've included the other dragon designs so we may very well point out that Lego has the budget and the skill to create all kinds of dragons. Now, if I just translate what you've said, you agree with me that this dragon is not that good. Only that you want to present it with a very possitive attitude. But following this method, there is no bad sets, everything is just acceptable if we take wider and wider scopes into consideration. As I said I'm not compromising with this.

Thus comes my conclusion, that Lego has dropped behind with folklore dragon designs* after this horntail. It is not good. 

*I'm omitting dragons with brickbuilt heads - like Nexo Knights, Ninjago - as they're too robot/mecha like for me. I need the molded head to get more of an alive feeling from it (but that's just a personal taste).

 

Edited February 17, 2020 by Medzomorak

[Vindicare]

Just now, Medzomorak said:

I understand your point, but honestly I'm just not so forgiving in this case. The first horntail came into existence in 2005. It is the best and one of the most valuable dragons for molded fans. 15 years later, when brick built direction is more preferred we get this. Okay, we may see the other grey dragon (from the Bank scene) later on, but it is highly doubtful a new horntail would come along anytime soon. No one told Lego to create it from 125 pieces, considering this is a fan favorite beast from this universe.

I've included the other dragon designs so we may very well point out that Lego has the budget and the skill to create all kinds of dragons. Now, if I just translate what you've said, you agree with me that this dragon is not that good. Only that you want to present it with a very possitive attitude. But following this method, there is no bad sets, everything is just acceptable if we take wider and wider scopes into consideration. As I said I'm not compromising with this.

Thus comes my conclusion, that Lego has dropped behind with folklore dragon designs* after this horntail. It is not good. 

*I'm omitting dragons with brickbuilt heads - like Nexo Knights, Ninjago - as they're too robot/mecha like for me. I need the molded head to get more of an alive feeling from it (but that's just a personal taste).

 

That’s why I said we need to take the wave into consideration. Looking at the wave, I wouldn’t want that set to replace the Clocktower set, which is the price point that could do the dragon justice. If they put it in Hagrid’s Hut place, we wouldn’t have likely gotten Buckbeak, so another no go from me. Maybe the Carriage or Knight Bus could’ve been excluded & done later(but that argument could be used on the dragon). 

Now, my defense of the horntail doesn’t mean I love it. I do like it, for what it is...but I certainly wish it were more. It leaves a lot to be desired. I hope they return to it once they’re done with the initial run of movies & we get something more worthy. 

[Lyichir]

In my opinion the molded head of that Mega dragon looks awful. The standard of detail is so completely different from the entire rest of the build that it looks like someone chopped the head of a completely different action figure off and put it on a blocky dragon body. At least Lego's molded heads tend to match the standard of detail of their models more (with simple shapes, patterns, and textures).

Personally I don't see the problem with brick-built heads on larger dragons, especially if, like Firstbourne above, the eyes are printed to make them a little more emotive. The use of regular bricks helps keep the standard of detail fairly consistent while still allowing for complex, individualized shaping without leaving you with parts that are too specific to ever be useful for anything else. That's not to say I didn't love the Elves dragons, which used molded heads for almost the opposite purpose of that Mega one—to make the heads smooth and curvy to create a kinder, gentler appearance than a head built of a bunch of smaller, more angular parts could allow for.

Honestly, between the dragons in Ninjago and Elves, I don't think Lego's done badly at all with dragons in the past few years. As you mention in your post, older ones like the classic dragons or the ones in the Vikings theme tend to pale in comparison. Is the Horntail the only one you were really dissatisfied with?

Edited February 17, 2020 by Lyichir

[Lego David]

5 hours ago, Lyichir said:

without leaving you with parts that are too specific to ever be useful for anything else.

As I have said before, there is no such thing as a "useless" part. All you need to do is just get more creative when using parts like this. I, for one, do like using prefab/specialized parts in my MOCs, and I don't mind the molded dragon heads. Not only that, but I think they look a lot better than Brick Built heads will ever do. 

 

5 hours ago, Lyichir said:

As you mention in your post, older ones like the classic dragons or the ones in the Vikings theme tend to pale in comparison

Nah, the Vikings Dragons will always be the best. In my opinion, the Ninjago dragons are the ones that actually pale in comparison. 

Sure, there are a few good ones here and there, but most of them are just underwhelming for me. 

Edited February 18, 2020 by Lego David

[Mylenium]

On 2/17/2020 at 5:35 AM, Vindicare said:

I think the Ninjago ones are great.

