Robert8

LEGO IDEAS - The Medieval Blacksmith

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Quite surprised to see such positive opinions here after the bashing this seems to be getting on Brickset. Glad to see as IMO it looks awesome.

A lot of people seem to confuse “noise”/“randomness” with “detail”.

The original design has lots of random detail, like the roof, and the walls. However there’s not much individual detail to particular sections. From a distance, this probably looks bland, and close up, there’s not really anything contrasting in particular to look at and be surprised by other than an overall effect.

Not to mention much of this randomness is probably super tedious to build and very fragile.

The official set on the other hand has tons of detail - the sign over the forge, the doorways, the various roof tile colours/gradient, the tree. I can’t wait to see the interior. It has plenty of contrast to look good from a distance but also plenty of interesting details to go “aha!” “Ooooh!” When up close. It just feels so full of life and charm.

A lot of people are also complaining that it doesn’t fit with other castle stuff since it’s bright and colourful, not the worn-down “nitty gritty” original. And then they go on to complain it’s shrunken down in size - the original idea would’ve been bigger than half the castles and wouldn’t have fitted at all either!

I prefer brightly coloured sets but can understand people preferring the muted colours of the original. There’s a number of subjective things and I can understand people being disappointed especially when compared to the original (although the overall design is exactly the same apart from the scaling down). But for me? No way am I disappointed; the new model is better IMO and won’t hurt my wallet so much.

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34 minutes ago, sammy_zammy said:

after the bashing this seems to be getting on Brickset.

If you think it's bad there, check out the TBB comments. (Or, y'know, don't.)

I agree with pretty much all of the points you make. I appreciate the complexity and ingenuity of those fragile MOCs that go for the run-down aesthetic, but can't say I'd like to spend time building them. Detailing, yes, love it. Stacking thousands of 1x1 round plates to make mottled stone patterns, not for me. I'm not totally convinced by the roof, but that may be a case of me focusing on the parts rather than being able to step back and look at the whole. 

I've also heard people complain that it's not medieval enough (in what way exactly I'm not sure), but that seems like almost an argument in favor of widespread appeal. Not a castle fan? Change the swords and boom: fantasy/pirates/Victorian/living history blacksmith! Not a fan of pre-industrial metal working? Remove the sign and you get an old house with an outdoor pizza oven or something.

Obviously, it's not perfect, and I don't like the exposed hinges in the dormer window roof, but ye-old-mountain-molehill-rigamarole seems to be back in force. I expect the minifig/animal reveal (if there is one) will create a similar firestorm.

Here's a frightful final thought: KKII tribute interior!

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10 minutes ago, LettuceBrick said:

If you think it's bad there, check out the TBB comments. (Or, y'know, don't.)

Lol I just ventured there. I had no idea people would get so upset over a Lego set! “Not realistic”? “Like Duplo”? I can understand preferring the original, but people are just acting like children (ironically, a children’s toy being made more marketable for children is what they’re complaining about). I think people see what they voted for as really good (which it is), ans anything different as automatically terrible. I don’t know about the AFOL community sometimes, I really don’t...

Edited by sammy_zammy

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1 hour ago, sammy_zammy said:

Lol I just ventured there. I had no idea people would get so upset over a Lego set! “Not realistic”? “Like Duplo”? I can understand preferring the original, but people are just acting like children (ironically, a children’s toy being made more marketable for children is what they’re complaining about). I think people see what they voted for as really good (which it is), ans anything different as automatically terrible. I don’t know about the AFOL community sometimes, I really don’t...

I don't get the DUPLO comments either, this is far from DUPLO. However, I don't think this is a children's toy aimed at children. It is likely to be a 16+ or 18+ set, so an adult aimed toy.

Edited by MAB

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2 minutes ago, MAB said:

I don't get the DUPLO comments either, this is far from DUPLO. However, I don't think this is a children's toy aimed at children. It is likely to be a 16+ or 18+ set, so an adult aimed toy.

