danth

German Toy Fair – LEGO To Increase Focus On AFOLs

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7 hours ago, Lego David said:

I am pretty sure TLG doesn't actually understand what a true AFOL is. That's why they focus their AFOL-Targeted sets on things that would normally appeal to a casual adult that also happens to like LEGO, but doesn't actively follow with the brand. Things like the Old Trafford Stadium, Harley Davidson etc, aren't things AFOLs like us would buy, but rather things a casual adult that appreciates LEGO, but isn't a fan would buy. 

If people keep making their own definition of who is and who isn't AFOL , that isn't going to help a lot.

7 hours ago, Lego David said:

If only they checked out sites like this one, where actual AFOLs are, I am pretty sure they'd get a better idea of what we actually want and would be willing to buy. I think this would be a good way for them to gather information about what AFOL-Targeted products to release, but for whatever reason, they don't do it.

So yeah, TLG is very disconnected from it's fans, and doesn't even know what an actual "AFOL" is. They'd better improve in that area if they don't want to loose us.

Also there are many different types of AFOL, it's not set in stone what an AFOL set is.

There is no what "we" want. 

  • AFOL A might not care about Star Wars, and love City sets.
  • AFOL B might love Harry Potter and Minecraft, but not care about Creator 
  • AFOL C just uses Bricks & Pieces and Bricklink
  • AFOL D just collects Pirate Ships
  • AFOL E collects only blue torso CMF Figures
  • AFOL F doesn't buy any sets with flesh skin-tone figures
  • etc.

And there are posts on this forum trying to shut down people's wishlists / ideas , not very useful info to LEGO if people are bickering over other people's wishes.

 

LEGO has their own LEGO Ambassador Network site, the Embassy section on this forum was removed very recently as it wasn't used for that anymore.

https://lan.lego.com/aboutus/overview/

Quoting LEGO:

Today, adults around the world use LEGO bricks as a creative medium. Some build at home with friends and family while others participate in an adult LEGO culture where you meet up and share your passion with other builders. If you are building and creating with LEGO bricks as an adult, you might not even realize it, you are an Adult Fan of LEGO (AFOL)!

The LEGO Group recognizes this fan base and has a department that engages with and represents adult fans. Members of the LEGO Group’s “AFOL Engagement Team” help fan creations become real LEGO sets through LEGO Ideas, assist with finding opportunities for local community engagement, connect fans through a network of other adult fans, and provide a place to learn from LEGO fan communities from around the world.

We also recognize certain LEGO User Groups, LEGO Online Communities and LEGO Fan Media outlets and provide these communities additional support. Each recognized LEGO community also has a community Ambassador who has additional access to communicate directly with the AFOL Engagement Team and work with other community Ambassadors from around the world in the Forum.

Edited by TeriXeri

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1 hour ago, TeriXeri said:

There is no what "we" want. 

I personally fall into C, D and F and that was a really truncated list of possibilities.
Brandon (pooda) and myself probably have very little overlap but I don't doubt he is an AFOL. I can't care less about City (unless it's to rob specialty bricks and animals) but he lives and breathes City.

I can see where David is starting from but I think he is drawing the wrong conclusion.

In a round-about way, Teddy may become more of an AFOL than me. If TLG keeps starving me of Pirates and Castle but continues to put out Technic Cars.

It happened to me with Star Wars. I was a Super-Fan for decades, I'm a retired member of the 501st and Mandalorian Mercs Costume groups, I own every single novel written until the Disney Takeover and most of the graphic novels. At this point I have re-trained my entire family to NOT buy me SW stuff, as I no longer consider myself a Fan. I only like Rogue One, A new hope, Empire and half of Return of the Jedi. The entire rest I consider hot garbage. Star Wars turned away from what I loved about it. There is a chance that TLG will do the same. Constraction fans, especially Bionicle fans, might argue that it already happened to some of us.

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I

Just now, Masked Mini said:

I personally fall into C, D and F and that was a really truncated list of possibilities.
Brandon (pooda) and myself probably have very little overlap but I don't doubt he is an AFOL. I can't care less about City (unless it's to rob specialty bricks and animals) but he lives and breathes City.