Let me correct that: Some of them are. Though actually it looks like they're really getting worse and worse due to LEGO trying to trim them down more and more and use less pieces. The latest one from this years gaming/ cyber theme looks just plain terrible and it's construction is pretty naff. The rest is perhaps subject to POV, but if I were seriously into collecting dragons, LEGO would be last on my mind. There's tons of nice (though pricey) collectible sculptures and for what it's worth, indeed the Mega Drogon looks way more realistic than any of LEGO's half-baked attempts at re-creating Smaug and so on...

Mylenium

[Medzomorak]

On 2/17/2020 at 11:00 PM, Lyichir said:

Is the Horntail the only one you were really dissatisfied with?

Nooo...but yes.

I think the Elves ones were good for that category. Sadly they do not represent Medieval dragon tales very well. They're the girlie kid's version and I'm pertty okay with that. I've also liked the Smaug in the molded category, the wings are beautiful and it is quite big. I don't like half of the Ninjago ones because I just get too much mecha feeling from them (I know Peppermint_M have pointed out one that is nicely built and big, but that's again too much a ninja-robot-helicopter vibe for me).

Mainly, I would love to see some truly folklore 4-legged or bipedal dragon (whether a Wyvern is being dragon or not is not my issue at the moment - I personally think it is a mythological subtype), which is not surrounded by robots, ninjacopters, motorbikes and so on.

The fantasy castle dragons were a bit cartoonish +4/Elves category for me. The Vikings were almost the best, but as I've said I hate the Bionicle and Technic parts.

So yes, at the moment I'm only dissatisfied with the Horntail, because that was the best situation to finally create an authentic, really medieval folklore-inspired drake. Rowling borrowed a lof of europian mythological elements and dragons were pretty well represented by her and the movies.

And they've blew it. This Copy company went into the market gap and chose Drogon. And they did not blow it. That's the whole story for me at the moment, yes.

One last thing about the molded head: I want the head to be molded, because dragons are - most of the time - characters as well. Their head is the very root of their character, just imagine the iconical Smaug with brickbuilt head. It may be creative, but won't give the same feeling like an authentic molded one.

Just as parrots, monkeys, horses, elephants, camels, bigfigs, the dragon has to have some molded 'face' so it can be taken as an independent character. For they are quite big I'm not against to give them built body parts, but the head is a crucial part to give it just enough of big Lego figure feeling.

My Ideal Lego Dragon:

I think you either go fully molded like Smaug with positionable wings, or go brickbuilt/hybrid molded-brickbuilt with a molded head similarly to this Lego copy Drogon (which also started as a 1600 pieces MOC design, so you won't convince me it is truly about piece count). Brickbuilt headed ones can stay within Creator without a problem, because that's where character and authenticity is not needed only building... creativeness.

I'd love to see a theme following this more folklore-fantasy dragon direction, like McFarlane's Toys does with their models:

 

Edited February 20, 2020 by Medzomorak

[Lego David]

29 minutes ago, Medzomorak said:

The Vikings were almost the best, but as I've said I hate the Bionicle and Technic parts.

May I ask why? I don't see how the parts used are a problem. On the contrary, the parts that came with those dragons are pretty much beloved by MOCists.

[Medzomorak]

4 hours ago, Lego David said:

May I ask why? I don't see how the parts used are a problem. On the contrary, the parts that came with those dragons are pretty much beloved by MOCists.

Because It was a cheap solution. One of my favorite themes is Vikings, and I've loved the dragon so much as a kid, because they were truly an improvement in size, head design and moveability. But they were lazy to design more system-like dedicated joint parts (like the ones we have today). 

Take the Nidhogg for example:

For seriously. Such a beatuy at first glance. Amazing body design, great head peice and great wings, good scale.

But then I take a look at the neck. It is a damn bionicle leg. I know it is Lego, and Lego is about freedom, but that is not freedom. That is a dedicated bionicle-mechanical leg. Its design is all robotic. I don't remember reading Beowulf or Norse mythology meantioning any mechanical necks going on with those drakes.

Then the claws. Gosh, they even have tiny pneumatic textures. Those are mechanical claws, period. I'd be double freaked out as an norseman warrior seeing a dragon with metal claws.

This was not made by design. This was sparing money by reusing allready existing technic and bionicle elements instead of investing in newer ones. And this is not the adult me talking, I remember saying the same to my brother back in 2005.

