Technical problem 9V

[Haddock51]

On my new layout, I have now displayed four tracks that are operated individually with a 9V speed regulator each. All power connections to the rails have been checked w.r.t. polarization. Conceptually, the setup is equal to the Lego Train 9V Extreme display, including crossover swiches linking these tracks together.

The basic idea is to run trains on these four tracks independent from each other in elective directions.

The first tests showed no problems. However, these initial tests were performed with one train at a time. Recently I started to run several trains at the same time. Then I discovered that there seems to be some kind of interference between all four tracks. When running trains in opposite directions, the engines slow down or come to a stop. Notice that all crossover switches are in straight position.

When operating the four speed regulators, they work only on the designed tracks, i.e. there is no visible interference at all in terms of other engines on other tracks would start running simultaneously.

I just don't understand this problem, particularly considering the fact that I have never experienced similar problems on the Lego Train 9V Extreme track. Any advise to get this problem solved would be highly appreciated!

 

Below a schedule over this layout with positions of the power connections to the track

Edited January 23, 2020 by Haddock51

[Toastie]

Would it be possible to share a drawing (photograph of a sketch on a piece of paper is fine) showing the layout, particularly the switch points and the power feed positions? Otherwise, all is highly speculative.

One thing (that you are certainly aware of) that always needs close attention when using multiple 9V regulators on one track layout is that the regulator output is mechanically fully reversing both polarities when going from a right dial position over 0 (= no connection) to a left dial position. It just means there is no common ground; + become - and vice versa. But I don't have to tell you, just as a general note.

Best
Thorsten

     

[Haddock51]

Just now, Toastie said:

Would it be possible to share a drawing (photograph of a sketch on a piece of paper is fine) showing the layout, particularly the switch points and the power feed positions? Otherwise, all is highly speculative.

One thing (that you are certainly aware of) that always needs close attention when using multiple 9V regulators on one track layout is that the regulator output is mechanically fully reversing both polarities when going from a right dial position over 0 (= no connection) to a left dial position. It just means there is no common ground; + become - and vice versa. But I don't have to tell you, just as a general note.

Best
Thorsten

     

I just added a schedule.

I am aware of reversed polarities when changing dial positions. That doesn't answer the question of interference between the various tracks, or?

[Toastie]

Oops ... OK lets have a look - hmm.

I believe we need to focus on the two cross overs consisting of 4 individual points each (on the lower left and right). Before we do though, what is the purpose of D1 and A3 on the same track segment, as well as A4 and D2?

What is the nomenclature? A1 = regulator A1 with both polarities attached? Or A1 = regulator A polarity 1?

Another question: Do you feed the 9V regulators from only one - maybe larger - DC power supply? Or do they all have their own power supply running from mains?

Best
Thorsten 

Edited January 23, 2020 by Toastie
Cross posting ...

[Haddock51]

1 hour ago, Toastie said:

Oops ... OK lets have a look - hmm.

I believe we need to focus on the two cross overs consisting of 4 individual points each (on the lower left and right). Before we do though, what is the purpose of D1 and A3 on the same track segment, as well as A4 and D2?

What is the nomenclature? A1 = regulator A1 with both polarities attached? Or A1 = regulator A polarity 1?

The siding at the lower part of the schedule is dedicated to an "Airport Shuttle", a rather short train with two engines. The purpose of having both Regulator A and Regulator D on the same track segment is to make it possible to run also long trains with 4 engines or more - e.g. the TEE VT11.5 - all the way up to the Airport level.

All power connections with nomenclature A are operated by Regulator A (both plus and minus). Connections B are operated by Regulator B etc.

Notice that Regulator A and Regulator B are modified and equipped with LM350T regulators, 3A diodes and outside heatsinks to allow for trains with up to 10 engines. Regulator C and D are standard 9V speed regulators. In comparison, the 9V Extreme track is operated with four modified speed regulators.

Edited January 23, 2020 by Haddock51

[M_slug357]

Maybe clean the track...?

Assuming each controller is connected to multiple 9V power clips, check their polarities...?

Do you have insulation segments...?

Maybe some motors are just... feeling their age...?

Its also possible that if the controllers are situated right next to each other, the ones with heightened capabilities are radiating EMF to the weaker ones...?

Thats all I got

[Haddock51]

3 minutes ago, M_slug357 said:

Maybe clean the track...?

