New train wheels tested by LEGO

[3D LEGO]

A couple things come to mind as I consider the video as well as comments by others. To respond, I will draw upon real world examples.

First, regarding testing on serpentine track and flex track. This makes perfect sense. Sure straight running tests are also good but ultimately it is friction that slows things down or in the case of batteries as a power source, drains them faster. Serpentine track has long been the bane of many a railway. Some have suffered unduly wear and tear due to long rigid frames such as were common in the United States and Russia. UPRR DD40X comes to mind as a well known example. Another example I was just reading up on again was the EF-4/EP-4 of the Milwaukee Road. Serpentire track age across the Rocky Mountains coupled with the long wheelbase led to excessive flange wear. 2-D+D-2 or (2'D)+(D2')

Regarding the split axle design over a a straight axle, if we recall that a slight coning is applied to railway wheels to help them track much better around curves. But not all trains employ straight axles. If my memory serves me correctly, intermediate axles on Talgo coaches use a split axle. They do just fine at speed and have an advantage over other tilting systems as there is no power tilt system to fail and they can work even on serpentine track that most other systems cannot.

I am appreciative that they were well aware of limitations of their own product and sought how that they could improve them.

While I have not as of yet owned any of the new wheel designs, they may in due time show their worth. I hope that these two thoughts were helpful to all.

3D LEGO

[fred67]

On 12/13/2019 at 4:38 AM, monai said:

In Italy we say:

"Don't ask the barman if the wine taste good"

there have already been published indipendent tests that say the contrary, but I agree with LEGO the new wheels are CHEAPER to produce and therefore more PROFITABLE.. anyway perhaps more children oriented and even more eco-friendly but sincerely I don't understand this propaganda. 

 

22 hours ago, JopieK said:

They promise more train at least so that is good isn't it?! We will need to see how it functions in practice.

 

I had to laugh when they suggested the cost savings would essentially benefit the consumers.  I love LEGO, but TLG's profit margins are super high for a toy company.  They are very good at optimizing profit.

 

8 hours ago, Toastie said:

WHAT?

I did not watch that video as others did and pointed out the ... way they researched.

So they are pulling the environmental card? For train wheels??? Man. They should just reduce their cardboard box sizes to what is environmentally friendly and will make an orders of magnitude higher impact on the environment. I really don't like it, when someone tries to ride this wave - with zero impact: Trains - as they repeatedly said - are a niche (in a niche). What about life-time? These new material wheels do live how long? And then they are replaced? Phew. They should be careful pulling that card. In a niche.

Best
Thorsten

It seems to me they are being much better with boxes.  I just got the Disney Train, and was really surprised how small the box was for what you were getting - there was very little empty space.

Again, I'm being hard on TLG, but they traditionally made larger boxes than they needed to optimize their shelf space in third party stores (like Toys R Us and Target).  But then they started opening their own stores and, hopefully, realized they were costing themselves quite a lot when you consider commercial real estate leasing costs per square foot.

But that wasn't really enough - I think they started absolutely killing themselves on shipping.  Think of the the size of box you need for modulars, and those were the kinds of sets that were getting free shipping because of the cost - not the little sets.  Every year people are buying more directly from them online - shipping must be a huge expense.

So it's just one set (I've been away from LEGO for a while), but I'd like to think they are getting better (but again, for the sake of money, not the environment).

 

[coinoperator]

7 hours ago, Phil B said:

plant-sourced ingredients

For some reason people don't get the impact of this.
Make plantbased plastics, plantbased diesel, etc etc has a huge impact on food production and costs even more forests...
(like the poisoned kids that make the lithium cells for those "friendly" electric cars.)

Edited December 15, 2019 by coinoperator

[JopieK]

1 hour ago, coinoperator said:

For some reason people don't get the impact of this.
Make plantbased plastics, plantbased diesel, etc etc has a huge impact on food production and costs even more forests...
(like the poisoned kids that make the lithium cells for those "friendly" electric cars.)

I'm afraid I have to totally agree with the lithium / cobalt issues. Plant-based is indeed also dangerous depending on your source. They could use algae though.

[zephyr1934]

On 12/13/2019 at 2:47 PM, Toastie said:

Honestly: They should not present it that way. Either they did not know about this issue - which makes them look stupid... not well informed - or they did this on purpose, which means they can't envision that there are people out there knowing about this issue, which makes them look stupid. It's a lose lose situation.

