Zerobricks

COPPA and Technic Youtube creators

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13 minutes ago, efferman said:

as far as i know this coppa has nothing to do with copyrights. Beside of that, my videos doesnt have any material of other people or companys. Only Lego can say: You are using Lego in your videos. Pay me for it:

yes, but you asked why don't you see ads on your video.

The COPPA thing may affect getting viewers drastically. As the article I linked says:

"In particular, child-directed videos will no longer include a comments section, click-through info cards, end screens, notification functions, and the community tab, all powerful tools for driving viewers back to a channel."

If you use youtube merely as a place to store your videos in an easily shareable way, then this COPPA thing probably doesn't affect you. But then you could use any other platforms which won't shut off your videos in some countries just because it uses a copyrighted music in the background.

Edited by Lipko

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I checked again.

1. My intention for audience is adults.

2. Lego might appeal to children.

So despite my will, I must choose all the videos as "Made for children", so they will not appear accidentally (??? hello Youtube ???) and push ads/comments in the face of the kids?

I thought by choosing this audience setting, there is some semi stupid filter, which will not list non-children set videos for children. (But than... how is it checked who is sitting in front of the monitor?) As I understand, I state my intention for audience - afterwards it is the service provider's (Youtube) responsibility how to handle the content properly.

This is again the perfect mess of lawyer talking, You can understand as you want to... Can somebody bring exact example how to proceed?

Edited by agrof

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The way I see this whole story:

COPPA is not about copyright or anything similar. This US law is about children's rights and privacy and it is not something new, has been around for a while.

On paper you need to be at least 13 years old (in the US) to have a Google account so theoretically no kids are using YouTube while they are logged in, but meanwhile Google promoted their platform to the advertisers as the best way to target kids. With this they admitted to track kids without parental consent, they received a nice fine of $170 Million. Now they want to push all the responsibility to content creators and also make sure that any video that has a potentially kid-targeted content will be totally featureless with zero tracking (no comments, no notifications, no info cards etc etc) therefore they can wash their hands. Btw they don't say that ads won't show on these videos, but they won't be "personalized". This basically means that advertisers will pay the fraction for these kind of ads.

Youtube gives you the opportunity to comply with the law (according to their interpretation), but that dumbs the service down completely, not even your subscribers will watch your videos unless they go to your channel on a daily basis. Since YouTube's algorithm pushes the content that has more interaction, these videos will be pretty much shadow banned. You can choose to say your content is not for kids, but then you're threatened with a $40k fine per video coming from the US. It is still unclear btw what happens if YouTube flags your video automatically and you disagree with it, I guess you'll be able to dispute but not sure what happens then.

The main problem is with the law - it is extremely vague without any clear definition. You can't and won't be able to tell what is exactly "made for children". The age limit in the US is 13, just image what can be interesting for a 13 year old kid. Basically everything about toys, cars, video games, movies, half of YouTube's current content can be affected.

The outcome is totally unknown at this point. If there won't be any clarification about the law and people really will start to receive fines that'll be the end of YouTube as we know it. 

 

 

 

 

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@kbalage Exactly what you said. :thumbup: All vids must be labeled if they are "child directed" but the language as to what applies is intentionally, lazily vague; YouTube is encouraging creators to consult a lawyer if they're unsure of how to classify content ( :hmpf_bad: ) ; and anything deemed "child directed" by the FTC that isn't thus labeled is subject to the $42k fine, regardless of the intended audience. What doesn't appeal to kids and young teens these days?

I think the FTC is still accepting statements from individuals, beyond their original cut-off date, due to the volume of input received? I expect there to be immense backlash to the whole thing. And I have never uploaded anything, for the record.

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Regarding the video they posted on their own channel, I see that as followed:

Even though we (AFOLs or MOCers) make video about Lego which has children as main target, we should mark our video as not made for children.
For exemple, Imagine that I publish a video about a complex technic moc. In my opinion this video isn't targeting children (as the US law sees it) because I'm pretty sure that most of the children that are under 13 won't fully understand the words and the complexity of what I have built. 
Therefore I would consider that my content is made for more mature (with more reflexion and knowings about the subject) people. 
Moreover I don't think that a child would like to watch a video where he doesn't understand half of the words/concepts involved. 

Concerning the monetization and the ads I can't really give an opinion as I do not monetize my videos.