Assuming each controller is connected to multiple 9V power clips, check their polarities...?

Do you have insulation segments...?

Maybe some motors are just... feeling their age...?

Its also possible that if the controllers are situated right next to each other, the ones with heightened capabilities are radiating EMF to the weaker ones...?

Thats all I got

#1:    done

#2:    done

#3:    what are insulation segments?

#4:    the test motors are brand new!

#5:    ?

Edited January 23, 2020 by Haddock51

[Haddock51]

And this is how all cables are connected in the Cable terminal:

 

[aawsum]

My experience is that switches are sometimes "leaking" so although they are set to the main track and therefore you think there is no interference between the 4 tracks it could still be.

The most simple advice is to disconnect all the switches and run in the same way as you described. If this does not lead to an issue then your switches are the problem. If it does lead to the same issue then your power connections as shown above are the issue.

What I also see in your cable picture is that you have connected the negative wires together, that also looks a bit tricky to me as you are then mixing the power supplies for the 4 different tracks. Maybe even easier to undo those connections and run your tests.

 

On a positive side, I like your setup of the power cables. Do you use standard lego 9v regulators or do you have a different setup?

Edited January 23, 2020 by aawsum

[Toastie]

23 minutes ago, Haddock51 said:

And this is how all cables are connected in the Cable terminal:

Well, again: Do these two +/-terminals feed all regulators in parallel?

Another quick check: What is the voltage you measure on the individual track sections, when you set the dials? Do these voltages correspond to the settings on the dials, when you disconnect them from the track?

[Haddock51]

53 minutes ago, aawsum said:

What I also see in your cable picture is that you have connected the negative wires together, that also looks a bit tricky to me as you are then mixing the power supplies for the 4 different tracks. Maybe even easier to undo those connections and run your tests.

This is exactly the reason for this problem!

When mounting the minus cbles and connecting the four blocks, I was absolutely sure I had done it the same way on the 9V Extreme track, which I haven't....

So this is how it looks now. Problem solved!

Another sign of growing dementia...?

Thank you guys for all your help and attention. And sorry for taking up your time for such a stupidity.....

 

 

 

Edited January 23, 2020 by Haddock51

[Toastie]

Just now, Haddock51 said:

Another sign of growing dementia...?

Well then count me in. I have done much, much worse things. 

All that counts is that it works now!

Have fun!

Best
Thorsten

[Haddock51]

45 minutes ago, aawsum said:

 Do you use standard lego 9v regulators or do you have a different setup?

As mentionned above, I use two modified and two standard speed regulators:

[Phoxtane]

On 1/23/2020 at 11:09 AM, Haddock51 said:

This is exactly the reason for this problem!

When mounting the minus cbles and connecting the four blocks, I was absolutely sure I had done it the same way on the 9V Extreme track, which I haven't....

So this is how it looks now. Problem solved!

*snipped as to not quote images*

I can confirm this is why you were having those problems. Say you have one regulator at full blast one way putting out +9V (measured from the left rail to the right rail), and the second one is at full blast the other direction, putting out -9V (measured again from the left rail to the right rail). Since you had inadvertently connected your regulators in parallel, your regulators would now be cancelling each other out (add -9 to +9) resulting in no movement on either track.

Paralleling your regulators is totally fine if you wanted some extra current capacity - but you've already modded some of your regulators to achieve that so it doesn't seem like it's necessary. In addition, if you wanted to parallel them you'd have to make sure they were all at the same setting every time you changed the speed.

Edited January 25, 2020 by Phoxtane

[Dav1d]

I would insulate each of the three circuits - so one controller just operates one circuit. I would insulate the sections by placing a small piece of Sellotape between the track joins at the crossovers. I don't understand what the 4th controller does. 

[Roadmonkeytj]

The thing that I haven't seen anyone address.  You mentioned your running trains in opposite directions.  This means opposite polarity.  If your getting a voltage leak then this makes sense.  The voltages are dropping due to it being fed conflicting polarities.  The circuit can't complete through the train motor due to the lack of path.  

Are you noticing they slow a certain spot? Or more random ... Is it after x amount of run time (overheating possibly)

Also you can check this with a volt meter.  Power one set of tracks and disconnect the power leads on the other controllers then check your unpowered tracks with the volt meter to see if your getting bleedover .  Isolate the switches from the other loop until it drops off.

