Bucket Wheel GBC Train Loader - build finished.

[doug72]

(Train GBC)  Bucket Wheel Loader Mk. 3

This has gone though several builds & strip downs until I am almost satisfied with the module.

Mk:1
Basic layout and drive system devised with wheel having eight buckets which I had used for a previous MOC, now dis-assembled.
(LEGO Black Shovel 5 x 7 x 4 1/2 with Hole/cross (18943 / 42196)
Drive from train was direct to two 16T gears engaged with the curved gear racks for a gear ratio of 8.75:1
Loading chute made with 4 lobe rotor to load 3 per bucket.

This failed as I was unable to get ball loader to synchronise with bucket wheel rotation.

My thoughts turned to how the Train rotary dumper was synchronised which used the magic number 21.

Mk 2:-
As per Mk 1 but with the drive for ball loader rotor taken from the axis of the bucket wheel but still unable to get correct synchronisation.

Mk 3: Success at last.

21 x 3 was the solution.

Train arrives and directly drives the bucket wheel in via 21:1 gearing which turns two 20T gears which engage with the curved gear racks. To giviOveral reduction is 63:1
140/20 x 24/8 x 36/12 ( 7 x 3 x 3) = 63

At same time the drive to the ball loader also starts using another 63:1 gear train gearing to match rotation with the bucket wheel.

Drive to the ball loader is 63:1 gearing using a 56T turntable with two 3/1 gears to get the desired 63/1 to match the bucket wheel gearing. ( 56/8 x 24/8 x 24/8) 7 x 3 x 3 =63

But only four buckets were loading.

Solved - 8 wheel buckets but only 4 lobes on the ball loading rotor.
Solution, speed up ball loading rotor using 1:2 step up gears so the ball loader loads every bucket.
Overall gear ratio to drive loading rotor is 31.5:1
Next step was to build the collection chute to deliver balls into the train ball hopper.

Tested and have some minor issues if too many balls are on the inlet ramp which tends to overload the number of balls trying to enter the wheel buckets. ( to be improved )

Last task is to set the train unit release timing.

One rotation of the bucket wheel with 3 balls per bucket = 24 balls.

If set train to release after 10 buckets = 30 balls per trip matching GBC rules.

Some images of the build below - a video will be made & posted later.

Biggest problem during the build was the 1/2 stud offset, both vertically & horizontally between studful & studless parts & axles.

Update:-
Train reverser gearing changed to 72:1 for the trip rotor with only in one trip arm which makes bucket wheel rotate by 9 buckets, carrying 27 balls per trip cycle of approx 24 seconds.
If more than three balls try to load per bucket then some balls escape, still to resolve this problem.

 

Improved ball loading control gate

 

Edited January 3, 2020 by Doug72

[Berthil]

Nice Doug! Looking forward to the video.

[doug72]

Ball loading chute modified and less balls now escaping !

Buckets able to carry 3 ball without any problems, any more tend to fall out before reaching the discharge chute,

This due to the internal shape of the bucket.  See video at 30 - 33 secs.

After running the video at 0.25 speed I noted the point at which excess balls fall out of the bucket if its over loaded.

Three solutions:
1/. improved ball inlet control gate to load only 3 balls per bucket.
2/. Install a seperate collection chute to catch errant balls and re-cycle them back to the inlet loading gate.
3/. Widen the collection chute to catch balls that fall out early.

Option 3/. adopted and catches 99% of balls in the system

 

Edited November 9, 2019 by Doug72

[LucyCol]

Hi @Doug72 I've followed your builds with interest, a solution to your dropped balls under the bucket run may be to tile it with these or something similar, as this may allow the next bucket round to pick them up.

[doug72]

6 hours ago, LucyCol said:

Hi @Doug72 I've followed your builds with interest, a solution to your dropped balls under the bucket run may be to tile it with these or something similar, as this may allow the next bucket round to pick them up.

Thanks for your comments,  When testing I had a ball jam in there, which resulted with balls flying everywere !!! 
Clearance is very tight but I see if can fit them. Idealy I need a curved concave filler that fits the radius required so that bucket edge just clears it.
I will make a mock up to try some ideas.
The widened collection chute is working well & catching balls that drop early.

One new problem, as train departs sometimes a late ball drops & misses the train hopper & drops into the train reverser and hard to retrive, have now filled in the  space between the track to make easier to pick up.

Edited November 9, 2019 by Doug72

[doug72]

PUpdate

Improved ball collecting ramp:

While further testing to sort out ball loading problem I noted the bucket wheel was out of sync. with wheel not stoping at same point each time train releases, causing some balls to drop and not enter the ball carrier. This due to train reversers 72:1 reduction not matching the bucket wheel reduction.

