"Reverse engineering" Razor Crest MOC

[Midlife-crisis]

 

Decided to rebuild Richboyjhae´s Razor Crest, he did a really great model, with a few issues i like to build "different" hopefully better. Especially the tail and a few covers around the ship, also i think his engines are great but

a little bit too big - will do more research and measurement on this topic. Some connections he used won´t work with LDD...

 

Started from scratch 2 days ago with his fotos, and some pictures out of the mandalorian episodes.

 

 

 

Edited November 17, 2020 by Midlife-crisis

[Brick-Wombat]

Speaking of the engines, will the new 3x3 fender pieces from the X-Wing 75273 work at this scale? They seem destined for the Razor Crest!

Image from BobDeQuatre's Flickr.

Spoiler

 

 

[Kristof]

@Midlife-crisis off to the good start! Mind you linking the original? I can't find it by name somehow...

@Brick-Wombat I think they would need to grow quite a bit! :D Though, frankly, I think you are right and I would totally use those and just match the scale to them.

[Brick-Wombat]

@Kristof Yep, 6x6 diameter engines would be too small. Anxious to see someone utilize them at some point on an appropriate scale!

Original designer's Flickr in spoiler below. 

 

Spoiler

 

 

 

[Midlife-crisis]

Hello,

yes 6x6 is too small. But those are great parts!

here are 2 pictures, i think they show where his design has some light flaws, but no offence to him, he did a great work overall!

 

 

So the engines are a bit out of proportion maybe 1 stud in diameter too big, 1stud too short, and the upperside of the body seems to be a bit too wide.

Edited February 4, 2020 by Midlife-crisis

[Kristof]

it looks to me like the model is just squished lengthwise... quite considerably, that is. Any chance that the reference picture has some weird aspect ratio distortion going on? I personally like the longer/narrower design much better, but maybe some other photos of the on-screen ship make it look chubbier? :D

[Midlife-crisis]

checked some images now - the tail of his model as a few flaws.

The slope isn´t correct thats why it look "to short" overall.

 

some tail details - longer and a bit sleeker - also the engines should be a little bit longer, maybe the proportion is correct after that.

[macaron35]

my god, this scene on his flickr is just amazing

I'm drooling...

 

[Midlife-crisis]

some steps forward - tail still nee some rework but overall the proportion should fit better now.

 

[Ellisss_2]

Proportions are looking much better, keep up the good work!

[Midlife-crisis]

Thank you!

I work on the engines right now - they are definetely too big with 12stud diameter and around 5studs too short.

But nevertheless his air inlets are spot on. Partcount now 2997

 

[jdubbs]

I don't mean to be rude but have you considered buying the instructions from Richboyjhae and modding them to your taste, rather than effectively stealing his design via reverse-engineering? Given how much effort you're putting into recreating his design, it should be clear to you that he put in exponentially more work to design it from scratch. Work that is worthy of compensation, don't you think?

 

[icm]

33 minutes ago, jdubbs said:

I don't mean to be rude but have you considered buying the instructions from Richboyjhae and modding them to your taste, rather than effectively stealing his design via reverse-engineering? Given how much effort you're putting into recreating his design, it should be clear to you that he put in exponentially more work to design it from scratch. Work that is worthy of compensation, don't you think?

I disagree.  If you're reverse-engineering someone else's build without buying the instructions, you should definitely give credit to the original builder when presenting your own model, but you're not "stealing the design" if you don't pay.  In the Lego community, we share and share alike.  If everybody started demanding (or thinking they deserved) payment for every time someone else liked their model enough to build it without instructions, the online community where we're happy to post pictures of our builds and see pictures of other people's builds would quickly collapse.  Nobody could afford to post MOCs except those who set themselves up as merchants like BrickVault.  Nobody could afford to build anything either.  It's entirely fair for @Midlife-crisis to build his own Razor Crest reverse-engineered from Jhaelego's model.  Goodness knows Midlife-crisis is putting in enough work on his own to make the model his own.

[Midlife-crisis]

Yes and no, in the beginning i used his design and pictures as starting point, but the changes are way beyond his model right now, it is 85% midlife-crisis 15% richboyjhae. In the end it will be more like 95% vs. 5%.

It´s the same ship, but not the same model any more.

 

 

 

6 minutes ago, icm said:

I disagree.  If you're reverse-engineering someone else's build without buying the instructions, you should definitely give credit to the original builder when presenting your own model, but you're not "stealing the design" if you don't pay.  In the Lego community, we share and share alike.  If everybody started demanding (or thinking they deserved) payment for every time someone else liked their model enough to build it without instructions, the online community where we're happy to post pictures of our builds and see pictures of other people's builds would quickly collapse.  Nobody could afford to post MOCs except those who set themselves up as merchants like BrickVault.  Nobody could afford to build anything either.  It's entirely fair for @Midlife-crisis to build his own Razor Crest reverse-engineered from Jhaelego's model.  Goodness knows Midlife-crisis is putting in enough work on his own to make the model his own.

Thank you!

