Has LEGO ever listened to AFOLs? If so, when?

[Vindicare]

2 hours ago, danth said:

I'm wondering something.

Certain people will tell us that LEGO listens to AFOLs all the time and that LEGO bends over backwards to please us.

Will those same people tell us, the moment we ask for something, that LEGO is 100% a children's toy and that we should never ask for or expect anything?

I only see that when it’s something that is all but guaranteed(as they have surprised us previously) to not be released, despite us AFOLs clamoring for it. With some of our wants we need to remember that. 

1 hour ago, pooda said:

DANG!!!!! You Sir are a genius. I was going to bring that exact point up. 

Yeah though. People see us as malicious and slam us for asking for certain sets, especially City sets. 

That also goes for when we recommend that something gets discontinued. 

What’s the “something” you’re referring? I’ve seen a lot of that criticism surrounding Trolls & Minions. This is where we need to remember, first & foremost, that it is a children’s toy...so us being upset that they got the license or how stupid it is, kids will most likely think differently. 

[The Brick Boss]

14 hours ago, Vindicare said:

What’s the “something” you’re referring? I’ve seen a lot of that criticism surrounding Trolls & Minions. This is where we need to remember, first & foremost, that it is a children’s toy...so us being upset that they got the license or how stupid it is, kids will most likely think differently. 

What do I usually criticize that's sold under City?

Edited December 14, 2019 by pooda

[deraven]

30 minutes ago, Vindicare said:

Certain people will tell us that LEGO listens to AFOLs all the time and that LEGO bends over backwards to please us.

Will those same people tell us, the moment we ask for something, that LEGO is 100% a children's toy and that we should never ask for or expect anything?

There may be some people that are being disingenuous or sarcastic/trolling when they pull that, but I think a lot of it is simply a lack of elegance or oversimplification in what they're trying to express.  Personally, I feel like these days LEGO has plenty of people on the inside that do just want to surprise and delight their fans (of all ages), but 95% of the actual output still has to make business sense.  So we get plenty of things that are very obviously AFOL-focussed, but I wouldn't say they "bend over backwards" to please AFOLs, and whether the AFOL % of business is 10% or 40%, that still means a sizable majority of their products have to make economic sense with the rest of the market, which is kids and families.  So more like, "They accept our input and are happy to please us when it makes reasonable business sense to do so, but the math just doesn't work out for them on some of what we want."

I think a good example is something like the Battle Packs. AFOLs (and certainly some younger folks) want to do army building and LEGO initially released some simple blister-packs of minifigs and a few accessories either with no set name or actually labeled as "Accessory" and a couple years later released some (castle, I think) minifigure packs that they actually called Battle Packs.  From the accounts I've hear they didn't sell particularly well, and they slowly morphed into the more kid-friendly and play-focussed battle packs we have today that generally include a small vehicle of some type in addition to the minifigs.  For the Star Wars stuff in particular there may be some licensing stipulations at plat as well, but I think the bigger picture is that it would be more economical for AFOLs to be able to buy packs of just the minifigs, the compromise is to sell them this way so it's still a reasonable way to build an army but LEGO also sells enough of them to the non-AFOL demographic with this format to keep them a part of their product lineup.  If they weren't listening to us at all we probably wouldn't have had those packs in the first place (and Jack Stone + Juniorization across most lines was the opposite extreme in that direction), and if they were bending over backwards we'd be able to easily order in bulk in multiples of 25 minifigs at a great price or something along those lines.

[koalayummies]

"Afols represent 40% of total Lego sales"

"Yeah ok, whats your source?"

"An insider"

"Anything at all to substantiate?"

"No"

"Ok well then its bs"

"Fine I just kind of pulled it out of my backside"

"Alright well then thats fine!!! :highfives and kisses: "

How could you let that go.

[JanetVanD]

About that percentage thing:

Just as "goodwill" is a tangible asset and can be factored into a business' nett worth, the market value of AFOLs to TLG may be calculated on more that just the sets we buy. 

Many, many AFOLs are members of LUGs and, as groups, regularly put on exhibitions, shows and special events to display their MOCs to huge general audiences. These LUG-run events present the LEGO brand and product in a very favourable light to a lot of potential customers. 

Fan events also often get local media coverage, effectively providing TLG with very valuable advertising that people will actually notice, a lot more than mere conventional ads. 

All this could (and should) be factored into any percentages TLG uses to calculate the financial value of AFOLs. I believe it is, as evidenced by the schemes such as LUG Support, Project Support, etc. 

[The Brick Boss]

1 hour ago, JanetVanD said:

All this could (and should) be factored into any percentages TLG uses to calculate the financial value of AFOLs. I believe it is, as evidenced by the schemes such as LUG Support, Project Support, etc. 

So you think it shouldn't just be products that determine our value? 

[JanetVanD]

3 hours ago, pooda said:

So you think it shouldn't just be products that determine our value? 

Absolutely. Our value as advocates is also an asset. 