Still looking for a solution to the ball loading problem.

Bespoke 63:1 reverser now built, see images which show how. This will replace the existing 72:1 reverser.

Reverser with compact 63:1 reduction:

 

Edited November 11, 2019 by Doug72

[doug72]

Ball loading control gate.
After a lot of experimenting and failures I finally found a way to stop too many balls trying to enter the bucket loading rotor.
Tried various versions of a rotating horizontal disc with pins to transfer a limited number of balls to the rotating ball loader but none successful.

Either too many or only one ball at a time. Had many spectactuar jams with balls flying everwhere, still hunting for some !!
Loading speed was very slow so tried speed up gears but evereything ground to a halt if a ball jammed.

Finally settled on rotor made using knob gears and changes to stop ball jamming in the loading chute.

Some fine tuning done to stop balls over shooting the discharge chute as they drop from the buckets.

Edited November 14, 2019 by Doug72

[doug72]

Update and new video:

Module still un-reliable and reverted to the original 4 lobe ball loading rotor with moderate success.
Too many balls on the loading unit caused balls to jam or fail to enter each bucket.
Each bucket can hold 3 balls without any problems but if any more try to load and enter the bucket they either don’t load or fall out as wheel rotates.

Have now come up with a solution that allows only maximum 3 balls to load into each bucket.

This required a new rotor as seen in image made using eight LEGO Half Beam 3 x 3 Bent 90 Degrees with Curve (32249)

New ball loading rotor -  3 balls per bucket.

To synchronise balls loading into each bucket required speeding up the rotation of the new rotor by 2, requiring another 1:2 gear box in the drive chain.

At first tried a planetary gearing giving 1:4 step up to replace using two 1:2 stages, but rejected as too large and had high friction.

1:4 Planetary Gear box

The existing right angle / 1:1 adjusting gear box was replaced by a new gearbox with  1:2 step gearing with adjusting gear for timing.

Extra 1:2 gear box

New ball loading unit
New 2 lobe rotor along with axle with pin connectors prevents any more than 3 balls from enter the ball loading rotor.

Module now tested and consistent in loading only 3 balls per bucket without any ball dropping.

New Video:

 

 

Edited November 22, 2019 by Doug72

[doug72]

A puzzling problem

While checking that all my train units would work with this GBC there were occasions when the reverser tripped but train refused to leave the reverser.

Took awhile to find out why, the train trip bar on the opposite side of the train was hitting the black 36T gear preventing full movement and not activating the PF switch.

Whole reverser unit moved 1 stud away & now operates OK. This meant re-timing the bucket wheel.

Sometimes the last ball to drop onto the discharge chute would miss the train as it reversed and drop onto the reverser, ramp lowered at train end by 1/2 stud to make it steeper and now OK.

Edited November 20, 2019 by Doug72

[LEGO Train 12 Volts]

I could never build anything like that ... but I am always fascinated by the complexity of GBC mechanisms!

Great work!

[doug72]

On 11/20/2019 at 8:22 PM, LEGO Train 12 Volts said:

I could never build anything like that ... but I am always fascinated by the complexity of GBC mechanisms!

Great work!

Thanks for your comments,it  took awhile but finally satisfied with the build.

Biggest problem was building on a studded base plate and getting axles to line up both vertically & horizontally due to the 1/2 stud problem.

Especially pleased with the ball loading rotor which very reliable at delivering only 3 balls to each bucket.

Last problem is where to store this module !!

 

 

Edited November 22, 2019 by Doug72

[dunes]

5 hours ago, Doug72 said:

Last problem is where to store this module !!

Great module Doug.

We all have the same problem with our modules xD

When I'm back in train GBC Im going to build it too.

Edited November 21, 2019 by dunes
add

[doug72]

1 hour ago, dunes said:

Great module Doug.

We all have the same problem with our modules xD

When I'm back in train GBC Im going to build it too.

Thanks, now found a place on my shelves to store the module.
Currently converting my Though Rotary Dumper to a Input & output module instead of re-cycling the balls.
Need the large Lego Chain used for the reurn conveyor for another project.

Edited November 21, 2019 by Doug72

[LEGO Train 12 Volts]

11 hours ago, Doug72 said:

Especially pleased with the ball loading rotor which very reliable at delivering only 3 ball to each bucket.

I agree, your last version is the state of the art!