It was just a random example list of how wide the range of people could be, and that list was even still short, not really putting specific forum people into boxes :classic:

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I did it to illustrate your point. There are many, many facets of being a "true" AFOL to the point that it is difficult to find a demarcation line.

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@Masked Mini I am an AFOL. Just because I love City, doesn't mean I'm a child. I'll admit, I am abrasive a lot. But that's only because of what @TeriXeri said down here. 

4 hours ago, TeriXeri said:

And there are posts on this forum trying to shut down people's wishlists / ideas , not very useful info to LEGO if people are bickering over other people's wishes.

 

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I think there is a distinction between an AFOL and an adult who will occasionally buy licensed Lego if it's from a movie/show they enjoy. 

The latter is not really a fan of Lego per se. 

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5 hours ago, TeriXeri said:

If you are building and creating with LEGO bricks as an adult, you might not even realize it, you are an Adult Fan of LEGO (AFOL)!

I thought I was becoming increasingly lost in this discussion (I mean the who is what and who isn't bit). But then:

This AFOL thing has been precisely clarified by TLG (as the citation above is from @TeriXeri who in turn found that on TLG premises):

  1. Building with LEGO = buy/get a box, build the model + older than 18 in the EU (older than 23 in the US) = AFOL
  2. Creating with LEGO = buy/get a box, build everything upside down + same as above = AFOL
  3. Don't realize that a) you bought/got the box and b) don't realize that you got it all wrong + same as above = AFOL.

So whenever you have at least two LEGO pieces that you arrange in a creative way, and you are an adult, you are an AFOL. Even if you don't realize it.

That was easy, wasn't it; we don't want to argue with The Creators of the AFOLs, do we?

BTW: Although I may not realize it: I do buy entire (small) boxes only for >selected< pieces (and use the remaining trash for other things I am building or will build - who knows, what comes to mind), buy Technic, Mindstorms, PuP, City, Friends (as in not F*R*I*E*N*D*S:wink:, i.e. the pink stuff), MiniFigs, Polybags, Ideas boxes, entire baseplates(!!! Even in white !!!), Starwars, 3 in 1, Disney crap other than SW, stupid boxes, funny stuff,  do BL, tell people to get me LEGO for my birthday, for Christmas, the weekend, weekday, lunch, breakfast, dinner, and whenever they see fit ... 

As far as this discussion goes, it appears that at least 90% of my activities qualify me as NAFOL.

As far as TLG's definition goes - even if you guys or I don't realize it - I am an AFOL: An Alien Fanatic Of the Lunatics.

:laugh_hard::laugh_hard::laugh_hard: (all this was meant to be funny, just to make sure)

Best wishes,
Thorsten

 

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1 hour ago, Masked Mini said:

I did it to illustrate your point. There are many, many facets of being a "true" AFOL to the point that it is difficult to find a demarcation line.

I'd take this one step further and say that the only demarcation line that matters is whether or not we, as individual chose to embrace the label.  It is not for me to judge who is or isn't a "true" AFOL.  It is for each of us to decide, "am I an AFOL or not?" and for the rest of us to respect that decision.  I have a friend who is an avid collector of all things Star Wars and has nearly all of the UCS models under glass in his collection and a second copy of each kept mint in sealed boxes - but he doesn't consider himself an AFOL because the fact that they are Lego mean nothing to him.  He identifies as a fan of Star Wars, not Lego despite having spent thousands of dollars buying and hundreds of hours assembling kits.  I know someone else who doesn't own any Lego (his mom gave away his disused collection when he went off to college years earlier) but he loved the Lego movie, loved Nathan's Art of the Brick exhibit, goes to adult night at the Lego Discovery Center just to see the models and is a regular visitor at BrickFair events.  He doesn't build, he doesn't collect, but he loves seeing other people's MOCs and considers himself an AFOL (or as he puts it "An executive AFOL")   TLG isn't making any money off of him (at least not compared to what they got from my Star Wars Fan friend) but he cares much more about the brand and the AFOL community - who am I to say who's the "real" AFOL and who isn't?