Nothing new about that, when they introduced the "buffers with plow" on the BNSF locomotive unless your surface was completely flat the buffer would literally squeal as it went over a ridge. Then when the introduced the Emerald Night, well there they got everything perfect (grin). But again, they are manufacturing for kids, not for a bunch of AFOLs looking for a sophisticated interlocking brick system. That's part of the fun, figuring out how to surmount the challenges of building with a child's toy. (grin)

 

 

On 12/13/2019 at 5:24 PM, Mestari said:

Can you elaborate in that? Some independent wheels are available? 

Btw this video makes me go back in time to that communication they gave us about technic Porsche and the gear sequence. They made it wrong on purpose to enhance our experience... Now I wonder what's next thing LEGO wants to blow to pieces?

As far as I am concerned the standard lego train wheels are second tier (be them 9v or RC/PF). The roller bearings have revolutionized my heavy trains. The basic idea is to use tiny roller bearings on train axles, there are a lot of different home built ideas (and that is where all this started) but at least two sites offer pre-assembled options,

BrickTrainDepot

and

BMR

Currently they use BT axles and lego RC wheels (which are now an endangered species), but as I understand BT is in the process of making new wheels for these, at which point the roller bearings should become a lot easier (the RC wheels have to be glued on, the BT wheels should just slip on). But all of the info on BT wheels are second hand, I might have some of it wrong or I might have accidentally made it up in my sleep (in other words, keep your eyes out for official announcements but until then, don't count on anything)

 

[Giottist]

Please relax.

I have the opportunity to test and compare the old axle type with the new one. The new is attractive to me because it offers red wheels. Since a couple of days they are offered by LEGO themself, you have not to rip a unbearable expensive disney train set. The test rig was a rather heavy hopper wagon from the 60098 set, one with the new axles, the other with the old ones: In original state the new axles show twice the friction as the unlubricated metal axles, but lubricated with a tiny speck of lithium grease the difference is nearly neglectable, even with lubricated steel axles.

Ok, up to now I have no comparison with the ball bearing solution but at the moment I think the new wheels lubricated with lithium grease is clearly sufficient for daily use. (Of course I bought a heap of ball bearing MR52ZZ from China anyway )

Ah, please do not use something like silicon oil, this stuff is only a mess and an attractor for dirt, dust and fibres.

[Giottist]

10 hours ago, coinoperator said:

For some reason people don't get the impact of this.
Make plantbased plastics, plantbased diesel, etc etc has a huge impact on food production and costs even more forests...
(like the poisoned kids that make the lithium cells for those "friendly" electric cars.)

Dear Coinoperator,

Please do not distribute unchecked claims. The danger of throwing around fake news is very high:

Lithium and cobalt for electric cars and other products do not use up rain forests. Lithium is gained from salt lakes using salt water unsusuable for drinking and irrigatring purposes. The actual protests at Bolivia are triggered by social unrests because a tiny minority takes all the money and gives nothing to the workers and general public. Here in Germany BMW and Volkswagen use cobalt only from certified producers mostly at Australia and definitely not from eastern Congo. Childwork is unknown there. I assume Tesla does the same. No orang utang or human child will suffer.

Using sustainable resources is a big issue in modern chemistry. Several customers of mine process plant oil to make chemicals (Since decades, this is not a new idea btw.). Since only one or two percent of the oil production is used for synthetic material the usage of plants does not affect food production in a recognisable amount. And there are a lot of projects to use carbon dioxide as a raw material to make more complex substances. At the moment fossil crude oil ist still too cheap, but fossil oil is a limited resource. Renewable organic stuff is not. At the moment LEGO choose sugar cane to get polyethylene, but there are a lot of alternatives, using either organic waste or even carbon dioxide (Together with renewable energy)

All in all it's a very nice idea from LEGO to introduce renewable raw materials to make the plastic for our parts. Sugar cane is the solution available now (but not the only one). But you can be sure there will be a lot of food neutral methods if they will become economic.

So please check claims before publishing. Thank you.

Another thought: The friction between ABS and polyethylene is higher than between metal and ABS but still rather low. The gigantic containment of the wrecked Tchernobyl reactor glides on polyethylene rails. 35000 metric tons would squeeze any wheel to junk but not theese PE rails which offers low friction even under this load. Lubricating the new wheels with a tiny speck of lithium grease will lower the friction to really low values usable for heavy and fast trains. This kind of grease do not affect both ABS and PE, there is no corrosion or wear.