Yeah I wasn’t entirely clear. I don’t think they’ve made the changes just to make it more marketable towards children (although I’m sure that’s a Partial factor). But many people seem to think that’s what these changes are doing, exclusively i.e. replacing marketing towards adults

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The thing that annoys me the most is the roof. Why the hell are the trusses exposed on the ends like that without the slates on top of them? Have the designers at LEGO seen any roof ever? Was looking forward to this set so much and this is so disappointing. 

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10 hours ago, Aanchir said:

In real life, older roofs often DO tend to develop darker streaks or stains towards the bottom, usually due to dirt, algae, mildew, and stuff making those shingles darker than they had been originally. So this seems to line up pretty neatly with that. Perhaps the moss and/or lichen growth near the top of the roof might have even helped to soak up moisture from those shingles near the top, preventing algae or mildew from developing up there?

In any case, it definitely doesn't seem like the placement of the various colors was an arbitrary or random decision. Once the set is "officially" unveiled, it'd be neat to hear what sort of references the set designers might have turned to to inform some of those sorts of decisions. By the way, has there been any speculation yet about who the designer for this final version of the set might have been? It doesn't seem to have any obvious "calling cards" for the designers I'm most familiar with, so that's an aspect of the set which is still a complete mystery to me.

Something about the blue sticks out to my eye.  After reading your comments, it dawned on me that moss typically grows in ares with dirt, so starting on gutters, etc. would be the most logical place.  It seems unusual that the dirt would be on the peak of the steepest part of the roof with the most exposure to sunlight (unless that is a north facing side of the building in which case I would expect it to have vines etc. on it and a wholly dirty roof).  I would think that it would grow in the corners of the dormers.  I think I will modify my version to have some olive small limbs extend over some roof tiles to try and make it more appealing to my eye.  Regardless, I think that they did a good job making the flatter portion of the roof darker, since, as you say, it is likely dirtier.

Hopefully this sells well and encourages TLG to make a new Castle line!

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1 minute ago, Lord Insanity said:

It is actually quite common for lichens to grow at the roof peak and work down on slate roof..

 

Moss can do that on slate roof too.

 

Notice in your second picture that the moss is growing from the ends of the shingles where the dirt gathers.  Can't really see the top picture very well.  After it grows a lot it' hard to see where it started.

Edited by Grover

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Lichens do come in multiple colors.  The most common lichen color I see on roofs around me looks like copper corrosion color. (sand green was originally created for the Statue of Liberty after all)  Moss also likes to start growing on lichens so I would say the Blacksmith Shop looks exactly right.

(If you follow the link for the below image you have to scroll down past the treatment options to find the hi-res original)

gallery_image_0025.jpg&f=1&nofb=1

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That picture does a great job illustrating how the lichens/moss/whatever begins growing in the low spots and how the low spots are darker (presumably due to the dirt etc.).  They did a good job on the blacksmith roof making the lower slope darker.  Something about the bright blue next to the lichen/moss/whatever doesn't look right to me since the lichen/moss/whatever seems to grow in the dirty areas.  Maybe the seam of the top of the roof gathered dirt and made it grow, I don't know.  In any case, I didn't recognize the green as moss.  It looked too regular and out of place to me, and only after someone mentioned it did I say "Yeah, maybe".  I think I'll replace some of the green there with various small olive limbs.

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12 hours ago, Roebuck said:

Oh gosh, I can't believe that didn't occur to me! A lot of refinements he's made to the original model's architectural details (like the stonework on the ground floor or the timber framing on the upper floors) are totally in line with the sort of amazing medieval-inspired builds he's worked on for other themes like Elves and Harry Potter. Hopefully next time there's any sort of full medieval or medieval fantasy type theme he gets assigned to work on it, because I have no doubt he'd be able to bring all sorts of amazing new innovations to the table!