Drawing such lines in the sand is never good for a community.  I'm older than dirt (even have the badge) so I remember when sci-fi wasn't cool and there was no Star Wars (Lego or otherwise).  The Sci-fi community in those days was a very accepting place; it didn't matter if you were a fan of Dr Who, or The Time Tunnel, or Captain Scarlet, or Star Trek, or Outer Limits; (we didn't really even notice if you were gay, straight, black, white, Quaker or atheist for that matter) there were so few of us and we were so far outside the popular mainstream that we couldn't afford to dismiss anyone who wanted to join the club.  The success of Star Wars really changed that.  Good natured debates and hypothetical mash-ups devolved into nasty and derisive bids for "elite, true fan" status.  In a fairly short period of time the fan community fractured (or at least the parts that I saw did) and went from being a generally open, accepting, safe place for people who like Sci-Fi to divided camps of people more interested in belittling other peoples' taste in sci-fi rather than celerating the genre and elevating the community as a whole.  And that was BEFORE we had web forums to actively flame and troll each other.  So, I'm always VERY CAUTIOUS whenever debates flirt with the question of who is or isn't a "true" fan because the premise of the question itself is a slippery slope where everyone comes out slimier in the end.

Now if we go back to the topic at hand, I think we risk personalizing the article too much, we see "adult" and in our minds we think "AFOL"  but those are different things.  "Adult" implies a certain age, level of maturity, manual dexterity, income and obligations.  "AFOL" is more of a lifestyle choice, set of values, a particular passion/motivation that non-AFOLs lack.  TLG can certainly try to relate better with the AFOL community (through fan events, ambassador network, etc) but, shy of explicitly including a survey question like "Do you consider yourself an AFOL?", they really can't differentiate a sale to an "adult" from a sale to an "AFOL"

When I read over the debates of the past few pages over the implications of a report that 10% of revenue came from sales to adult consumers, MY first thought is that it implies that 90% of revenue came from sales targeted at teens and younger.  Ten percent is a good sized chuck, literally millions of dollars, but it's just the icing, without the cake, it doesn't get you very far, so TLG's first priority should always be to bake a good cake first and worry about the icing later.

That said, there has certainly been more effort made to make grow the adult revenue chunk in recent years.  I see this in the number of larger kits, the prominence of certain themes (Architecture, assorted Ideas IPs, licensed Technic models, etc.)  that are largely meaningless to young kids but resonate with an older audience, and clearly "adult pricing" of some of the Star Wars UCS offerings of late.  These aren't really aimed at AFOLs so much as just an adult audience.

Lego designers haven't forgotten about AFOLs though, I recall  Jamie Berard at one event came out and said "I know most of you are going to build this once and then scrap it for parts, so I made this in Earth Blue and I included 20 of this fairly new part, finally available in Sand Yellow, to get more of these things in circulation."  He was talking to a room full of MOC'ers and he wanted us to know he'd listened to us and, where he had some leeway in the design (regardless of the complexity or subject matter of the kit) he was trying to give us what we'd asked for.  

This is really emblematic of the TLG as a whole coming around to the notion that a good idea may originate from anywhere, which is really a reversal for them.  For decades, TLG defended its position that if it wasn't developed in-house, an idea had no merit (and conversely, if they thought of it, it must have been good) and it took flirting with bankruptcy to break that mindset.  How much money has TLG brought in because an architect finally convinced them that the garage-made architecture kits he'd been selling out of the trunk of his car  could be a successful adult oriented line.  Where would Mindstorms be if hackers at MIT, Tufts and Stanford hadn't thrown away Lego's original software, hacked the RCX and convinced Lego to embrace the robotics community?  Compared to the first forty years of Lego, it's a wonder that Cuusoo existed at all, let alone that Ideas is now releasing higher end sets like the Saturn V, Stranger Things, and the Old Fishing Shack.  

Adult sales are still just the icing on the cake for TLG as a whole, but it's nice to know they've noticed us.

 

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On 2/10/2020 at 3:39 PM, Masked Mini said:

If TLG wanted to stick a vacuum cleaner into my wallet they'd release a Medieval modular line and a Golden Age of Piracy modular line. People had houses then too, yeah? And shops. And town squares.

Thought of you when they announced the Blacksmith shop as the ideas winner.