I just want to clarify that my message hasn't the goal to lower the children, I fully aware that some of them will have the exact opposite reaction that what I have described.

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Just read the whole thread. Now what should I do, target kids or not?

I do not intend to make money with my channel.

Edited by Didumos69

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4 minutes ago, Didumos69 said:

Just read the whole thread. Now what should I do, target kids or not?

I do not intend to make money with my channel.

That's the 42.000$ question.

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1 hour ago, Touc4nx said:

Regarding the video they posted on their own channel, I see that as followed:

Even though we (AFOLs or MOCers) make video about Lego which has children as main target, we should mark our video as not made for children.
For exemple, Imagine that I publish a video about a complex technic moc. In my opinion this video isn't targeting children (as the US law sees it) because I'm pretty sure that most of the children that are under 13 won't fully understand the words and the complexity of what I have built. 
Therefore I would consider that my content is made for more mature (with more reflexion and knowings about the subject) people. 
Moreover I don't think that a child would like to watch a video where he doesn't understand half of the words/concepts involved. 

Concerning the monetization and the ads I can't really give an opinion as I do not monetize my videos.

I just want to clarify that my message hasn't the goal to lower the children, I fully aware that some of them will have the exact opposite reaction that what I have described.

According to google's interpretation of COPPA: videos targetted to kids:

  • Subject matter of the video (e.g. educational content for preschoolers).
  • Whether children are your intended or actual audience for the video.
  • Whether the video includes child actors or models.
  • Whether the video includes characters, celebrities, or toys that appeal to children, including animated characters or cartoon figures.
  • Whether the language of the video is intended for children to understand.
  • Whether the video includes activities that appeal to children, such as play-acting, simple songs or games, or early education.
  • Whether the video includes songs, stories, or poems for children.
  • Any other information you may have to help determine your video’s audience, like empirical evidence of the video’s audience.

 

Also, I think you can set this attribute on channel level and change it later. so to be safe, I set it to kids.

Edited by Lipko

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Thing is, I get that COPPA, a US law, applies to all content published on YouTube as that is where the company is based, where their servers are, etc, but the FTC has zero authority outside the US. So whilst they could get YT to take down videos or remove your channel completely - I struggle to see how they could enforce a $42,000 fine on someone in a different country...

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@Cut the Kragle if you upload anything to YouTube your content will be available in the US, therefore you need to comply with their law unless you can make sure your content is not available in that county.

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Just now, kbalage said:

@Cut the Kragle if you upload anything to YouTube your content will be available in the US, therefore you need to comply with their law unless you can make sure your content is not available in that county.

Yeah I get that, but really, what legal action can they actually take against someone in a different country. Besides removing their videos / channels?

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@Cut the Kragle the real problem is not with the fine from the FTC. The problem is that YouToube retains the rights to mark your video as "for kids" content and you will not be able to disagree. If the video is marked for kids then it is basically flushed down the toilet, no notifications, no comments, no recommendations, no viewers.

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I'm gonna play it safe, as bad as it is to loose community features and comments, it's not worth the fine. Unfortunately from a legal sense anything Lego could be deemed as a toy regardless of the scope or context, that puts any of us at a risk if we decide to mark as not for kids. I could show my content to any audience, while my demographics show 87% of my viewers to be over 18, what's stopping kids from using their parent's accounts or  ignoring age requirements. The other thing I am curious about is what if something isn't designed to be viewed by kids, but is? I'm guessing Youtube will take action against those, as the FTC is more concerned about a child's data. if that happens, I would rather have my content deleted from Youtube than get finned, I can move my content elsewhere if that happens. It's really unfortunate, this will basically kill any sense of community on Youtube for my interacting with my audience, it would just be a number, It will also probably kill any channel focused with child friendly content, as it wouldn't be profitable for Youtube, so it would be probably be pushed back in the visibility algorithms. I would be fine marking the videos as for children or some intermediate age group that would still allow for these features, but disable ad tracking.

Another thing that will be interesting, to see how it pans out. What happens to channels that are inactive, what if they never set an audience as they left YT years ago, could the FTC go after them if YT defaults content to be not view-able by children based off of some algorithm that could be wrong?