[doug72]

12 hours ago, LEGO Train 12 Volts said:

I agree, your last version is the state of the art!

Thanks, it should be useful for other GBC modules & be widened to transfer more balls.

[doug72]

New GBC Train Module: Bucket Wheel Loader. Version 2 Simplified. (WIP)

Following the acquisition of getting the new LEGO Angled Gear Wheel Z28 (4637 I have re-designed this module and made the gearing much simpler.

Gone are the two 56T turntables for the train reverser and the ball loading rotor along with the large spread out gear system required to load the buckets in sync.

A test module was built to prove this would work, see image below.

Bucket Wheel:
Two 28Z gears drive the large gear curved gear racks which gives a 5: 1 reduction.

Drive from the train unit to the 28Z gears is 9:1giving an overall reduction of 45:1 (140/28 x 24/8 x 24/8 = 45)

Train Reverser:
40T gear used to turn the trip arm. A 40T gear with a 8T gear also gives 5:1 reduction. (40/8 x 24/8 x 24/8 = 45).

Ball loading rotor:
This is driven from the axle for the 40T reverser trip rotor and via a new combined right angle drive with two stage 1:4 step up gears & synchronises the bucket loading with the train release.

Combined right angle gear box with 1:4 step up

New gearbox uses built using three LEGO V-engine Block Connector (28840 / 32333) to replace the one seen in the image above.

 

Built up axles are used instead of long axles due to eliminate any twisting when using long axles.

Module to be re-built using the original bucket wheel with the new gearing arrangement.

Edited November 28, 2019 by Doug72
Images re-sized.

[doug72]

Update: bucket wheel loader using 28Z gears succesful

Version 1:-
Test rig proven using the new 28Z gears but difficult to set timing due to gear back lash and long drive shafts with torsional twisting.
Also as the drive was taken from the axle for the trip rotor it was subject to variations of rotation as the trip started to act & had a big jolt when trip released the train.
Idea discarded.

Version 2.
Rebuilt using the bucket wheel from previous build .
Took a while to get the 28Z gear meshing which done by adjusting the large gear ring support rollers.
Best were 16mm diam. I made these by putting suitable size tires on 11mm dia. pulley hubs.

Next step was to arrange the ball loading ramp so just enough clearance for each bucket to pass without hitting the ramp.

Then Train reverser added and general layout of gears etc. worked out.

Bucket wheel gearing 140/28 x 24/8 x 24/8 = 45:1
Train reverser trip rotor with one lobe: 24/8 x 24/8 x 40/8 = 45:1

Version 2 gearing had  the 9:1 stage arranged differently - see image.
The 40/8 gears were placed after the 9:1 gears and before the step up gears.
This drove the combined right angle gear box with 2 stage 1:2 step up gears.

Again problems with timing the ball loading rotor due to gearing back lash which was approx 30 º making timing impossible.

So abandoned and thinking cap put on again !

Version 3:- success at last.

This time gearing made direct from the train drive.

A separate double 1:1 right angle gear box lines up with input and out put to the main timing gearbox.

This part which I don't yet have could also be used :- LEGO Connector Beam 1 x 3 x 3 (39793)

This was built within a box  using 5 x 7 frames:-
1st stage:  2 x 1/2 step up gears  (1:4)
2nd stage: 2 x 3:1 reduction gears (9:1)
3rd stage: 40/8 reduction gears (5:1)

ie 1/4 x 24/8 x 24/8 x 40/8 = 11.25:1

This gives the correct reduction of which synchronises the loading of each bucket with wheel rotation & train reverser.

By placing the large 40T gear close to the axle for the ball loading rotor gear back lash has almost been eliminated.

Final connection between 40T gear and rotor axle uses two uni-couplings to because  the half stud problem
The uni-coupling were reinforced by small O rings to prevent the bushes cracking.

After setting the timing and some minor adjustments to the ball input ramp the module is working OK.

Some tidying up to do and some more proof testing before I make a new video.

PS:  all the gear ratios were worked out using pencil & paper with the aid of a calculator.

Edited December 2, 2019 by Doug72
image added

[RohanBeckett]

11 hours ago, Doug72 said:

PS:  all the gear ratios were worked out using pencil & paper with the aid of a calculator.

Oh you young whippersnapper.. I expected a slide rule!!

[doug72]

8 minutes ago, RohanBeckett said:

Oh you young whippersnapper.. I expected a slide rule!!

I still have one lurking somewhere but no longer remember how it was used.
All my training at marine college and early time at sea was done using slide rules and C/ens insisted you use the hated log tables to work out daily fuel consumtions etc.