Edited by Gomek

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3 hours ago, Brandon Pea said:

 I am an AFOL

I know bud, I said I don't doubt it. You and I are just very different AFOLs was my point. Neither of us is more "true" than the other.

3 hours ago, danth said:

I think there is a distinction between an AFOL and an adult who will occasionally buy licensed Lego if it's from a movie/show they enjoy. 

The latter is not really a fan of Lego per se. 

I agree with this. That is largely my own demarcation. Though they may convert over time if TLG keeps feeding sets they enjoy.

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Just now, Masked Mini said:

I know bud, I said I don't doubt it. You and I are just very different AFOLs was my point. Neither of us is more "true" than the other.

Oh! My bad. But yeah though, too much people tearing down each other's ideas. I personally don't do that as that annoys me when people do it to me. I think any idea that has potential is a good idea these days. Especially with my favorite theme, City. 

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1 hour ago, Gomek said:

Thought of you when they announced the Blacksmith shop as the ideas winner.

They did what???

.... I need to work more Overtime.

1 hour ago, ShaydDeGrai said:

Adult sales are still just the icing on the cake for TLG as a whole, but it's nice to know they've noticed us.

That was a very good read. You make some great points.

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4 hours ago, ShaydDeGrai said:

Adult sales are still just the icing on the cake for TLG as a whole, but it's nice to know they've noticed us.

@ShaydDeGrai , this is an "article", everyone here should read very carefully. Thank you very much. I enjoyed every single word. 

One of the things that occasionally seem to ... sort of dissolve ... is the perspective of people who lived longer than any product LEGO has released in ABS. I am close to that - maybe not as close as you, but I do really share everything you wrote.  From my heart.

I like to add another thought. I'm working with a good number of rather potent companies; they have ample money, but they also have to be careful. I like to further elaborate on your "icing on the cake" - lets for simplicity turn that into 10 to 20% target audience. Let us further think as a person/board who runs a company. With a >huge< number of folks on the payroll. Let us presume we are on the board. It comes to revenue, salaries, future plans, new products, efficiency ... Somebody raises a hand as says: There are AFOLs on EB who like to see XYZ on the shelves. Imagine YOU are in charge of ... everything. What would you do? I would ask: How much of an impact do they have on the healthiness of our business? Somebody else replies: 10%. Another one: 20%. My reply would be: OK. Folks: Is it more than 20%? Nobody replies.

You know what I would do? OK, let us take care of the 80% first, then see what is left over for the 20%. When there is less than that: Too bad.

Wouldn't you do the same thing?

Best
Thorsten

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19 hours ago, Toastie said:

Wouldn't you do the same thing?

Yes/ No/ Maybe. At the end of the day it probably doesn't matter. Each company has their own mindset and is run by a certain type of managers. The bigger they are the less flexible and innovative tend to be because holding on to what they have becomes more important to what they could potentially achieve and gain. Is TLG any better than that? Dunno. Too many things about their decision making make me cringe, at least what's visible for the customer.

With regards to that AFOL thing I still tend to think one mustn't overrate the importance of the adult demographic. It all becomes a matter "Too much of a good thing..." eventually. You know, those crazy prices and sales numbers of sets dropping off relatively fast after initial release. It may look cool on paper if a 700 Euro set sell 50000 times in the first week, but in my view it's perhaps nothing more than a blip in the overall sales stream. This is more about marketing more than anything else...

Mylenium

Edited by Mylenium
fixed the quote formatting

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19 hours ago, Toastie said:

Somebody else replies: 10%. Another one: 20%. My reply would be: OK. Folks: Is it more than 20%? Nobody replies.

You know what I would do? OK, let us take care of the 80% first, then see what is left over for the 20%. When there is less than that: Too bad.

Wouldn't you do the same thing?

 

As the head of the company my next question would be "Are these 20% influencers?"

This is where all the business degrees in the world won't help unless you understand the audience and the market. Totally frames the conversation in an entirely different light. As I mentioned in my post previous posts, the AFOL community has had a massive impact on the entire Lego market through blogs, Bricklink (created by a AFOL) and yes, even message boards. (and if I'm not mistaken, the AFOL hobby was also the center piece of the Lego Movie, which had a massive impact on Lego that cannot be understated). I've seen the influence of AFOL builds first hand with more than a few younger fans I know personally seeing these builds and having their imagination really sparked.