 

[jdubbs]

13 minutes ago, icm said:

If everybody started demanding (or thinking they deserved) payment for every time someone else liked their model enough to build it without instructions, the online community where we're happy to post pictures of our builds and see pictures of other people's builds would quickly collapse.  Nobody could afford to post MOCs except those who set themselves up as merchants like BrickVault.  Nobody could afford to build anything either. 

Dude. No one said anything about demanding payment. The "community would collapse" because someone charges for instructions? Seriously? Might be a tad overdramatic there. 

1 minute ago, Midlife-crisis said:

Yes and no, in the beginning i used his design and pictures as starting point, but the changes are way beyond his model right now, it is 85% midlife-crisis 15% richboyjhae. In the end it will be more like 95% vs. 5%.

It´s the same ship, but not the same model any more.

That sounds a lot more worthwhile than reverse-engineering with a few mods. Look forward to seeing where you end up.

[icm]

1 hour ago, jdubbs said:

... have you considered buying the instructions from Richboyjhae and modding them to your taste, rather than effectively stealing his design via reverse-engineering?

You did say something about payment.  Perhaps I should not have used the word "demand."  That was too dramatic.  But you should not have used the word "steal."  That was too dramatic.

Edited February 8, 2020 by icm

[jdubbs]

5 minutes ago, icm said:

You did say something about payment.  Perhaps I should not have used the word "demand."  That was too dramatic.  But you should not have used the word "steal."  That was too dramatic.

I only said that maybe he should consider paying for it, rather than spending the considerable effort reverse-engineering it. Saves him time/effort and compensates the original designer.

As for "stealing", that may not be what Midlife is doing, but it's kinda what it sounded like he was doing, from the thread title and his first post. Would someone be within their legalistic rights to take a model, reverse-engineer it (even exactly as-is, no mods), and not pay for it? Sure. Would it necessarily be the right thing to do? I would argue, notsomuch. And as I suggested in my subsequent post, there is a big difference between that and referencing an existing design, using it as a starting point, and building something new, which is what it sounds like Midlife is actually doing. (I have certainly done the same).

[Brick-Wombat]

I really like where you're going with this @Midlife-crisis! Proportions are looking great.

[Midlife-crisis]

Thank you @Brick-Wombat!

The Engines will need some time but, i made some big steps today!

Comparison between 12.5stud diameter engine and 11.5stud - i use the 11.5.

 

[brobert]

On 2/8/2020 at 6:33 PM, jdubbs said:

I don't mean to be rude but have you considered buying the instructions from Richboyjhae and modding them to your taste, rather than effectively stealing his design via reverse-engineering? Given how much effort you're putting into recreating his design, it should be clear to you that he put in exponentially more work to design it from scratch. Work that is worthy of compensation, don't you think

 

 This whole debate of MOC builders charging for their designs of existing vehicles is pointless, and I for one never understood how they can do this. Yes, the solutions how they build something might be unique to them, but in the end they build something based on an IP that belongs again to somebody else, so if the Mighty Mouse Company decides to crack down on them the same way they did with people who crochet Baby Yodas, no one can say a word.

This is a hobby. Doesn't matte rhow much of your own time you decide to dedicate to it, don't pretend it's a job. If someone wants to make money of it, they can go work for TLG. On the other hand, right, if some people are willing to pay for it, it's a business model already.

But to be a bit less off-topic, I can't wait to see how this one turns out, this ship was quite generic to my eyes in the beginning, but much like the characters in the series, I've really grown to like it. 

And even though Richboyjhae's design is pretty solid, it's definitely off with most of the proportions. But then again, it's a pretty challenging ship to build in LEGO for sure.

[jdubbs]

2 hours ago, brobert said:

 This whole debate of MOC builders charging for their designs of existing vehicles is pointless, and I for one never understood how they can do this. Yes, the solutions how they build something might be unique to them, but in the end they build something based on an IP that belongs again to somebody else, so if the Mighty Mouse Company decides to crack down on them the same way they did with people who crochet Baby Yodas, no one can say a word.

This is a hobby. Doesn't matte rhow much of your own time you decide to dedicate to it, don't pretend it's a job. If someone wants to make money of it, they can go work for TLG. On the other hand, right, if some people are willing to pay for it, it's a business model already.

I for one don't understand why people are more than willing to give money to a massive, privately-owned corporation but draw some kind of idealistic line in the sand when it comes to supporting your fellow builder. If giving the designer of a really good MOC $10 or $20 keeps him in the hobby and encourages him/her to create more really good MOCs, I'm all for it.

As you point out, it is a hobby. It's also an insanely expensive one, that a huge chunk of people cannot afford to sustain. If some super-talented 15 year old kid wants to help finance that UCS set he's longing for, or if some 20-something living in his parents' basement and working at Ikea wants to eat something other than Swedish meatballs once a week, is there really anything wrong with them selling custom-made instructions to do so?

