Lego acquiring Bricklink - Problem with 3D-printed parts?

[Toastie]

28 minutes ago, coaster said:

Darth Vader saying, "I am altering the deal..."

Or Jake Blues (in my all-time favorite movie) saying: "So - I lied to her".

I agree with @Roadmonkeytj; hopefully they will. But I doubt that. It is less "will" - rather "rules applied", period. As I said before: This whole BL deal - well - smells. Badly.

Best
Thorsten 

[coaster]

Fortunately for me, a very small percentage of my sales come through BL, so in the end, it really won't affect me much if I do get the banhammer.

[ALCO]

They said they were going to purge my store too. I think they are just making a blanket purge for liability and are trusting each store proprietor to challenge. I emailed them back indicating which part of their policy I fall under and that I should be excepted. They were quite prompt in replying that my store was approved. 

[Pdaitabird]

1 hour ago, coaster said:

I keep having this image in my head of Darth Vader saying, "I am altering the deal..."

Well, TLG is in league with the evil empire (Disney)...

I hope your products escape the ban!

[M_slug357]

Ya wanna get real dark-future dystopian...?

I forsee either Amazon, Disney, or Tencent buying up our favorite brand....

”Dread it, run from it, destiny arrives all the same...” - Thanos

[bogieman]

I'm wondering when Lego will put their parts inventory on bricklink to compete with the independents. Could be a bad or good thing for consumers.

[Roadmonkeytj]

15 minutes ago, bogieman said:

I'm wondering when Lego will put their parts inventory on bricklink to compete with the independents. Could be a bad or good thing for consumers.

PAB BL store!

[Giottist]

17 hours ago, zephyr1934 said:

The day has come. After getting my eviction notice last week I just spent the past few hours clearing out the last of my custom parts on Bricklink. My non-custom items remain on BL. Meanwhile, I have a new store front up and running at my old URL, TrainedBricks.com . You should also see many of my parts showing up on BrickTrainDepot.com in the coming days. They already have a few exclusives of mine, like a set of instructions for my Amtrak F40.

Sigh. TLG demonstrates its power, nothing else. What do they gain? Reputation and respect? (I do not think so ...)

Thank you for starting your own online shop. The first measure was to bookmark it and the second was deleting the old BL bookmark. Same for chromed parts. Ou man, TLG

BTW, your rods are marvelous - I have still a couple large projects between drawing board and halfway to finish ...

[zephyr1934]

17 hours ago, izx said:

Hmm, I thought TrainedBricks had escaped the banhammer. Really like the new site layout though!

14 hours ago, Roadmonkeytj said:

I'm glad you two aren't just giving up though we need your contributions to our community

Yeah, with the extended period of quiet I was also starting to think that I escaped. While I had no desire to set up a new storefront, having now put in the effort I think it is a big improvement. So it worked out well, Bricklink gave me a venue to get up and running, making additions in an incremental fashion, and now that I am there I was able to step out on my own. I don't think I could have done it all in one step and I can't imagine launching a standalone shop with only a few items.

 

6 hours ago, Giottist said:

Sigh. TLG demonstrates its power, nothing else. What do they gain? Reputation and respect? (I do not think so ...)

I could imagine there are legal precedents here, e.g., if they passively let custom parts in to a Lego owned site it might create a loophole for clone bricks. I would think that they could set up a special path for approval, but they are a big company and do not have time to deal with dozens or hundreds of individual sellers. I would also imagine that it would be a money losing venture for them.

 

6 hours ago, Giottist said:

BTW, your rods are marvelous - I have still a couple large projects between drawing board and halfway to finish ...

Thanks for the kind words, and it is a great honor that I can help so many of you make such wonderful steam engines.

 

17 hours ago, izx said:

PS: I noticed the fake 3-axle train motor sides you have on Shapeways...do you plan to make those available yourself?

I can do them on demand. They are so stupid expensive to make that I have been reluctant to list them on my store. But if there is demand for them I would be happy to start listing them. Meanwhile, I have a few ideas that might bring the costs down but I have not yet had a chance to experiment. For the current design in black I probably cannot beat the price on shapeways. Unlike the rods, the motor sides do not generally require finishing, so that is a fine option. For gray, the shapeways gray is closer to dark blay (and is even stupider expensive) while the gray I use for the rods is close to light blay and I could fab for the price of the parts in black on Shapeways. So if you are looking for the three axle motor sides in light blay drop me a PM here or use the contact link on the new web page.