Edited by Tommy Styrvoky

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5 hours ago, sirslayer said:

I think this shared video explains it a bit 

This is a very nice, calm, clear explanation of the facts. I have very carefully listened to what was told in that video. To me, it appears to be clear - but is that really so?

Here is what I understood:

Mark your videos, where LEGO do come in sight (even at remote distance) as "for kids".

That's it, right? Or do I miss something?

(Take into consideration that on >real< average, my less than 10 videos get about 200 hits; the remaining 400.000 were because I used in one video a Hanna Montana song and in another one a Glenn Miller piece - certainly not because of visual content:tongue:)

Now: Where on earth do I mark my stupid videos as "for kids"? If it is THAT BIG OF A DEAL than there needs to be an equally BIG BUTTON I can press to mark it up. There is not. I cannot care less whether the videos are for kids or not - they are for LEGO enthusiasts. 0.1 year old or 100 years old - I - do - not - care.

Man. This internet thing begins to >really< get on my nerves. Well the supposedly so smart legal people doing internet that is.

The only one thing that I like about all this garbage: When you divide the FTC max. "penalty" by 1000 and round off, the result is 42. THAT is certainly not a coincidence.

So get ready, suck back a couple of pints, check for your towel, and be prepared to leave this stupid planet.

All the best and have a very nice WE!
Thorsten

EDIT: Just checked: The YT/Google AI has done that already! No comments, no ads, a void. As if they have blasted away all that to make room for a hyperspace bypass going directly through my YT comments section. Ooops: For the Google AI::sarcasm:.  I really do not want to get the EB forum in trouble. I mean ... forget it. 

 

 

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1
1 hour ago, Toastie said:

The only one thing that I like about all this garbage: When you divide the FTC max. "penalty" by 1000 and round off, the result is 42. THAT is certainly not a coincidence.

So get ready, suck back a couple of pints, check for your towel, and be prepared to leave this stupid planet.

Haha, so long and thanks for all the fish!!

I feel it is a catch-22, If I mark my video as "made for kids", it would be like saying that I think my videos are appropriate for kids. But I actually think that due to language, complexity, and themes, they are not appropriate for kids. But if I mark them as not for kids, I run the risk of going bankrupt. I will be screwed either way... 

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13 hours ago, Toastie said:

The only one thing that I like about all this garbage: When you divide the FTC max. "penalty" by 1000 and round off, the result is 42. THAT is certainly not a coincidence.

So get ready, suck back a couple of pints, check for your towel, and be prepared to leave this stupid planet.

All the best and have a very nice WE!
Thorsten

 

Or give every under 13 U.S. kid logged into YouTube a pair of LEGO peril sensitive glasses so they can't see the non-kiddie LEGO YouTube videos. 

glasses.jpg

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We should start an open video republishing platform where you can post (embed) a YouTube video and where people can leave their comments and likes. The platform is organized in terms of communities to which people can subscribe and it has its own open (publicly available) algorithm to suggest content. Posting a video is always done in a community, so the target audience is always clear. All posts are public.

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Another way to look at this....

Do creators want to participate in a business model that enriches Google by defrauding advertisers whilst simultaneously exploiting data generated by kids with no valid consent mechanism?

And whilst leaving content creators open to the risks of arbitrary de-monetisation, or total closure of account by YT with no warning?

Background

  • my kids have watched thousands of hours of (mostly) age appropriate YT content, where the ads placed are of no value to the advertisers (4 year olds don't buy cars, or anything much), but Google get the $$ anyway
  • popular channels such as Stampy (Minecraft) and Bushka (World of Tanks Blitz) have been arbitrarily de-monetised or banned by YT, with a murky appeals process, all the power is with YT

I'm not framing this as a personal moral question.  I haven't stopped watching YT personally.  Tech ethics is a very valid question, but is also bigger.

The localised question is: how much autonomy do you want to give up as creators compared to the convenience and revenue YT provides?

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So how would this fine of $42000 be enforceable at all for those who are not residents of USA?

Generally if you commit a crime online, you can be punished according to the laws of your locality, but I doubt COPPA-like laws exist, at least in similar enough form, outside USA so those elsewhere wouldn't be affected by it. Youtube can of course ban anyone but that's a different issue and wouldn't cost you anything except your account. In theory they could implement an EULA which required that whoever accepts it must cover this fine if it's issued to Youtube because of a video they uploaded, but I don't think it would be enforceable either, depending on the local consumer protection laws of the person in question.

