Ngoc Nguyen

42113 Bell Boeing V-22 Osprey

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That is true.

And then doing decent talks (over months!) would have - as far as I am reading it - easily resolved the issue. In any other way than cancellation.

This Society is aware of environmental impact (wasting resources), seems to know what it means, when boxes have been shipped out already etc.

My feelings are there is something else going on. At TLG.

Best
Thorsten

 

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You misunderstand me.  If you have been making wrong choice "B" for several months while thinking about making right choice "A", and after incurring large sunk costs from wrong choice "B" you switch to choice "A" at the last minute, you are to be commended for your integrity in switching to "A" before the choice becomes irrevocable.  Your history of making wrong choice "B" is not to be commended.

With 42113, Lego has been making choice "B" at least since February before switching to choice "A".  I am not commending them for their integrity in making choice "B" for many months.  I am commending them for their integrity in switching to choice "A" in the end.  Perhaps that nuance did not come across in my previous posts. 

The sentence "However, it's a commendation for integrity that, were the standards of integrity at the company higher in the first place, would not have to happen (i.e., not pursuing the license in the first place, and going with a fictionalized Coast Guard tiltrotor from the beginning)" was intended to show that I do not "buy their story hook, line, and sinker."

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2 minutes ago, icm said:

You misunderstand me.  If you have been making wrong choice "B" for several months while thinking about making right choice "A", and after incurring large sunk costs from wrong choice "B" you switch to choice "A" at the last minute, you are to be commended for your integrity in switching to "A" before the choice becomes irrevocable.  Your history of making wrong choice "B" is not to be commended.

With 42113, Lego has been making choice "B" at least since February before switching to choice "A".  I am not commending them for their integrity in making choice "B" for many months.  I am commending them for their integrity in switching to choice "A" in the end.  Perhaps that nuance did not come across in my previous posts. 

The sentence "However, it's a commendation for integrity that, were the standards of integrity at the company higher in the first place, would not have to happen (i.e., not pursuing the license in the first place, and going with a fictionalized Coast Guard tiltrotor from the beginning)" was intended to show that I do not "buy their story hook, line, and sinker."

The nuance came through just fine, you simply don't understand that Lego didn't make choice A. It's all choice B, which they thought they could get away by ignoring. They didn't, but now they pretend to be making choice A, which you are buying into.
You might have seen through the original issue, but you're not seeing the current one. Meanwhile Lego has been making choice B for years and will continue doing it, but mask it by quoting a pretense policy with zero ethical value.
If they admit that, and vow to never release another violent or military inspired set, that would be a show of integrity, but also a severe limitation in the diversity of their catalogue impacting both them and us.
As a matter of fact, their pretend policy has long outlived it's purpose, and should be further adjusted to cover specifically modern military themed sets, which is how they have already been treating it. Then the Osprey would be fine, as it has a rescue theme.
Problem solved to the satisfaction of all parties but those asking for cutting ties with Boeing, which isn't happening even now, so that point is superficial.

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Fair enough, we're just disagreeing on what choice "A" is.  You seem to define choice "A" broadly as strictly avoiding anything "violent or military" in any form, while I define choice "A" narrowly as not producing a Bell-Boeing V-22 Osprey for the reason that it is an aircraft exclusively used by belligerents in today's combat zones without any realized civilian application whatsoever.  I think we can agree to disagree on that (that is, on a broad or narrow interpretation of choice "A").

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20 minutes ago, icm said:

Fair enough, we're just disagreeing on what choice "A" is.  You seem to define choice "A" broadly as strictly avoiding anything "violent or military" in any form, while I define choice "A" narrowly as not producing a Bell-Boeing V-22 Osprey for the reason that it is an aircraft exclusively used by belligerents in today's combat zones without any realized civilian application whatsoever.  I think we can agree to disagree on that (that is, on a broad or narrow interpretation of choice "A"). 

You're trying to pigeonhole me into something I don't mean. No, Lego didn't recall the set for that reason, they knew its history in advance, after all they worked with Boeing on it, and proceeded all the way to production anyway.
They are withdrawing it to avoid the appearance that they're not following their own guidelines and in the process they're exposing those guidelines as insincere. I hope I've made myself clear now.
It's also evident from the sequence of events - the anti-war group simply requested that TLG should refrain from working with Boeing, remove the branding and issue a generic tilt-rotor aircraft.
In response Lego cancels the Osprey outright, but there is no mention of cutting ties with Boeing - if that isn't proof enough, then I don't know what is.