 

 

[SavaTheAggie]

I was given the notification, too, that my shop would be purged.  All I have are custom instructions, So I thought I would be safe, since the TOS specifically allows for custom instructions.

Per their direction I emailed the Bricklink admin contact and asked that my shop not be purged, since I was not in violation.  A few days later he replied.

After reviewing my shop, his concern was not the instructions themselves or what parts I used, but the copyright of the Locomotive designs themselves - the actual, full sized, 1:1 scale locomotive designs.

He didn't think the steam engines would be a problem because they would probably have moved into the public domain.  But the diesel engines he was afraid would fall under the copyright of the original... What, builder?  Owner?  That's a bit of a grey area I don't have expertise in. Builder for the shape, owner for the paint scheme?  I don't use any logos.  Maybe the names "Santa Fe" or "ALCO" is what's the problem?

He said he'd mark my shop to not be purged, for now, until the lawyers could look things over.  

In the meantime it's got me looking at alternatives.  I will admit the idea of having a fully automated purchase process where I don't have to email individual instructions does sound appealing.

--Tony

[izx]

On 1/28/2020 at 9:29 PM, zephyr1934 said:

[Re dummy third-axle decorative sides]

I can do them on demand. They are so stupid expensive to make that I have been reluctant to list them on my store. But if there is demand for them I would be happy to start listing them. Meanwhile, I have a few ideas that might bring the costs down but I have not yet had a chance to experiment. For the current design in black I probably cannot beat the price on shapeways. Unlike the rods, the motor sides do not generally require finishing, so that is a fine option. For gray, the shapeways gray is closer to dark blay (and is even stupider expensive) while the gray I use for the rods is close to light blay and I could fab for the price of the parts in black on Shapeways. So if you are looking for the three axle motor sides in light blay drop me a PM here or use the contact link on the new web page.

Thanks a lot for the clarification! Light blay would be very nice, although I would probably paint (or even black Sharpie) the outwardly-exposed portion of the rigid fake third wheel. Edit: just noticed in the dedicated thread that V2 of the sides solves this problem by allowing a real LEGO wheel. Since I don't have any especially valuable 9V motors, I'll try this hard mod on a PUP motor before reaching out. Edit: Now that V2 allows a grey frame with a real black dummy wheel, I'll probably get one set soon.

On 1/29/2020 at 12:27 AM, SavaTheAggie said:

After reviewing my shop, his concern was not the instructions themselves or what parts I used, but the copyright of the Locomotive designs themselves - the actual, full sized, 1:1 scale locomotive designs.

He didn't think the steam engines would be a problem because they would probably have moved into the public domain.  But the diesel engines he was afraid would fall under the copyright of the original... What, builder?  Owner?  That's a bit of a grey area I don't have expertise in. Builder for the shape, owner for the paint scheme?  I don't use any logos.  Maybe the names "Santa Fe" or "ALCO" is what's the problem?

That's truly bizarre. The physical locomotive design can't be protected by copyright (although a blueprint can), and any design patents on the exterior of a classic diesel locomotive--if a model, let alone model instructions, could even infringe those--are certainly long expired. All that's left are owner/RR trademarks...from this 2004 article about UP suing Lionel and Athearn:

Quote

OMAHA, Neb. -- Union Pacific Railroad has filed a lawsuit against two model train manufacturers, claiming trademark infringement and unfair trade practices.

At issue are U.P.'s current shield logo, its Building America slogan and its locomotive colors of yellow, gray and red. U.P. holds trademarks for the use of the designs and colors on products.

The lawsuit, filed in U.S. District Court in Omaha, claims that Lionel LLC and Athearn Inc. are selling model trains bearing the logos and colors and that those products could confuse or deceive consumers.

(AFAIK UP withdrew the lawsuit after an uproar in the model railroading community.)

It looks like your currently available instructions are free of references to any RR. Maybe ReBrickable's premium instruction service (with automated fulfillment) is of interest? (this would, IMO, also make your creations more accessible)

On 1/28/2020 at 6:12 AM, coaster said:

I, too, got the email notifying me my store would be purged.  I emailed back and explained I had prior approval, and they agreed to review.  I guess we shall see.