And I'll also return to my parallel with the comic book market. If the comic book companies looked at the adult market share in the 1960's they'd probably see something similar to what Lego is seeing now. Who are these adults that read comic books? Do we need serious comic books? Adult Fans of Comics (AFOCs?) revolutionized that industry in the 80s and 90s. Ask Disney how the purchase of Marvel worked out for them.

Edit: or better yet, if Disney or Warner Brothers feel marginalizing AFOCs in the 60s and 70s would have worked out better for them? Maybe instead of Watchmen, Warner Brothers would have been better off if they made Heathcliff series instead? And to tie that analogy into my prior post... Those were the types of comics (Watchmen, Miller Daredevil) that I really enjoyed as a kid (despite being meant for adults) and ultimately transitioned me from a youth fan of comics to an adult fan of comics.

Edited by Gomek

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2 hours ago, Gomek said:

And I'll also return to my parallel with the comic book market.

But ultimately isn't that comparing apples with apples already? I just see natural evolution, not something revolutionary driven by any specific demographic. It's the innate drive of capitalism - companies want to make money and adapt to changing markets in order to survive and possibly usurp a given market segment. Of course sometimes something unexpected and magical happens, but in particular comics are perhaps not a great example. Most of those companies have been bankrupt many times or at least been on the edge of collapse and this can happen and inevitably will happen again. Not today, but maybe tomorrow. Same for "The LEGO Movie". Sure, it re-invigorated people's interest in LEGO, but was its impact outside a certain core demographic really that big? It's all too ambiguous and at the end of the day it still boils down that you need to have clever managers with guts and trust them to make the right decision. The adult-driven market is sure important for LEGO to some extent, but it's not that they necessarily would be worse off had they moved in a different direction once they had overcome their many crises in the past. With that being the case it also doesn't matter how much influence there actually is in ideological terms. There could be 50% AFOLs and they'd still play second fiddle as long as enough revenue can be generated elsewhere...

Mylenium

Edited by Mylenium

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1 minute ago, Mylenium said:

But ultimately isn't that comparing apples with apples already? I just see natural evolution, not something revolutionary driven by any specific demographic. It's the innate drive of capitalism - companies want to make money and adapt to changing markets in order to survive and possibly usurp a given market segment. Of course sometimes something unexpected and magical happens, but in particular comics are perhaps not a great example. Most of those companies have been bankrupt many times or at least been on the edge of collapse and this can happen and inevitably will happen again. Not today, but maybe tomorrow. Same for "The LEGO Movie". Sure, it re-invigorated people's interest in LEGO, but was its impact outside a certain core demographic really that big? It's all too ambiguous and at the end of the day it still boils down that you need to have clever managers with guts and trust them to make the right decision. The adult-driven market is sure important for LEGO to some extent, but it's not that they necessarily worse off had they moved in a different direction once they had overcome their many crises in the past. With that being the case it also doesn't matter how much influence there actually is in ideological terms. There could be 50% AFOLs and they'd still play second fiddle as long as enough revenue can be generated elsewhere...

Mylenium

Yes, apples to apples (which makes for a good comparison, no?), but like I was saying, about 20 years behind the curve (the ups and downs), which can provide a lot of insight. Also like I was saying in a prior post, the comics industry did run into a lot of problems, and I think it serves as an important warning for Lego. There are a lot of things the comic companies did wrong in the years after the 80's and 90's to squander a lot of things they gained. Some of these things I can see Lego doing as well.

Agree that you need to have clever managers, but you do also need the help of your fan base and influencers. Not so much the Kim Kardashian type, but the people who are doing a lot of the grass roots promotion for free (or at least no paid by Lego). It might even make sense to put some of these Adults on a primetime reality show to further their influence (Ok, Ok, that last part is a stretch)

I also hope I never implied AFOLs should be first fiddle. I don't think Disney/Marvel would be smart to make kids second fiddle, but Adults are a big part of who Disney does cater to, and I think ignoring that demographic would not be wise to say the least. Lego is not where Disney is as far as growing their brand to Adults, but it's not a bad model.