Best wishes, Giottist

Edited December 15, 2019 by Giottist

[coinoperator]

1 hour ago, Giottist said:

distribute unchecked claims

your mixing things up.
Main part was about food production being sacrified for fuel and plastic production

Edited December 15, 2019 by coinoperator
typo

[coaster]

11 hours ago, zephyr1934 said:

But all of the info on BT wheels are second hand, I might have some of it wrong or I might have accidentally made it up in my sleep (in other words, keep your eyes out for official announcements but until then, don't count on anything)

The rumors are true; we have new wheels in process.  You should see them available shortly after New Year's.

[Andman]

I found a study from 2014 about saw dust infused HDPE. The test showed that HDPE-WOOD, which might be the same like HDPE BIO, is more vulnerable to moisture intake and susceptible to micro-organism attack. A comparison between ABS and HDPE BIO would be nice.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/281230008_Evaluation_of_Mechanical_Properties_and_Durability_Performance_of_HDPE-Wood_Composites

[andythenorth]

On 12/14/2019 at 11:43 PM, SteamSewnEmpire said:

When Lego changes the plastic formula in a major way, and all my old bricks suddenly become obsolete, I'm out.

Congrats, might be time for updating of a classic :)  https://www.lugnet.com/general/~1285/traumaticevents

[M_slug357]

On 12/17/2019 at 11:21 AM, Andman said:

I found a study from 2014 about saw dust infused HDPE. The test showed that HDPE-WOOD, which might be the same like HDPE BIO, is more vulnerable to moisture intake and susceptible to micro-organism attack. A comparison between ABS and HDPE BIO would be nice.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/281230008_Evaluation_of_Mechanical_Properties_and_Durability_Performance_of_HDPE-Wood_Composites

Just what we need.

Termites, of sorts.

Or, planned obsoletion...? 

[Toastie]

On 12/15/2019 at 4:29 PM, zephyr1934 said:

Nothing new about that, when they introduced the "buffers with plow" on the BNSF locomotive unless your surface was completely flat the buffer would literally squeal as it went over a ridge. Then when the introduced the Emerald Night, well there they got everything perfect (grin). But again, they are manufacturing for kids, not for a bunch of AFOLs looking for a sophisticated interlocking brick system.

There is - for me - a significant difference - and thus very new: That video was not made for kids. It was made for AFOLs. They may manufacture things for kids, but when they want to do research with EV3's, they should boldly face peer review. It was made with an attempt of appearing scientifically sound. And that is a very big difference. Most kids don't care about these things; there may be exceptions. But if I were to review this work for publication, my result would have been: "Reject, with the possibility of re-submission". Chances are, they would not take the risk of resubmitting.

As far as I know, that buffer was not publicly tested. The same holds true for the Emerald Night. They were thrown as is at "kids", who had to figure it out. Well, I guess most of the kids never did, but a bunch of AFOLs did, as far as I read the threads her on EB. But that does not matter: They came as is and that's it.

From an "end-result perspective" you are right: Nothing new. From an "approach perspective", I'd like to challenge that notion.

All the best
Thorsten   

[SteamSewnEmpire]

7 hours ago, andythenorth said:

Congrats, might be time for updating of a classic :)  https://www.lugnet.com/general/~1285/traumaticevents

So, trolling is cool so long as you have a blue name? Cute. Nice to see some double standards at play.

Edited December 19, 2019 by SteamSewnEmpire

[andythenorth]

On 12/19/2019 at 2:55 AM, SteamSewnEmpire said:

So, trolling is cool so long as you have a blue name? Cute. Nice to see some double standards at play.

Eh what?  This is trolling how? 

The 'traumatic events' post is a community classic.  Join in, have fun.  Enjoy your hobby. 

Edited December 20, 2019 by andythenorth

[MAB]

On 12/13/2019 at 3:36 PM, zephyr1934 said:

 

The design setup also favors the new wheels, there is almost no straight track traversed. So the fact that the new wheels turn independently they should perform better on mostly curves, especially with three weight bricks on each car.

Watch out! Soon they will be removing all straight track from sets, saying that this is because their new wheels more are efficient than old wheels on curved track ..