[The Brick Boss]

17 minutes ago, JanetVanD said:

Absolutely. Our value as advocates is also an asset. 

So then if they did that, then AFOLs would definitely be in the 40 to 50% zone if Lego fans. 

[JanetVanD]

20 minutes ago, pooda said:

So then if they did that, then AFOLs would definitely be in the 40 to 50% zone if Lego fans. 

Quite possibly, although I'd go for the lower figure of 40 rather than 50 

[The Brick Boss]

22 minutes ago, JanetVanD said:

Quite possibly, although I'd go for the lower figure of 40 rather than 50 

Right

[LegoFjotten]

The only thing certain is that the numbers being thrown around here are pretty close to 100% pure speculation. @koalayummies had it about right...

That said, I do agree with JanetVanD that the AFOL community does a great job creating a positive buzz for LEGO with events & exhibitions - which LEGO acknowledges through through it support of LUGs, projects and exhibitions.

[The Brick Boss]

@LegoFjotten He's actually mocking me. I wouldn't pay attention to him very much. He's just trolling. 

[koalayummies]

3 hours ago, LegoFjotten said:

The only thing certain is that the numbers being thrown around here are pretty close to 100% pure speculation. @koalayummies had it about right...

That said, I do agree with JanetVanD that the AFOL community does a great job creating a positive buzz for LEGO with events & exhibitions - which LEGO acknowledges through through it support of LUGs, projects and exhibitions.

Yeah. It's been asked and answered on here over the years directly to those whom confirmed work for Lego and the answer has always hovered at or below 10%. Parents buying for their kids is the vast majority.

"I was at Walmart and saw someone pick up a set, look at it and put it back on the shelf therefore it is definitely not selling well" -type of anecdotal bull is just time wasting personal opinion made up nonsense and should never be touted as evidence or proof of anything despite that it is touted as such all the time.

AFOLs contribute a little under 5% of LEGO sales

What percentage of LEGO sales are to AFOLs?

What percentage of LEGO fans are adults versus children?

How much of Lego's total sales come from AFOLs?

"Far less than afols would like to believe."

@pooda Trolls don't link, trolls spout anecdotes and personal opinions as facts and then back away under a bridge when called out on them.

[icm]

Hmm, none of those links really said anything concrete either except for the single 5% number from 2010, and a lot of things have happened in the hobby since then.  So we're back where we started: speculation and hearsay.

I apologise for bringing up the question in this thread.  I hoped there would be some more substance to it this time around, but I guess not.

[The Brick Boss]

17 minutes ago, koalayummies said:

Trolls don't link, trolls spout anecdotes and personal opinions as facts and then back away under a bridge when called out on them.

Says the idiot who used a thread from 9 years ago. ????????????????????????????????

You're funny dude. 

Edited December 15, 2019 by pooda

[koalayummies]

6 minutes ago, pooda said:

Says the idiot who used a thread from 9 years ago. ????????????????????????????????

You made a claim with nothing to back it up whatsoever, got called out on it, tried to tell everyone not to talk about what you claimed, others didn't let it go because they don't have to and then you finally admitted that it is just your "feeling" that the number you spouted is significantly higher than the last reputable statistic. TLG is a privately owned company that doesn't have to release sales figures in order to placate adults on the internet to make them feel more special and important than they really are, so those are the last reputable figures that are available. The last reputable source happens to be 9 years old, that doesn't mean that everyone stopped having kids that like Lego, nor does it mean that a significant and unprecedented surge of adults are suddenly Lego-famished. 

"I know a guy who knows a guy" does not make a statement a fact, it is not reputable, it is not evidence. If anything there's a decent chance its a flat out lie.

Others are free to question your idea that adult sales have grown 35% in ten years to represent more than a third of TLGs sales. The only thing all of this explains is why you're always upset in the town forum that Lego isn't catering to your every desire; because you think that you're more important to the company than you actually are. You think AFOLs represent 40% of their total sales so they should be reading all the internet complaints and wishes and make it right for you.

TLG is a private company, they're in business to make money, they've been doing it for 87 years, they surpassed Mattel a few years ago to become the world's largest toy company by revenue and you think TLG is doing something wrong and doesn't know its own sales figures and market. Ok.

Edited December 15, 2019 by koalayummies

[The Brick Boss]

Well what are you gonna do about it? 

[Ecclesiastes]

2 minutes ago, pooda said:

Well what are you gonna do about it? 

At least you're going to stop the name-calling. There's no need to attack people personally in a discussion, you are free to go nuts on the content though.

[koalayummies]

31 minutes ago, pooda said:

Well what are you gonna do about it? 

Attention TLG: this guy is now going to tell you how to make your multi-billion dollar company even more successful.

Edited December 15, 2019 by koalayummies

[JanetVanD]

Okay, before people start getting seriously offensive towards each other, can we just agree that none of us know exactly how valuable AFOLs are to TLG (monetarily speaking) but we can make a partially informed and logical guess:

Probably less than we'd like to think but hopefully more than we realise. 