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I really don't get this COPPA balls**t, it seems to me that YT are doing what big companies do best, make massive errors, get caught and then pass the blame onto someone else, in this case content creators, so they don't have to deal with the issue. YT are telling people to seek legal advice...so are Google going to pay for the lawers fees then because I sure as hell can't afford to pay thousands of pounds for legal advice??? I every much doubt Google would do pay that?

One thing I don't understand, when YT state "Made for kids", do they mean that the video is aimed at children or is suitable for children? Most of my videos on YT are either footage of my flights to and from Ukraine in April, a couple of videos from inside the Chernobyl exclusion zone and a couple of train videos. All of which are technically "suitable for children" as they have no content in them that is not suitable for children but not "made for children" therefore I have no idea what do to. One video has a eariler version of my LEGO lorry although that was showing that the Power Functions system does what in brightlight if you use if properly and since its LEGO is a toy I can understand if I have to mark that as "made for Kids". But the rest of my videos I have no idea.

As I said, this seems like Google are trying to pass the buck onto someone else to save themselves and so they don't get the blame. With the copyright issues, monetisation scandal and now this, isn't it about time someone made a proper alternative to YT that harks back to the way YT used to be like before Google got involved and screwed it up so some people don't have to deal with all the s**t that Google keeps throwing at content creators? As others have said, I don't get how the US government can't take legal action against me when I am outside of their jurisdiction and therefore US law doesn't apply to me. If Google enforce this, they should allow non-US users to block their content from being accessable inside the US. Regardless, I got enough to deal with at the mo, I dont need the threat of getting a $462000 fine because of Googles mistakes. If all else fails, I shall simply remove my YT videos on 1/1/2020 and upload them somewhere else.

Edited by MxWinters

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1 hour ago, howitzer said:

So how would this fine of $42000 be enforceable at all for those who are not residents of USA?

Generally if you commit a crime online, you can be punished according to the laws of your locality, but I doubt COPPA-like laws exist, at least in similar enough form, outside USA so those elsewhere wouldn't be affected by it. Youtube can of course ban anyone but that's a different issue and wouldn't cost you anything except your account. In theory they could implement an EULA which required that whoever accepts it must cover this fine if it's issued to Youtube because of a video they uploaded, but I don't think it would be enforceable either, depending on the local consumer protection laws of the person in question.

Maybe if your country has some trade agreements with the USA containing clauses covering those matters.  The US FTC went after Alexander Nix, a British citizen as part of the FTC vs. Cambridge Analytica LLC / Facebook lawsuit.

The EU have their privacy laws which are stricter than the US privacy laws.  Their GDPR define children as under 16 years-old.  Individual EU member states can lower it down 13 years-old for their country law if they desire.

 

 

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YouTube could have avoided this by just not collecting insane amounts of data like some creepy weirdo stalker that belongs in jail. This is all about data protection after all so if there's no data to protect there's no problem. But no, the billions they make in creaming off the top of ad revenues isn't enough, they want their extra data cash so screw the creators that create the content that advertiser's want to advertise on. YouTube and Google are like the southpark cable company (look it up) but with data, the creepy f**kers.

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Another point that no one seems to be pointing out, is that even if you don't mark your videos as "Made for Kids", technically you're not breaking the law. I mean the law in question, COPPA, is specifically about the collecting of data about children without the parents consent. So even if creators fail to mark their video as "Made for Kids" and children's data is collected, it's not the creators that are collecting the data. It's YouTube! So whilst YouTube request that we mark whether our videos are "Made for Kids" or not, even if we don't, it's not us as the creators breaking the law.

As far as I'm aware the actual COPPA law hasn't been changed (which is part of the problem, because it was passed in 1999 and is seriously outdated), so it hasn't been expanded to cover anyone else than the person or persons / company that are doing the actual data collection. How are they going to prosecute people for breaking a law when they haven't? I've been reading up about some creators that have been having talks with the FTC about this and the general consensus seems to be that FTC have no clue how YouTube works and is under the impression that creators are more involved in the process than we really are. 

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And If I set all my existing vids as private/non public, so they are still active on the existing links (eg. here on forum), but, technically, they should not be able to be found directly on YT, do I have to set them as "for kids"?

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