I keep having this image in my head of Darth Vader saying, "I am altering the deal..."

Hmm, from the very recent Bricklink AMA with TLG's chief marketing officer Julia Goldin:

Quote

8. Why does the LEGO Group object to the sale of customized (chromed, printed, engraved) parts that there is such high demand for from buyers?

We know this change in ToS has raised some questions. We made it because we have no way of knowing details about the safety and quality of custom parts, especially chrome ones. We don't want to curb creativity - but we also don't want to compromise on quality and safety, something we are obsessive about. We hope you appreciate the difficult line we're trying to walk.

This would suggest they intend to go beyond the letter of the TOS and disallow all custom parts.

Edited February 4, 2020 by izx
V2 of zephyr1934's three-axle sides solves grey dummy wheel problem

[SavaTheAggie]

Bricklink has removed all of my locomotive designs.  There is no future for my shop on Bricklink and will be looking for a new place to sell instructions.

--Tony

[izx]

1 hour ago, SavaTheAggie said:

Bricklink has removed all of my locomotive designs.  There is no future for my shop on Bricklink and will be looking for a new place to sell instructions.

That sucks, Tony. Babies with the bathwater...  Perhaps you could look into Rebrickable's Premium MOC instruction service? They do take a 10% commission but it's automated and your locos would be exposed to a much larger audience. 

[Toastie]

8 hours ago, SavaTheAggie said:

Bricklink has removed all of my locomotive designs.

 

On 1/29/2020 at 9:27 AM, SavaTheAggie said:

Builder for the shape, owner for the paint scheme?  I don't use any logos.  Maybe the names "Santa Fe" or "ALCO" is what's the problem?

In all their stupidity, did they give any "reason" for removing your designs?

I simply can't believe this. It is getting worse and worse ...

Good luck in finding a true AFOL new place for your shop and truly remarkable models, Tony!

Cross my fingers.

All the best
Thorsten 

[izx]

7 hours ago, Toastie said:

In all their stupidity, did they give any "reason" for removing your designs?

Reading the discussion over at Bricklink forums, the answer given to Tony for removing locos NOT associated with any railroad is apparently because the instructions used Big Ben Wheels! Tony suggested changing them to use LEGO wheels only and apparently that might be OK:

Quote

If the instructions show only LEGO parts and no mention is made anywhere of the custom brand wheels, then yes, you may relist them. But IP may still be an issue if you use names / trademarks of specific railroad companies.

Also ROFL at this from BL admins:

Quote

When you are buying instructions, you are essentially buying the set without the parts or box.

People with zero legal training are cleaning up BL on behalf of Lego. In an ideal world, it would be nice to see someone in the US take Bricklink to small claims court (no lawyer needed) over their nonsensical interpretations.

Edited February 14, 2020 by izx

[coaster]

At least you are getting a response.  I still have no answer on why my tracks got nuked.  I don't violate any IP or copyrights, LEGO was previously cool with it, and given that they have bought from me, I don't buy the "we can't check the quality" line.

I suspect they don't have a good answer which is why they're staying silent.

[Toastie]

13 hours ago, izx said:

People with zero legal training are cleaning up BL on behalf of Lego.

I am glad that you are pointing that out ... I really do feel the same. The replies from "TLG" are so weird - I have never heard that before.

But then - this is legal stuff. To me it appears as if that for many "issues" in this particular world of being paid by the minute, there is room for interpretation and agreements. At least this is what I have learned/experienced in the past.

Best
Thorsten

[Masked Mini]

43 minutes ago, Toastie said:

this is legal stuff.

More like fear of legal stuff possibly maybe happening in the future that actual legal eagles will have to concern themselves with. So better to knee-jerk over-react now before something maybe happens in the future and I need to explain myself and beg for my job. 
I feel for you guys. This corner of the fandom is getting pretty decimated by TLG with official neglect and ironfist handling of third party support. 

[Toastie]

1 hour ago, Masked Mini said:

This corner of the fandom is getting pretty decimated by TLG with official neglect and ironfist handling of third party support.