[The Brick Boss]

4 minutes ago, JanetVanD said:

Okay, before people start getting seriously offensive towards each other, can we just agree that none of us know exactly how valuable AFOLs are to TLG (monetarily speaking) but we can make a partially informed and logical guess:

Probably less than we'd like to think but hopefully more than we realise. 

I can respect that idea. 

 

12 minutes ago, koalayummies said:

Attention TLG: this guy is now going to tell you how to make your multi-billion dollar company even more successful.

Or.....how to make Lego City great again. Winter 2020 wave seems to be a great start. 

[Vindicare]

On 12/15/2019 at 1:15 AM, JanetVanD said:

About that percentage thing:

Just as "goodwill" is a tangible asset and can be factored into a business' nett worth, the market value of AFOLs to TLG may be calculated on more that just the sets we buy. 

Many, many AFOLs are members of LUGs and, as groups, regularly put on exhibitions, shows and special events to display their MOCs to huge general audiences. These LUG-run events present the LEGO brand and product in a very favourable light to a lot of potential customers. 

Fan events also often get local media coverage, effectively providing TLG with very valuable advertising that people will actually notice, a lot more than mere conventional ads. 

All this could (and should) be factored into any percentages TLG uses to calculate the financial value of AFOLs. I believe it is, as evidenced by the schemes such as LUG Support, Project Support, etc. 

But the question is what percentage of sales is AFOLs themselves that’s being argued. As long as I’ve been into LEGO as an adult, I’ve heard the number around 10% of total sales. 

[The Brick Boss]

1 hour ago, Vindicare said:

But the question is what percentage of sales is AFOLs themselves that’s being argued. As long as I’ve been into LEGO as an adult, I’ve heard the number around 10% of total sales. 

Wait a minute? Are we talking about sales or how big the AFOL crowd is in general? 

Because if we're talking about sales then I would be wrong in my 30 to 40% estimation. 

[meliander]

TLDR: There is no point in arguing over an exact percentage figures, because it won't change the TLG strategy shift towards AFOLs.

A little bit of my thoughts on the subject. Hope I won't anger anyone with my views. :)

I think that percentage of sales that AFOLs make for TLG is not a major factor (or at least not the only major factor) for them. Even if it was substantial as mentioned above, I don't think TLG would shift their focus from being a toy for kids first and foremost. Meaning that themes and sets that appeal to AFOLs would not dominate their line up. The reason behind that is that TLG has been in this business for a long time and they understand that the ideal strategy for any business is focusing on their brand - which helps to reach and hold on itself a potential buyer. Even though Lego is almost always purchased by adults, the ideal buyer for them is the kid that asked their parents to buy more Lego and then buys Lego on their own when they become an adult (AFOL). So they need to recognize these two groups as important. AFOLs are loyal, they help promote Lego brand and they purchase much more than an average non-AFOL parent or grandparent does. The more Lego sells to kids now - the more AFOLs they will "cultivate".

So when the questions is asked - are they listening to AFOLs? I think the answer is yes, but they don't "bend over". They want to know what AFOLs as a group wants and what they will buy - that's for sure. BUT. The number of AFOL's is growing (just because Lego sales have been growing historically and those kids who enjoyed Lego are growing up), but the number of non-AFOL adults purchasing Lego for kids is also growing. So AFOL's will always be an important group, yet a secondary group, because not all kids return to Lego, it doesn't matter what percent of them do - it's always a smaller group. TLG will not shift the focus towards them - deliberately. In other words - TLG is controlling this by their line-up of sets. At the end of the day - they don't care who buys the Lego set for whom, just that the set is being bought is what matters. And I think, they don't even have those percentage breakdowns themselves other than estimates or guessing. If I buy Lego at any place either than Lego.com - TLG doesn't know if I'm an AFOL buying it for myself, or if I'm a regular parent buying for my kid, or if I'm an AFOL buying for my kid :) They know sales for Expert sets, but they are not representative of the whole picture, because AFOLs purchase regular sets, too.

[KimT]

Well the LEGO Group has an entire department dedicated to the collaboration, support and stimulation of the AFOL Community - it's called the AFOL Engagement Department and they run the LEGO Ambassador Network, the Lead User Lab and LEGO Ideas. So I would certainly hope that's indication that the company listens. Another example of listening could be the dissatisfaction in the AFOL Community when the Chinese Celebrations sets were announced - that led to red flags being raised inside the company by the AFOL Engagement Department and that ultimately led to the end of regional exclusives as they are now to be globally available after 3-6 months.

Also it is estimated that the AFOL Community make up 6-8 percent of the sales. At least that is the number I've seen in one of the annual reports.

First and foremost the LEGO products are intended for the core audience - kids aged 7-12(-ish), but the LEGO Group has also stated that AFOLs are now considered a target audience and more will be done for the AFOL Community moving forward - and this adds on top of the products currently aimed at adults such as the Creator Expert sets, Star Wars D2C products and massive Technic sets (I am sure there are plenty other sets in this category).