As for "going to work at LEGO", well, sure. But a) not many of us can uproot our lives/families and move to Denmark; b) it's not like LEGO, even as big as it is, can hire all of us; and c) the sad truth is that LEGO isn't putting out the sets that most MOCers want to see made... Barring some retail store exclusive or a surprise mystery set, there won't be an official Razor Crest any time soon, for instance. The only way we'd get many of the designs we do is via MOCers, who are effectively filling a void in the market left by LEGO's insistence on releasing yet another landspeeder/snowspeeder/falcon.

I apologize if this is derailing the thread. I do support Midlife's efforts to design a better Crest, and if at the end of that process he decides to create and sell instructions for it, more power to him. If he opts to give it away instead, well... lucky us. 

Edited February 14, 2020 by jdubbs

[icm]

14 minutes ago, jdubbs said:

I for one don't understand why people are more than willing to give money to a massive, privately-owned corporation but draw some kind of idealistic line in the sand when it comes to supporting your fellow builder. If giving the designer of a really good MOC $10 or $20 keeps him in the hobby and encourages him/her to create more really good MOCs, I'm all for it.

The line in the sand, for me, is when you suggest that a fellow builder is actively in the wrong for not buying instructions from a source of inspiration, and when you suggest that reverse-engineering a fellow fan's model without paying for instructions is akin to stealing.  That was the clear message I got from your first post suggesting that instructions be bought from Jhaelego for the privilege of reverse-engineering his model and improving upon it.  That may not have been the message you intended to send.  I also believe that it's a good thing to buy instructions for a model you want to build, so as to support the hobby and support fellow builders in the hobby.  I do not believe it is stealing to copy a MOC without paying for instructions, as long as you still give credit where credit is due.

16 minutes ago, jdubbs said:

If some super-talented 15 year old kid wants to help finance that UCS set he's longing for, or if some 20-something living in his parents' basement and working at Ikea wants to eat something other than Swedish meatballs once a week, is there really anything wrong with them selling custom-made instructions to do so?

There's nothing wrong with that.  But there's nothing wrong with another 20-something living in his parents' basement and working at IKEA trying to build the models of the first 20-something from the posted pictures without paying for the instructions.

Edited February 14, 2020 by icm

[jdubbs]

8 minutes ago, icm said:

The line in the sand, for me, is when you suggest that a fellow builder is actively in the wrong for not buying instructions from a source of inspiration, and when you suggest that reverse-engineering a fellow fan's model without paying for instructions is akin to stealing.  That was the clear message I got from your first post suggesting that instructions be bought from Jhaelego for the privilege of reverse-engineering his model and improving upon it. 

I did clarify this already, perhaps you missed it.

I asked why Midlife-Crisis didn't just buy the instructions: first, to save himself the considerable time and effort he was putting into reverse-engineering it; and second, at a point when it looked like he was doing less in the way of redesigning and more in the way of tweaking. Because, if you're just intending to build the MOC and change a few details, yeah I do believe you should compensate the designer for their talent and work, if that's what they ask... it's the "support-your-fellow-moc'er" point.

Seeing as Midlife affirmed he is doing much more than just tweaking, I admit the suggestion that he was "stealing" doesn't rightfully apply, and I certainly support his choice to use it as inspiration, whether he buys the instructions or not. As I said, I likely wouldn't buy someone else's instructions either, if I were designing my own version. But on the other hand, if Midlife-Crisis or Jhaelego or some other designer creates a MOC that I would be happy with more or less as-is, and they opt to sell instructions for it, I would also readily pay for those instructions, because I think that's only fair.

34 minutes ago, icm said:

There's nothing wrong with that.  But there's nothing wrong with another 20-something living in his parents' basement and working at IKEA trying to build the models of the first 20-something from the posted pictures without paying for the instructions.

True, not everyone can afford to buy instructions for every MOC out there. And the instructions for this particular MOC are priced a bit steep... but then, it seems if you're able to afford the several-thousand parts needed to build that MOC, you would probably be able to scratch together enough for the instructions too?

[STARHAWK]

@Midlife-crisis

will you share the final instructions or LDD file for free then ?

I have purchased the instructions from Richboyjhae, but still did not started the build, maybe i can the follow your instructions instead.

I noticed right away that his build is a bit short on the back, but to his credit, he created that build long before the show completely started - think he was the first to presented a true UCS style version of that ship

For your build:

1) Are u able to remove the tr-clear bricks that are holding the ship to help distribute the weight ? Will it stand just on the landing gear (without a transparent support) ?

2) will u try to do a glass cockpit ? On his solution there is no glass which irritates me a bit :) He mentioned someone created a kind of solution (have to ask him for the picture)

 

 

[Midlife-crisis]

Good evening @STARHAWK, first i was tempted to buy his instructions also but i noticed this stability issue and now i´m trying to do better.
As you said, he designed the first UCS size model at an early time.

1) My intention is yes - but i´m not sure if i can achieve this goal as the built is really heavy!

I made a technic support on the walls - similar to the pillars shown in interior shots of the Razor Crest. Those supports are connected to the landing gear but the whole construction rests on 2 4L axles in the end of the day.

 

2) No, but i already have a plan for a more aesthetic solution.

There are no plans to sell or publish the LDD Files.