The majority of fans already realize the pretense of TLG's 'values' on some level and don't hold it against them when they bend the rules to the point of breaking, because it gives us variety in the sets they create.
The rest are in denial because they like certain things, be it Star Wars, Marvel or whatever. But now that a line has been crossed into something they don't like, they become vocal about it, not realizing their own complicity in the matter.

Edited by nhk

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I think whoever protested it needs to calm down a bit... Its a lego toy with the word 'rescue' on the side. Its not camouflage with guns. People with too much time on their hands... would it have corrupted anyone? Done any harm? Nooo. So why the drama really? There's a lunatic in charge in the white house and 200 million gun toting Americans shooting each other every day... we see atrocities from syria every day.. suicide bombers in iraq..  but a lego toy is an easy target i guess. Despite it never killing anyone.

(unless all those morons with guns have got 42113 on their xmas list of course... in which case burn all the sets!!)

There are far more damaging issues to address in the world than a toy... but taking on presidents and warlords risks getting shot.

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33 minutes ago, nhk said:

The majority of fans already realize the pretense of TLG's 'values' on some level and don't hold it against them when they bend the rules to the point of breaking, because it gives us variety in the sets they create.
The rest are in denial because they like certain things, be it Star Wars, Marvel or whatever. But now that a line has been crossed into something they don't like, they become vocal about it, not realizing their own complicity in the matter.

I think LEGO would be pretty 2-faced if they'd make some generic Creator 3-in-1 jets/helicopters next wave. (the military lookalike sets)

I certainly can see why those sets weren't an issue then, and they were mostly overlooked, but now the focus is on them for sure.

I'd rather have them openly admit to their mistakes and widen their policy, either make those licensed vehicles 18+ or something, rather then never seeing any jet/helicopter ever again.

Edited by TeriXeri

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31 minutes ago, TeamThrifty said:

.. but a lego toy is an easy target i guess. Despite it never killing anyone.

Exactly, because in the end of the day, that's the most they can accomplish. I don't think they're afraid of e certain president, they just know how powerless they are, so they use every opportunity they can. And Lego handed them one on a silver platter.

18 minutes ago, TeriXeri said:

I think LEGO would be pretty 2-faced if they'd make some generic Creator 3-in-1 jets/helicopters next wave. (the military lookalike sets)
I certainly can see why those sets weren't an issue then, and they were mostly overlooked, but now the focus is on them for sure.
I'd rather have them openly admit to their mistakes and widen their policy, either make those licensed vehicles 18+ or something, rather then never seeing any jet/helicopter ever again. 

They are two-faced already, but they're good at spinning things so it appears differently to the general public.
I think we'd all rather have them admit that their actual mistake in the poor writing of said policy and amend it to reflect their intent.
That way we can get the generic unlicensed sets and the licensed non-militaristic Osprey.
But despite appearances TLG isn't the type of company to admit a mistake of such magnitude. They're just another rigid corporate entity.
Or maybe someone just needs to write them an email about it ?

Edited by nhk

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4 minutes ago, nhk said:

Exactly, because in the end of the day, that's the most they can accomplish. I don't think they're afraid of e certain president, they just know how powerless they are, so they use every opportunity they can. And Lego handed them one on a silver platter.

They are two-faced already, but they're good at spinning things so it appears differently to the general public.
I think we'd all rather have them admit that their actual mistake in the poor writing of said policy and amend it to reflect their intent.
That way we can get the generic unlicensed sets and the licensed non-militaristic Osprey.
But despite appearances TLG isn't the type of company to admit a mistake of such magnitude. They're just another rigid corporate entity.

I think LEGO should also show  that the Boeing License itself isn't the issue here (despite that being the main point of those protesters).

Maybe LEGO should make good use of their Boeing License and make a 747 jet, as they are retiring fast worldwide due to Covid even faster then planned, and no new orders after the next 16 currently on order are being finished.