[Haddock51]

On 1/26/2020 at 8:51 PM, Roadmonkeytj said:

The thing that I haven't seen anyone address.  You mentioned your running trains in opposite directions.  This means opposite polarity.  If your getting a voltage leak then this makes sense.  The voltages are dropping due to it being fed conflicting polarities.  The circuit can't complete through the train motor due to the lack of path.  

Are you noticing they slow a certain spot? Or more random ... Is it after x amount of run time (overheating possibly)

Also you can check this with a volt meter.  Power one set of tracks and disconnect the power leads on the other controllers then check your unpowered tracks with the volt meter to see if your getting bleedover .  Isolate the switches from the other loop until it drops off.

The basic idea with this layout - as with the 9V Extreme layout - is to provide the possibility to run several trains simultaneously, and independant from each other, by using multiple speed regulators for different segments.This can be done with all switches in straight position, thereby eliminating interference with opposite polarity.

As mentionned above, the original problem - caused by inaccurately connecting all minus cables together - is now solved and it is now possible to run 3 trains at the same time without conflicting polarities.

Edited February 3, 2020 by Haddock51

[Haddock51]

On 1/23/2020 at 4:48 PM, aawsum said:

My experience is that switches are sometimes "leaking" so although they are set to the main track and therefore you think there is no interference between the 4 tracks it could still be.

I need to get back to @aawsums comment re. "leaking" switches.

All in all, I have been using almost 50 switches - incl. crossovers and halfcurves - over the past 25 years and never experienced any "leaks".

Based on your experience, what are the reasons behind leaking switches?

[Toastie]

1 hour ago, Haddock51 said:

Based on your experience, what are the reasons behind leaking switches?

Just my 2 cents here:

There aren't that many possible reasons, are there. It must have to do with misaligned or broken or foreign metal parts inside the switch causing wrong current flows.

You have taken apart the switches yourself: It is a rather delicate internal setup. Not regarding the mechanics but the springs and plastic guides etc. When this mechanism gets out of normal positioning, e.g. something pops over a limiter, then, although the plastic parts are in straight position, the metal parts may not. That happened to me after I opened a switch, modified the lever to soften its throw point, and then did not put correctly back together. My resulting leakage though was a more or less full short and partly melted the plastic parts - I have a permanent 15 V/10 A power supply on my entire layout. That dissipated a lot of wattage ... 

However, it never happened to me on non-modifed switches. Also, as I have modified about 20 of my 35 switch points and then - after learning it the hard way - was paying very close attention to re-assemble then correctly no more "leakage" at all.

Regards,
Thorsten     

[Haddock51]

Thanks @Toastie for sharing your own experiences.

Yes, I would have been surprised to learn about leaking non-modified switches (unless they have been damaged one way or an other).

Interesting to read your short circuit case with rather dramatic consequences. It appears to me that you must have missed adequate fuses with your permanent power supply. Standard - including my modded - 9V speed regulators include termo fuses which automatically interrupt power supply in case of short circuit. I guess a safety precaution since the 9V system with its open power supply to the 9V engines originally was developed for children.

That's why I was surprised to read about this "leaking" issue. Using 9V speed regulators, it's either on or off, straight or switch - nothing in between. That's at least my understanding.

And yes, modifying 9V switches is tricky and requires full attention and accuracy.

PS: 15V/10A 150W permanent power supply on your layout?!? A Lego 9V train engine at full speed requires approximately 350mA. 10A would theoretically be enough to run 30 9V engines at the same time at full speed ... So what's the basic idea behind 10A permanent power supply? Why 15V? What is the maximum voltage tolerance for 9V engines?

By comparison, on my 9V Extreme layout, I use 4 modified 9V speed regulators with LM350T regulators that can provide up to 3A each. This means that, theoretically, I could run 4 trains with 10 9V engines each at full speed (alt.13 engines at medium speed as on the Swedish Iron Ore Train) which all in all would require approx. 12A. Still less than half of what the Voltcraft EP-925 Linear Regulated Power Supply unit can provide (3-15V/DC, 2-25A 375W).

However, the difference here is that the Voltcraft will only provide as much power as is required/needed. No risk for overheated rails. And with the outside heatsinks, LM350T temperature increase is well under controll. 