11 hours ago, Aurore said:

I personaly prefer the set to the original.
The overall shape of the building looks more harmonious with the added curved details, and I love the colors of the roof. It reminds me of (but is less elaborate than) the polychrome roofs of some 15th century buildings.

I'd honestly never heard of polychrome roofs before reading this post, but I just did a Google search for "polychrome roofs 15th century" and… dang! *oh2* Those are way more elaborate than anything I'd have ever imagined seeing on a building from back then. And that's especially embarrassing for me, since I've definitely seen fictional examples that I suppose completely escaped my notice, like the roofs in Rivendell from The Lord of the Rings. looking at images of some of the movie miniatures, the official LEGO rendition of those roofs in 79006 looks downright mundane by comparison!

I guess this sort of goes to show that there are still plenty of pop-culture based cliches and stereotypes about historical architecture I have yet to "unlearn". It's definitely great to realize just how many different historical styles are out there to look to as MOC inspiration. Even if more ostentatious styles like this might be tricky to work into MOCs without it distracting from or clashing with other elements of the build, it'd definitely be a great accomplishment for any builder who manages to pull that off successfully!

4 hours ago, Lord Insanity said:

It is actually quite common for lichens to grow at the roof peak and work down on slate roof..

Moss can do that on slate roof too.

4 hours ago, Lord Insanity said:

Lichens do come in multiple colors.  The most common lichen color I see on roofs around me looks like copper corrosion color. (sand green was originally created for the Statue of Liberty after all)  Moss also likes to start growing on lichens so I would say the Blacksmith Shop looks exactly right.

(If you follow the link for the below image you have to scroll down past the treatment options to find the hi-res original)

These are some fantastic comparison images! Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge. If it weren't for all the stuff I've been able to learn from these sorts of discussions I'd probably be even more hopeless at coming up with ideas for historic-inspired models or building techniques. I have a downright embarrassing number of "work-in-progress" LEGO Elves or Castle MOCs on Stud.io that I keep going back and forth on, with no idea of what my next steps should be to get them closer to completion. :blush:

8 hours ago, LettuceBrick said:

If you think it's bad there, check out the TBB comments. (Or, y'know, don't.)

Haha, just earlier this morning the size of the comment thread on The Brothers Brick's Facebook page and nope'd right out of there before I was tempted to read even a single comment. I have a hard enough time resisting the temptation to waste hours on those sorts of heated discussions as it is! And if the past is any indication, a lot of people are probably just in that initial "shock" phase and are likely to warm up to the set in the long run regardless of anything comments I make (or don't make).

18 minutes ago, Grover said:

That picture does a great job illustrating how the lichens/moss/whatever begins growing in the low spots and how the low spots are darker (presumably due to the dirt etc.).  They did a good job on the blacksmith roof making the lower slope darker.  Something about the bright blue next to the lichen/moss/whatever doesn't look right to me since the lichen/moss/whatever seems to grow in the dirty areas.  Maybe the seam of the top of the roof gathered dirt and made it grow, I don't know.  In any case, I didn't recognize the green as moss.  It looked too regular and out of place to me, and only after someone mentioned it did I say "Yeah, maybe".  I think I'll replace some of the green there with various small olive limbs.

While I don't mind the bright blue myself, I wonder how the set would look if you swapped those Bright Blue shingles with Sand Blue ones. The 2x3 pentagonal tile piece does come in Sand Blue (albeit only in one set, the Brick Bank), and it'd certainly be a very plausible color for slate shingles. My biggest worry with that is whether the transition between Sand Blue and Earth Blue would feel too stark or abrupt compared to the transition from Bright Blue to Earth Blue to Black. Plus, it'd reduce the contrast between the lichen/moss and the bare roof shingles, and it's a little hard to picture in my head whether that would enhance or detract from the overall look.