Edited by TeriXeri

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Just now, TeriXeri said:

I think LEGO should also show  that the Boeing License itself isn't the issue here (despite that being the main point of those protesters).
Maybe LEGO should make good use of their Boeing License and make a 747 jet, as they are retiring fast worldwide due to Covid even faster then planned, and no new orders after the next 16 currently on order are being finished.

Exactly my thoughts. I'd like to see the look on their faces when they realize that their appeal didn't produce the desired effect and they got a harmless toy cancelled for nothing.

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Question for European and American members . Will the shipped stock be sold or will it all be returned to lego? 

In nz shipped stock can be sold hence why Ebay is full of 42113 auctions 

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14 minutes ago, brickless_kiwi said:

Question for European and American members . Will the shipped stock be sold or will it all be returned to lego? 

I'm really hoping some vendors in the US got some, I'm just not sure who they are. In the US, I've seen a few sets at places like Wal-Mart, but usually very few technic. Mostly in the US it seems like they are sold online (Amazon) and at official Lego stores, which I assume would just send them back to the warehouse, so I'm not sure how many will be in the wild here. It seems like the smaller independent toy shops don't sell Lego new, but often used or old-but-still NIB sets.

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Retailers can sell stock currently in their possession.  They won't be able to re-stock. 

Brick Fanatics said 1642 were shipped out.

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Not sure how much truth it has to it but found an interesting comment on a Promobricks article. https://www.promobricks.de/lego-42113-technic-osprey-bauanleitung/105447/ about @Ngoc Nguyen's scanned .pdf of the instructions.

The comment mentions that the individual is in contact with a German agency with regards to trying to get Lego to give the sets to the International Red Cross to sell for charity.  Interesting if this is true and whether it would be beneficial or not...

Sorry; it is in German:

Lion sagt:

Stand heute haben wir von affenspass.de eine Anfrage an LEGO gestartet, ob sie nicht das Set über uns verkaufen wollen. Die Einnahmen sollte dann das Rote Kreuz bekommen. Wir versuchen dabei mit LEGO Charity zusammenzuarbeiten und den Release am 01. August zu halten. Ich werde promobricks auf dem Laufenden halten wie Lego/Das internationale Rote Kreuz die Idee finden.

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1 hour ago, dr_spock said:

Retailers can sell stock currently in their possession.  They won't be able to re-stock. 

Brick Fanatics said 1642 were shipped out.

1642 refer the peices part count 

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5 hours ago, brickless_kiwi said:

Will the shipped stock be sold or will it all be returned to lego?

Talked to the owner of a small toys shop on wednesday: New (technic) sets should arrive today (friday) at his store. Maybe 42113 won't be shipped at all.

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5 hours ago, anyUser said:

Talked to the owner of a small toys shop on wednesday: New (technic) sets should arrive today (friday) at his store. Maybe 42113 won't be shipped at all.

Similar to what I heard from my local. They said Lego is obsessed with their release dates and tries not to let stock get to retailers more than a few days before hand, so the vast majority of stores don't have any of the new sets yet. Lego will simply not send the Ospreys, give retailers their money back, and so only a very small number which arrived early are ever going to make it to store shelves.

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I also contacted my local official Lego retailer. They didn't get any and won't be getting any. There's only one other shop where I can find it online but says stock = 0. The rest of the shops hardly have some of the more common Technic sets so it's not even worth asking.

 

Plenty more sets up for sale on Ebay today, most around the $1200 mark. So from a proper launch, we went to a potentially delayed launch, then to a cancelled one, then to a limited availability one which will soon dry up and then we'll only have a speculative market on it.

 

Was it worth it, Lego?

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I got some thoughts today:

- The reviewers (Sariel, RacingBrick/kbalage) received 42112 and 42115 early for review but didn't receive the 42113. And since the day that the sets were sent and the day the reviews received the sets must have been before the embargo date (July 16th and July 17th), that already means the decision to postpone the release of 42113 must have occured in the first several days of July. This would also mean the protest of that peace group didn't have that much impact as people think it did. Perhaps it only serve as a catalyst. Or, as posited by some, it could have been orchestrated by TLG to give them a legit excuse to back out of the release.