Edited February 5, 2020 by Haddock51

[Toastie]

On 2/4/2020 at 9:46 PM, Haddock51 said:

PS: 15V/10A 150W permanent power supply on your layout?!? A Lego 9V train engine at full speed requires approximately 350mA. 10A would theoretically be enough to run 30 9V engines at the same time at full speed ... So what's the basic idea behind 10A permanent power supply? Why 15V? What is the maximum voltage tolerance for 9V engines?

Well, I don't want to repeat my entries here on EB regarding the setup of my layout - I don't like self-promotion.

I short, the entire track layout is powered with 15 DC. Everywhere. I am using several (soldered) feeds from two main delivery points - these two are connected to the power supply with serious wire gauge. From there, essentially genuine 1.5 mm2 wires go to the several feeds. Everything on the layout is powered of the track; lights/light controllers, switch point controllers, bridge controller, recharging points, etc. That also means that all switch points have all directions powered.

Several of my trains use a modified 9V train motor as power pickup and motor. These are separated electrically in the motor housing, power from the rails is routed through a bridge rectifier (so that polarity is always the same on the exit) to the outside, fed into a 9V regulator powering either the rechargeable LiPo PF battery box or - via a couple of diodes (to drop the 9 V further by about 0.6 V for each diode) - to trickle charge NiMH rechargeables in modified conventional 9V battery boxes. These in turn power PuP hubs or PF IR receivers, which in turn power the 9V motor or whatever.

This way all trains have full access to track power on metal track, automatically turn over to battery power on non-metal track (e.g., used for insulation of wyes). I simply don't have to care anymore about battery life other than they go bad after so many recharging "cycles".

Electrified trackside stuff is set up in the same way; I use mostly RCX PBricks to do these jobs. They can be fed directly with 15 V DC as they have internal voltage control (the 1.0 version that is!).

15V/10A is easily supplied by a slightly more powerful laptop power supply.

10 A? Because I don't want to think about wattage when I add another electrically powered "thing" (be it train or whatever) to my layout.

I guess this is it ...

All the best,
Thorsten             

On 2/4/2020 at 9:46 PM, Haddock51 said:

However, the difference here is that the Voltcraft will only provide as much power as is required/needed

When you deliberately limit, i.e., set the max. current on the supply of course. Otherwise, the electrical resistance of whatever you power determines the current drawn.

Also, the 9V LEGO metal track do have some sizeable resistance. Same holds true for a "misaligned" switch - here it may become even higher than everywhere else in the entire circuit. And when this happens, heat is generated here as well (P = I^2 R). Which in turn may melt plastic ...

Best
Thorsten

Edited February 5, 2020 by Toastie
well, read twice before pressing submit ...

[aawsum]

On 2/4/2020 at 6:55 PM, Haddock51 said:

I need to get back to @aawsums comment re. "leaking" switches.

All in all, I have been using almost 50 switches - incl. crossovers and halfcurves - over the past 25 years and never experienced any "leaks".

Based on your experience, what are the reasons behind leaking switches?

Although a good answer has been given that this happens with modified switches, I also experience this with non-modified switches. Reasoning behind this is the fact that we run on MILS, and as we run wires underneath the track a part of the track and switches do not have a solid base underneath. This in combination with tables that are not straight the trains are sometimes bumping on the track they tend to loosen the delicate parts in the switch itself, causing voltage leaks.

I know it sounds fuzzy bit this is what is really happening.

[SteamSewnEmpire]

Wow, what a setup!

[Haddock51]

On 2/8/2020 at 9:30 AM, aawsum said:

Although a good answer has been given that this happens with modified switches, I also experience this with non-modified switches. Reasoning behind this is the fact that we run on MILS, and as we run wires underneath the track a part of the track and switches do not have a solid base underneath. This in combination with tables that are not straight the trains are sometimes bumping on the track they tend to loosen the delicate parts in the switch itself, causing voltage leaks.

I know it sounds fuzzy bit this is what is really happening.

So if I understand you right, the "leakage" in your case @aawsum is not due to problems with switches but rather due to construction/setup circumstances with your layout (which at least to me is good news...) I assume that these circumstances eventually also could cause derailings.

My advice would be to spend more time and effort on wires and tables in order to get rid of the root causes behind your "leaking" and other problems.

Edited February 9, 2020 by Haddock51

[aawsum]

Don't worry about my setup, this topic was about your issues. i was just answering ;-)