It also reminds me of washing powder/liquid adverts - wash whiter than ever - our new product is much better than the old. Or shaving razor adverts - 2 blades are better than 1. 3 blades are better than 2. 4 blades are better than 3. 5 blades are better than 4. ... so what they are really telling us is that for 30 odd years they stuck with an inferior system.

 

[monai]

A new test has been carried on by Freelug  about the new wheels, only in french but it is revealing about the truth:

https://www.freelug.org/spip.php?article3011

[Toastie]

Here is the conclusion pushed through Google Translator:

"Even if this new axle is more practical to assemble and its price and really more interesting, it is really less efficient than the old axle with the metal axle. For me it’s quickly seen, all the freight cars will stay on the old axle and for those I miss, I’ll buy old axles. Next time I’ll try on passenger trains to see if we really feel the difference.

To summarize, if you do not tow too many wagons and if you want to make wagons at a lower cost no problem, but otherwise it is better to buy old models."

Whatever that is worth ...

Best
Thorsten

[Daedalus304]

That is very unfortunate! Reliability is even more important to me than efficiency, really. If the new wheels were merely a little less efficient, it wouldn't be great, but I would not necessarily mind using some if need be.

But it seems clear now that, not only do these run worse, their performance degrades as well with use. If, after just a day or two of show conditions, they got bad enough to want to start locking up...

Yep. I'm going to have to stick with the old axles. Or, better yet, roller bearings! 

[BrickMusher]

Ball bearings are highly recommended!

I compared different sets of wagons with a 9V Engine and monitored the current-flow. The first results have been very clearly pro ballbearing!

 

On the other hand, if the new wheel sets showing signs of wear so rapidly, maybe its a good idea just to use them during a full exhibition-weekend and than send a complaint to the customer service and ask for replacement..... I guess TLC will only learn if they have to pay first?!

[zephyr1934]

Excellent report, thank you for sharing and thank you Freelug for the undertaking. Echoing some of the subsequent comments, roller bearings make the old axles look like molasses.

[Carefree_Dude]

On 12/18/2019 at 11:18 AM, andythenorth said:

Congrats, might be time for updating of a classic :)  https://www.lugnet.com/general/~1285/traumaticevents

This really needs to be updated for the past 20 years 

[Toastie]

1 hour ago, Carefree_Dude said:

This really needs to be updated for the past 20 years 

I really do believe that as well. But how? I mean, just look at the last entry - exactly that has happened ...

We would need very well-educated people though - and also use the English language in all its width and depth ... there are so many other things that appeared to be completely irrational to me. Which creates ample of room for nice, delicate, refined - fun.

Should we gang up and do it?

Just one example: The Mindstorm RCX1.0 (was it 1998?) had a 9V = or ~ input ... saving uncountable numbers of disposable batteries. Rechargeables sucked badly back then - and very soon after, TLG came up with the >improved< version 1.5 (the improvement was no external power supply anymore) and even with 2.0 ... and all they did was saving a penny/cent/whatever on a rectifier and some capacitors - and improve the firmware. Which runs flawlessly on 1.0 RCX. This was environmentally totally stupid. As well as stupid overall. Oh, I know: A kid of age 1 ... 10 could have used - things - to open the PBrick; unsolder the capacitors and swallow them all at once. Or swallow the entire PBrick + power supply. Which was still plugged in.

Again: For fun only. I do buy TLGs stuff and will continue to do so ... then do modify it (screw the purists) to make it - at least sort of - compatible with todays ... demands. No disposable batteries here anymore, but a lot of electrical stuff ... 

All the best
Thorsten

[Carefree_Dude]

36 minutes ago, Toastie said:

I really do believe that as well. But how? I mean, just look at the last entry - exactly that has happened ...

 

it would continue into the writers descent into madness as he starts to embrace the IP based lego sets and start to shun some of the more original lines like Alien conquest. The writer would also complain that bionicle isn't real lego, get horribly upset when it's gone, complain when it's back, then be upset when it's gone again. 

[izx]

On 2/5/2020 at 9:07 PM, zephyr1934 said:

Echoing some of the subsequent comments, roller bearings make the old axles look like molasses.

That's very true, but the linchpin is still the wheel holder (part 2878) and I doubt Lego will continue to produce them once the current City trains (60197/198) reach EOL. @coaster will you eventually consider making wheel holders to complement your wheels/metal axles?

Edited February 10, 2020 by izx