 

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2 hours ago, Mylenium said:

It's the innate drive of capitalism - companies want to make money and adapt to changing markets in order to survive and possibly usurp a given market segment.

 

11 hours ago, Mylenium said:

The bigger they are the less flexible and innovative tend to be because holding on to what they have becomes more important to what they could potentially achieve and gain.

 

11 hours ago, Mylenium said:

With regards to that AFOL thing I still tend to think one mustn't overrate the importance of the adult demographic.

Yes, yes and yes. TLG has become very big - at least as I am reading the numbers. Are they any different? I don't think so. There are certainly different mindsets in different companies - but in the end, in terms of "the textbook knowledge of capitalism" - these are the folks in operation now or very soon. You said "dunno" in reply to my question, but in summary, your replies suggest something else. I totally agree on don't overestimate the impact of certain interests.  

59 minutes ago, The Reader said:

80% - 20%: Pareto principle

Wikipedia says the Pareto principle "is an axiom of business management that "80% of sales come from 20% of clients". They go on with " The original observation was in connection with population and wealth" ... I really recommend this article @The Reader has motivated with this 80/20 issue (thank you very much for that!!!): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareto_principle

However, this does not apply here, I believe. TLG's products are targeting kids. Let's make that 80%. I was walking Smyth's LEGO alley today (again) and - yes. Kids. All the way from the left to way further than the center and then the $(€)150+ sets. Sort of cramped-in. You may argue that is Smyth's approach - but they want to live as well and all capitalism/marketing rules apply. Plus they somehow stated that in a somewhat shaky statement: 10% etc. etc.

10% influencers? Honestly? I don't think so. 10% with deep money pockets.

But what do I know ... I just want TLG to exist for very long. I will buy their stuff. And then do what I see fit with their bricks. I don't care about how I get bricks: In sets, used, piece wise ... whatever. Just let me continue with this wonderful hobby.

All the best
Thorsten

 

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5 hours ago, Toastie said:

10% influencers? Honestly? I don't think so. 10% with deep money pockets.

Deep pockets for sure. But let me be clear about my influencer comment. It wasn't a guess, I see it happening all over the place. I spent a lot of time with my 13 year old nephew recently, who is a lot bigger Lego enthusiast than my own son. Way more into it, and gets his parents to buy a lot more than we do for our son. It's not my influence (as clearly exhibited by my son being only a mild fan, and his particular theme interests being somewhat different than mine). This kid is online constantly looking at blogs with crazy MOCs and flickr; buying custom instructions and trying to emulate what he's seeing online. Buying tons of bricks to do so. These galleries and instructions which are fueling his habit are not things being produced by kids or teens. All that content that is inspiring a lot of Lego's fanbase is being produced by adults.

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I'm an adult. I enjoy building and collecting LEGO sets. I frequent LEGO fan sites, go to the occasional event/display, and I even worked for the company for half a decade. The passion and motivation Shayd mentions are definitely there. I am by any objective measure part of that group contributing 10% of TLG's revenue.

I don't consider myself an AFOL.

Probably a big part of my rejection of that label is just how toxic the general idea of fandom has become. (Matt Singer has a pretty good write-up of that here.)

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35 minutes ago, tafkatb said:

Probably a big part of my rejection of that label is just how toxic the general idea of fandom has become. (Matt Singer has a pretty good write-up of that here.)

Part of the reason I don't get into Licensed themes.

And that's 100% my personal view, I'm not saying that other people can't enjoy those themes/characters/figures.

 

Of course there are other reasons beside "fandom" for not liking Licensed themes too much, like flesh heads vs yellow.

Maybe that's just part of my long-time period away from LEGO (~15 years) 2001-2016, and a different viewpoint or "Taste" for what I like about LEGO.

Edited by TeriXeri

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11 hours ago, Gomek said:

All that content that is inspiring a lot of Lego's fanbase is being produced by adults.

I'm afraid it's still not a conclusive logical argument in terms of how it might affect overall sales. Your cousin is likely more the exception than the rule. We mustn't get lost in our own bubble too much. That scene may not be economically unimportant, but its certainly not the main drive behind LEGO's business.

Mylenium

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