Very true. And sure: When you root-out everything the remaining "clean" soil can be newly worked over. However, as they say, you reap what you sow.

To me, BL has lost a lot of its luster. It becomes more and more a "clean" TLG place. For people who like that all is good, maybe even better than before. I'm much more into digging in the dirt for cool things. For sure BL has still a lot of very good offers - but again I do see some - interesting things:

BL is now TLG - at least this is what I understood and all the legal actions imply. Now, last week, I have ordered two new Technic Hubs (4I/O BL's# bb0961c01) for €22 each. TLG doesn't even show them on their S&H site. And I simply don't want to know what they will charge in the future; it must be waaaayyyy above €60. Just for comparison: TLG wants €49.99 for the Hub (2I/O, BL's# bb0892c01), which you get brand new on BL for €16. Of course this is OK, it is the free market, sure. But it makes TLG look like very, very, very greedy. Particularly because one offer comes from the website of the company and the other from a website the company owns; where the company goes berserk with regard to regulations, which "must be" invoked. 

Is that legally OK? It must be, but it looks - bad. On the Ghostbuster's bad scale that is (just as a refresher:

"There's something very important I forgot to tell you."
    "What."
"Don't cross the streams."
    "Why?"
"It would be bad."
    "I'm fuzzy in all good-bad things. What do you mean, 'bad'?"
"Try to imagine, all life as you know is stoppin' instantaneously and every molecule in your body is exploding at the speed of light."
        "Total protonic reversal."
"That's bad. Ok. An important safety tip. Thanks Egon!")

Best
Thorsten

[Masked Mini]

1 hour ago, Toastie said:

Just for comparison: TLG wants €49.99 for the Hub (2I/O, BL's# bb0892c01), which you get brand new on BL for €16.

Okay but there's an important factor you are overlooking here Toastie.
The BL seller is most likely selling the hubs at a loss compared to actual build cost. A BL seller wouldn't even KNOW the true cost of a part, only what they paid for it themselves. Their price is dependent more on what the secondary market will bear. And their cost can be defrayed by selling of the rest of the set, as well as acquiring the sets on clearance or sale pricing.
Those opportunities don't equate to TLG being greedy for charging a higher price on their own shop site.

 

1 hour ago, Toastie said:

. Particularly because one offer comes from the website of the company and the other from a website the company owns

They own the marketsquare but not the individual stalls selling goods. That is a huge difference to S@H where it's more like a department store like maybe… Karstadt (if they still exist and i spelled it right).

1 hour ago, Toastie said:

where the company goes berserk with regard to regulations, which "must be" invoked. 

A lot of the new regulations make real business (law) sense.
Some are insane, like the Train instructions being taken down for looking like real trains. Building real trains is kinda the friggin point here people TLG!
The track being taken down after being approved is only explainable as someone shooting their mouth off okaying it without the authority to make that call stick. 

[coaster]

5 minutes ago, Masked Mini said:

The track being taken down after being approved is only explainable as someone shooting their mouth off okaying it without the authority to make that call stick. 

Maybe that's the case.  Or maybe they changed their mind.  I'm fine with either, really.  As I've said before, I do very little business on BL, most of it is on my own site.  It's the unprofessional "ignore him and he'll go away" treatment that bothers me. 

[bricks n bolts]

Very upsetting the objection to even the mention of BBB wheels in Tony's MOC instructions as well as the deletion without notice.

BBB wheels should not be a target for them. They are not clones and not 'unsafe' as they are injection molded. The 'unsafe' argument I'm sure could be used against TLG's own items that BL sells that are no longer made, such as '70s transformers and battery boxes not meeting current regulations, etc..

[Masked Mini]

57 minutes ago, coaster said:

It's the unprofessional "ignore him and he'll go away" treatment that bothers me. 

Yeah. Unprofessional is a good PG-rated description for that.

Just now, bricks n bolts said:

They are not clones and not 'unsafe' as they are injection molded.

Valid sentiment but emotionally clouded. In this instance "unsafe" does not mean actually dangerous, but rather "has not been continually quality tested by TLG to be of equal or greater quality as expected of Lego branded products." 

3 minutes ago, bricks n bolts said:

Very upsetting the objection to even the mention of BBB wheels in Tony's MOC instructions as well as the deletion without notice

Totally agree with this. Hamfisted handling by TLG.