- TLG's own actions defeat their point about "not wanting to be associated with an arm manufacturer" or "not wanting to release a military aircraft". The fact is just that some people already got their copies through legitimate means, which means TLG did release the set to them. It has never been and will never be true that "TLG had a wake-up slap and regained their conscience and managed to stop the release of such a heinous and unethical model." It's that they did release it. And since the promotion materials have been prepared and released, there is always proof that TLG does / used to have dealings with Bell and Boeing. 

- JB Spielwaren has been requested (or should I say ordered) by TLG to take down his 42113 review videos, and he actually did. Someone will send Sariel a copy soon, but I'm not sure if TLG will give him a pass. They already requested that he changed his channel's name. @Sariel what do you think about this? 

Edited by Ngoc Nguyen

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13 minutes ago, Ngoc Nguyen said:

- JB Spielwaren has been requested (or should I say ordered) by TLG to take down his 42113 review videos, and he actually did. Someone will send Sariel a copy soon, but I'm not sure if TLG will give him a pass. They already requested that he changed his channel's name. @Sariel what do you think about this? 

Hmm, what if someone makes a "moc" (since we have the instruction) but with different colored parts and no stickers. Technically it's not the official set then? Or is it?

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23 minutes ago, Ngoc Nguyen said:

I got some thoughts today:

- The reviewers (Sariel, RacingBrick/kbalage) received 42112 and 42115 early for review but didn't receive the 42113. And since the day that the sets were sent and the day the reviews received the sets must have been before the embargo date (July 16th and July 17th), that already means the decision to postpone the release of 42113 must have occured in the first several days of July. This would also mean the protest of that peace group didn't have that much impact as people think it did. Perhaps it only serve as a catalyst. Or, as posited by some, it could have been orchestrated by TLG to give them a legit excuse to back out of the release.

- TLG's own actions defeat their point about "not wanting to be associated with an arm manufacturer" or "not wanting to release a military aircraft". The fact is just that some people already got their copies through legitimate means, which means TLG did release the set to them. It has never been and will never be true that "TLG had a wake-up slap and regained their conscience and managed to stop the release of such a heinous and unethical model." It's that they did release it. And since the promotion materials have been prepared and released, there is always proof that TLG does / used to have dealings with Bell and Boeing. 

- JB Spielwaren has been requested (or should I say ordered) by TLG to take down his 42113 review videos, and he actually did. Someone will send Sariel a copy soon, but I'm not sure if TLG will give him a pass. They already requested that he changed his channel's name. @Sariel what do you think about this? 

Those ideas are definitely plausible but we can't be sure.

At this point the exact decision chain that led to the cancellation is unknown. But the fact that that protest had any significant play in it seems more unlikely each day.

Rather I think part of the people working on getting 42113 to market wanted to go ahead with it and others didn't. Perhaps there was an internal struggle and one side won out. Hence the seemingly bizarre decision with a late cancellation.

I wouldn't put this past some high ranking manager that wasn't involved from the start and who only very late in the game decided to cancel it, for whatever reason. And since TLG couldn't really explain all of their different internal factions and their interests they put out an unconvincing statement.

However, again, this is nothing more than speculation. But if you ask me it's less likely that the same people who worked on getting set 42113 approved, developed, manufactured and to stores just got a change of mind and cancelled it. Someone with sufficient authority, potentially previously unfamiliar with the product, stepped in.

 

Edited by XenoRad

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5 minutes ago, Dylan M said:

So, what next, they'll ask EB to delete the BI, Interesting to see...

JB Spielwaren and Sariel have the incentives to comply with TLG's removal request should TLG decides to send it, but my review is a review from someone who got the set legitimately. So at least the review should be safe. As for the BI, plenty of people have downloaded it. The numbers on mediafire said 3,000 downloads. So even if it is taken down, it is still gonna be passed around on the Internet.

Edited by Ngoc Nguyen

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3 minutes ago, Ngoc Nguyen said:

 The numbers on mediafire said 3,000 downloads. So even if it is taken down, it is still gonna be passed around on the Internet.

I say we put the instructions in a time capsule (and don't tell TLG where we buried it :wink:) so that humans 1000 years from now can build it. And maybe we raise some money to send the instructions to space on a rocket so that aliens will be able to build it too.

Edited by XenoRad

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