So I humbly disagree about better MOCists using those big, static dedicated parts. I think they are mostly Bionicle fans and Technic builders, that is their own style.

This is how prefer a brickbuilt dragon:

And this is what I'm not okay with for System-like sets.

Edited February 18, 2020 by Medzomorak

[Lego David]

57 minutes ago, Medzomorak said:

For seriously. Such a beatuy body design, great head peice and great wings, good scale.

But the neck. It is a damn bionicle leg. I know it is Lego, and Lego is about freedom, but that is not freedom. That is a dedicated bionicle-mechanical leg. Its design is all robotic. I don't remember reading Beowulf or Norse mythology meantioning any mechanical necks going on with those drakes.

The claws. Gosh, they even have tiny pneumatic textures. Those are mechanical claws, period. I'd be double freaked out as an norseman warrior seeing a dragon with metal claws.

This was not made by design. This was sparing money by reusing allready existing technic and bionicle elements instead of investing in newer ones. And this is not the adult me talking, I remember saying the same to my brother back in 2005.

So I humbly disagree about better MOCists using those big, static dedicated parts. I think they are mostly Bionicle fans and Technic builders, that is their own style.

I can see the argument (I am not a fan of the piece used for the neck either, even though I still love the dragon overall) , but the Vkings line had other dragons, such as The Armored Ofnir Dragon:

Even though the parts used here are mostly reused from other lines such as Knight's Kingdom and Bionicle, I think it uses those parts in a really clever way. There was clearly a lot of thought and effort put in designing that dragon, even if the parts are reused. 

Personally, this is probably my favorite Dragon Set LEGO has ever made, period. In my opinion, this is how a LEGO Dragon should look like. 

57 minutes ago, Medzomorak said:

So I humbly disagree about better MOCists using those big, static dedicated parts. I think they are mostly Bionicle fans and Technic builders, that is their own style.

This is how prefer a brickbuilt dragon:

This Dragon MOC uses exactly those type of parts... don't tell me you don't like the way it looks:

 

Edited February 18, 2020 by Lego David

[Medzomorak]

27 minutes ago, Lego David said:

This Dragon MOC uses exactly those type of parts... don't tell me you don't like the way it looks:

I don't like it, I love it!

I just don't want this in a system castle historical/mythological theme.

[Vindicare]

11 hours ago, Mylenium said:

Let me correct that: Some of them are. Though actually it looks like they're really getting worse and worse due to LEGO trying to trim them down more and more and use less pieces. The latest one from this years gaming/ cyber theme looks just plain terrible and it's construction is pretty naff. The rest is perhaps subject to POV, but if I were seriously into collecting dragons, LEGO would be last on my mind. There's tons of nice (though pricey) collectible sculptures and for what it's worth, indeed the Mega Drogon looks way more realistic than any of LEGO's half-baked attempts at re-creating Smaug and so on...

Mylenium

Granted I haven’t bought many, I just own the first wave & the Green Ninja Dragon Mech. I can’t speak to the construction of the others, but they all look pretty interesting(minus the couple low part count ones, can’t do much with that). I actually really like & plan on getting the two gamer ones. They remind me of things out of Digimon, I saw Metalgarurumon in parts of Jay’s. 

Drogon is a whole other beast. As @Peppermint_M said earlier, it’s directed at a different market. Only one Ninjago dragon, in piece count, is even remotely comparable to that one. And despite it’s four heads(which I imagine AFOL’s may find a bit much), its a pretty substantial dragon. 

[TeriXeri]

I'd say this dragon also was pretty nice  but I also like the catapult and sidebuild which could almost fit into medieval times.

70593: The Green NRG Dragon

 

Edited February 18, 2020 by TeriXeri

[Toastie]

10 hours ago, Lego David said:

This Dragon MOC uses exactly those type of parts... don't tell me you don't like the way it looks:

How much is the estimated price using BL parts? Just the sort of not so expensive ones?

It looks to me to be so much more expensive that it seems to me as comparing a tube of mustard with a car of mustang - or am I wrong?

Best
Thorsten

[Mylenium]

13 hours ago, Vindicare said:

I just own the first wave & the Green Ninja Dragon Mech.

I haven't bought that many, either. I usually just browse through the digital instructions and then make up my mind whether it's worth it (and if I can afford it). The green dragon is easily the best of them, though I still wish it was only half as complex as the actual dragon in the movie..

Mylenium