Edited by Aanchir

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7 minutes ago, Aanchir said:

While I don't mind the bright blue myself, I wonder how the set would look if you swapped those Bright Blue shingles with Sand Blue ones. The 2x3 pentagonal tile piece does come in Sand Blue (albeit only in one set, the Brick Bank), and it'd certainly be a very plausible color for slate shingles. My biggest worry with that is whether the transition between Sand Blue and Earth Blue would feel too stark or abrupt compared to the transition from Bright Blue to Earth Blue to Black. Plus, it'd reduce the contrast between the lichen/moss and the bare roof shingles, and it's a little hard to picture in my head whether that would enhance or detract from the overall look.

I thought the same thing.  If sand blue and LBG were used it would be OK, but I think the sand blue is just too light compared to the dark blue to make a good transition.  I'm thinking that putting some of the small limb pieces over the blue tiles will help the transition and add more texture.  I wish the limbs came in sand green though!

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Here is my .02 It doesn't look that much like the MOC that i actually think it seems like 2 different sets almost. I could literally buy both sets at a store and not feel like i was duplicating purchases.

On that note i love the design and since i am a castle fanatic i will purchase any set that is able to give me that crack fix.

I probably will modify the chimney to match the MOC more though.

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1 hour ago, natesroom said:

Here is my .02 It doesn't look that much like the MOC that i actually think it seems like 2 different sets almost. I could literally buy both sets at a store and not feel like i was duplicating purchases.

On that note i love the design and since i am a castle fanatic i will purchase any set that is able to give me that crack fix.

I probably will modify the chimney to match the MOC more though.

Interesting perspective! While I wouldn't ordinarily describe this and the original project as looking like "two different sets" due to the overwhelming similarities in the layout and color scheme, I do feel like there's a valid comparison to be made between the changes in this and some other Ideas sets and the updates or re-imaginings to stuff like, say, the recent "Legacy" versions of certain Ninjago sets from past years.

As an example, compare this year's X-1 Ninja Charger to the 2014 version. Structurally, the core elements are all intact. Both represent a very sleek, futuristic red muscle car with a front scoop, an "escape bike" that can be deployed by opening up the hood/bonnet, an angular rear spoiler, a rear missile turret, and various gold blade-like accents which tend to be pretty much standard for that theme's ninja vehicles. But there are also some considerable changes in the newer version — replacing the skinny grille and tiny headlights with a much wider light strip across the front, adding lengthwise black "racing stripes" to the top and sides of the body, and changing the proportions of the bike fairing to give it a smaller tail fairing and a wider, curvier front cowling.

The end result is a design that is clearly based on the original and retains most of its defining characteristics, but with enough differences that it can be more accurately described as a updated or re-imagined version of the original which brings a few new ideas to the table, rather than just an attempt to recreate/replicate the earlier design as closely as possible using an updated palette of parts or techniques.

In hindsight, it's also possible that my background as a Bionicle fan has also led me to be pretty forgiving about changes between different versions of a particular subject! I mean, that was a theme where we were expected to recognize that 8584, 8730, and 8912 were the same character from different points on the same timeline. Needless to say, LEGO has gotten a LOT better since then at redesigning subject matter in a way that still clearly acknowledges previous versions of that subject, whether it's characters, buildings, or vehicles.

I don't mean to imply that I or anybody else should just look past changes we don't like because "think of how much worse it could be!" But rather, having had to adjust to so many design changes that often felt downright arbitrary or inexplicable, and that had only the vaguest or subtlest "through-lines" between newer and older versions of the same subject, I think it's easier for me to appreciate even more extensive changes to a particular subject as long as I can generally follow along with what sort of thought process would have informed those changes.

Edited by Aanchir

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For anyone just joining the thread recently and reading the all the comments above, listen to them! Listen to the people here. And do not, I repeat do not leave Eurobricks and go read those other comments. You will need a mind cleansing. In case of necessary mind cleansing consume ~3 shots of liquor and one beer.