[doug72]

 

[doug72]

GBC Bucket Wheel Loader Mark 1- Rebuilt and improved.
I decided to improve my test rig version, which used the white Visors as buckets. LEGO Visor 2007 (57702)
I only had enough for 8 wheel buckets, but buckets could be arranged in pairs to increase number of balls to 16 per wheel rotation.

Unfortunately it can be hard to find a supplier that has 8 balls for sale !!

I have now found a seller - "Down Under" - who has the number of white visors I need to enable me to build a bucket wheel with 8 twin buckets to transfer 16 balls per wheel rotation.
Just have to wait until the post from Australia the other side of the world. Postage was quite resonable.

Overhead view

Side View

As I did not have any more Z80 gears to hand , I used two Z28 Turntables instead to turn the large gear rings. (more Z28 gears arriving via Santa I hope).
 

Drive to ball loading rotor


This gives the required 45:1 reduction using two 3:1 stages plus 5:1
So the drives to train reverser and ball the loading rotor have to match this to be in sync and load balls 1 per bucket.

But only 8 balls would load into train hopper each trip.

Train Reverser
To increase ball load, extra 2:1 gearing was added for train reverser to give 90:1 reduction. 
Bucket wheel rotates two revolutions before train releases to carry 16 balls per trip.
If an extra 3:1 reduction ( 135:1)  used the train could carry 24 balls per trip when using single buckets. 
( 3 x 3 x 3 x 5 = 135:1) = 3 wheel revolutions per trip.

Train Reverser gearing

Ball loading Rotor:
This has 4 lobes and is driven from the axle driving the two Z28 turntables, plus 2:1 step up & 5:1 step down gearing synchronises it with the buckets.

I tried a 2 lobe rotor but it had to rotate at a higher speed to syncronise with each bucket but it tended to jam as an incoming ball could jam with the previous ball before it had rolled clear & dropped into a bucket.

Ball inlet hopper:
Balls would sometimes jam in the throat of the chute to the ball loading rotor, so an agitator was added to stir the balls - after a lot of trial & error settled on a thin 90º plate with curve, which works well allowing one ball at a time to pass through to the loading rotor.

Mk 1 ball inlet hopper.

Mk 2 inlet ball hopper with agitator.

Drive to ball agitator

Edited December 13, 2019 by Doug72
Update of info.

[doug72]

Now sourced extra white visors from Austrailia and waiting for them to arrive.

Images show how twin buckets look and how they are attached to the quadrant gear beams at the cross axle holes.

 

Edited December 15, 2019 by Doug72

[RohanBeckett]

thats hilarious.. a year ago, I was buying the transparent scoops from england!!

I do like your way of attaching them.. very neat!  I don't think I had many, or any of that part at the time, when I built mine

[doug72]

8 hours ago, RohanBeckett said:

thats hilarious.. a year ago, I was buying the transparent scoops from england!!

I do like your way of attaching them.. very neat!  I don't think I had many, or any of that part at the time, when I built mine

Agree:- Thanks, it was the only supplier that had  the number I needed, had no min. order and low postage.
I intend to modify the Mark 1 version to twin buckets and rearange the layout of the ball loading system to load two balls into the twin buckets.

Re bucket fixing: it is very rigid and balls roll out OK at the correct point.

I may also look at a scoop arrangement as per your GBC MOC which would simplify the ball loading and the timing gearing to rotate the bucket wheel would not be required.
Can you post an image of your MOC showing the curved collection section for picking up the balls.

 

Edited December 16, 2019 by Doug72

[doug72]

Extra white visors (buckets) now received from Australia today allowing me to improve the capacity of the bucket wheel to 16 balls per revolution. 
With train reverser making two bucket wheel revolutions before releasing the train gives 32 balls per trip.

Also got as a Xmas present lots of spare parts including eight un-ripe banana gears. and more Z28 gears to replace the Z28 turntables, much neater drive & smoother now.

Had to change how the twin buckets are attached to the wheel.
As shown in a previous post, the buckets would have fouled the support rollers, so gear rings had to be set further apart at 6L.

Wheel structure plus gearing added, and mounted on a 16 x 16 baseplate to check clearances & test rotation before final mounting on a 48 x 49 stud baseplate.

Next stage: add train reverser unit and and devise a means off loading the twin buckets - two at a time side by side.

PS:- i have decided not to use the buckets to scoop up the balls as buckets can hold 2 balls each but one of them will
always fall out before the other and miss the discharge ramp.

Twin bucket parts

Edited December 28, 2019 by Doug72
Image added