[bricks n bolts]

Just now, Masked Mini said:

 

Valid sentiment but emotionally clouded. In this instance "unsafe" does not mean actually dangerous, but rather "has not been continually quality tested by TLG to be of equal or greater quality as expected of Lego branded products." 

Well they initially gave @coaster an exemption on that basis. Again, old Lego molds/ components not made anymore (a lot of stuff on BL) will not be continually QA tested either by TLG so not sure how that can stand.

[Toastie]

1 hour ago, Masked Mini said:

Okay but there's an important factor you are overlooking here Toastie.
The BL seller is most likely selling the hubs at a loss compared to actual build cost. A BL seller wouldn't even KNOW the true cost of a part, only what they paid for it themselves. Their price is dependent more on what the secondary market will bear. And their cost can be defrayed by selling of the rest of the set, as well as acquiring the sets on clearance or sale pricing.
Those opportunities don't equate to TLG being greedy for charging a higher price on their own shop site.

Well, I like to challenge that (these - whatever they are called - are cool)

First of, I believe I got that part from the beginning - and this is not what I am shooting at. It's not about what a BL seller asks for. Clearly, other dynamics is more or less directing these numbers. It is more about the "appearance" to the public. Yes TLG owns the marketplace. So far this place seems to be "free" with regard to "what do I ask for - as shop owner - here on the market place" as compared to the >exact same< item at "Karstadt" (they are now Galleria Kaufhof Karstadt) - plus this market place is owned by the folks running Karstadt. I find that a little bizarre. And I was just a little concerned about a customer visiting S&H and then BL (OK, there are not that many. But hey, they play hardball so lets keep it that way: We do as well). The customer may and does not want to grasp the entire dynamics behind all that. It just looks "bad" and if I were TLG, I would take measures to alleviate this situation.    

See, TLG takes down Tony's instructions because of shaky legal "necessities", which can easily be handled in different way, on a shop to shop basis present on TLGs(!) market place. Much more work, but so much nicer to the world - and >not< as if were from The Dark Side. There is nothing that can TLG tell to >not< do it that way. They decide on how to handle this and not any higher authorities. In addition to all that legal crap, there is marketing. Particularly when you can make the decisions at your very own discretion. I have sometimes the impression that some people believe any legal stuff was derived from first principles, which are also holding the universe together. Most of this legal stuff we are talking about is made by TLG.

And lastly: I simply don't buy 49.99 for an electronic device that cost maybe €2 (max!) in manufacturing. Oh, I know: Development, programming, version control, stocking, and what not and so forth. Make it €7.99 (which it will never ever be - we work with companies making electronics for us: On a one-piece basis. Custom. It is cheap; China before Corona that is). In that case asking for 49.99 comes at least into reach - provided they have to distribute all these devices into the stores. Well, they do ship all the other boxes as well - so that would bring down that number again. It remains a rip-off.

Another example - I have posted it somewhere on EB earlier. But I am beginning to sense a pattern here (i.e., the pricing for electronic devices at S&H): The 10V DC wall wart power supply, which they still do sell or better have on the S&H website (https://www.lego.com/de-de/product/transformer-10v-dc-45517). For one: 10V is a joke. Every single LEGO device depending on a charger (e.g., the rechargeable PF LiPo, not available anymore; the LiPo's for the NXT' and EV3's etc.) can be charged with 9V or 12V power supplies, to say the least. That is OK; if they want to shit around, and customers don't know better: That is capitalism/marketing/"smart". But: 29.99 for a wall wart, which costs on any other Karstadt and the like stores around the globe at max. €/$10, AND knowing that they are shitting around anyways, is at best "cheap". And makes them look very very very greedy. Again.

That is what I was aiming at.

And: The difference between: "Tony is using BBB wheels: Out with it because of legal issues" is not that far away from: "€16.49 is violating any fair trade market rules (uhmm - we made for our market place) because ... uhmm ... the development costs were insane: We have to introduce punitive duties accounting to - uhmm - €34. I believe there are rather recent examples on the global market illustrating that

And finally: This very educated discussion is all fun to me. I am really enjoying it.

And never forget: I will buy LEGO as long as they exist.

All the very best,
Thorsten