Anyway, as one of the 10k supporters I think this is fantastic. The original was great, the collaboration with Lego Ideas designers refinement is great and I can't wait to see more photos. Also when's this come out? Cause I may have needed that mind cleansing and there's two Historic Themes forums.

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13 hours ago, natesroom said:

Here is my .02 It doesn't look that much like the MOC that i actually think it seems like 2 different sets almost. I could literally buy both sets at a store and not feel like i was duplicating purchases.

 

I agree wholeheartedly


Also, it seems to me that final model is on the same scale of Medieval Market Village, where it can added to this set. Does anybody agree?    

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1 hour ago, Another Brick In The Wall said:

I agree wholeheartedly


Also, it seems to me that final model is on the same scale of Medieval Market Village, where it can added to this set. Does anybody agree?    

I doubt that was the reasoning from lego, as they don't really care about compatibility with sets that have not been available for a decade.

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3 hours ago, Another Brick In The Wall said:

Also, it seems to me that final model is on the same scale of Medieval Market Village, where it can added to this set.

Not sure, I think it is a little bigger, but that they will look OK together. It is more that it is in scale with previous castle sets I believe, the original was a lot bigger than any castle set :shrug_oh_well:

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6 hours ago, MAB said:

I doubt that was the reasoning from lego, as they don't really care about compatibility with sets that have not been available for a decade.

Maybe not, but I suspect that both sets were probably designed to be roughly comparable to other "minifig scale" builds of their time, and while the definition for that can vary a bit between different themes or different types of model (like, say, cars vs. trains), it's otherwise stayed pretty consistent for the past decade and a half. Which is a bit of a comfort, given how many fears there were in the early years of LEGO City that the recent increases in scale among stuff like trucks, cars, buses, and planes would become a "slippery slope", or that the exaggerated scale of vehicles in themes like Agents and Racers would end up spilling over to other, more "conventional" themes.

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I don't get it.  How are AFOLs so terrible at casually assessing the scale of a Lego build from pictures?  Look at the side by side comparison picture at the top of this brickset article.   The final design had the terrain significantly reduced but the building itself has not been significantly reduced.  Count the studs and bricks.  The chimney is still 4 studs by 4 studs, the steps are still 2 studs by 5 studs, the windows are still 4 studs x 3 bricks.  The roof peak is 24 studs long.  The buildings in the Medieval Market Village are only 16 studs by 16 studs.  Both the original and the final Blacksmith Shop have a similar volume as both Medieval Market Village buildings combined.  I seriously can't figure out why everyone seems to think the Blacksmith Shop has been downsized by any significant margin.  *huh*

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19 hours ago, koalayummies said:

For anyone just joining the thread recently and reading the all the comments above, listen to them! Listen to the people here. And do not, I repeat do not leave Eurobricks and go read those other comments. You will need a mind cleansing. In case of necessary mind cleansing consume ~3 shots of liquor and one beer.

 

I'm usually a big Negative Nancy, but people are judging this without seeing the complete set.  

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Despite the “A” in AFOL, many of them seem to act like children with this controversy ? if you can even call it that. Both sets are great and yea it’s a little different but nothing that deserves more than like a single post with some disappointment. 

Edited by Modal

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Does anyone think the contrast is bumped way up on this due to it being basically a button on a website designed to catch the eye?

It reminds me of the Ideas Tree House set which a lot of people railed against when it was announced due to the colour scheme.

After building the Tree House I realised it looked a lot more muted in real life and was structurally closer to the submission than I realised. 


Apart from my first impression that this looks a little too much like an Elves set, it has really grown on me. The submission was great, but would have clashed enormously in scale and design next to something like the Medieval Market Village. This could just about pull off being in the same universe as the Kingdoms era sets. 
 

I think sammy_zammy summed up a lot of my feelings in his above post.

On 1/2/2021 at 10:29 PM, sammy_zammy said:

 

Edited by bigginsd

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