If Rise of Skywalker fails/under performs, how would that affect LEGO?

[Digger of Bricks]

On 10/29/2019 at 8:11 AM, Digger of Bricks said:

Deadline - ‘Star Wars’ Setback: ‘Game Of Thrones’ Duo David Benioff & D.B. Weiss Exit Trilogy

Variety - ‘Star Wars’: Inside ‘Game of Thrones’ Creators’ Exit and the Pressures Facing Lucasfilm (EXCLUSIVE)

Quote

Benioff and Weiss had ambitious plans to take the “Star Wars” universe in a new direction, one that would exist apart from the Skywalker family saga that comprised the franchise’s centerpiece nine-film series. The “Star Wars” period the pair was interested in exploring was how the Jedi came to exist. However, Lucasfilm executives and the creators begin to see their visions for the films diverge during meetings last summer. News that the pair had signed a massive $250 million production deal with Netflix was a signal to many that they were eager to explore other opportunities. It also brought pressures. When the pact was announced, Netflix said it was aware of the duo’s commitments, but insiders say they were also wary of waiting as much as four years for them to wrap up work on “Star Wars.” The streaming service wanted Benioff and Weiss to focus on creating exclusive movies and shows for them, particularly when they looked out at a streaming landscape that is growing ever more competitive with the launch of Disney Plus and HBO Max.

As relations with Benioff and Weiss curdled, the studio had begun taking general meetings with other writers on possible “Star Wars” pitches — it’s unclear if these were just sit-downs exploring other related productions in the franchise’s cinematic and streaming universe. The departure of the two likely sends the studio back to the drawing board with the future of the series more uncertain than it has been since Disney closed its $4 billion deal for Lucasfilm in 2012. This December brings J.J. Abrams’ “Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker” and with it the end of that nine-film series. Abrams has been one of the few directors who has been able to successfully navigate the Lucasfilm landscape, but he has a mega-deal with WarnerMedia that will likely mean he won’t be making any more “Star Wars” films. Rian Johnson, who oversaw the more divisive “The Last Jedi,” was said to get along with Kennedy and has maintained that he had creative freedom, but fans balked at some of his decisions. He had been hired to oversee a separate trilogy of “Star Wars” films, which remains in development, though it’s unclear how far along work is on the production. On the streaming front, in November, Disney Plus will release “The Mandalorian,” a series about a mysterious bounty hunter that is getting some positive buzz, and the company is prepping a show centered on Ewan McGregor’s Obi-Wan Kenobi.

However, Disney was clearly stung by the box office failure of “Solo,” a Han Solo origin story that led to the high-profile firing of Lord and Miller. In a recent interview with The New York Times, Disney CEO Bob Iger said, “I just think that we might’ve put a little bit too much in the marketplace too fast.”

[SteamSewnEmpire]

On 10/30/2019 at 8:30 PM, Digger of Bricks said:

Variety - ‘Star Wars’: Inside ‘Game of Thrones’ Creators’ Exit and the Pressures Facing Lucasfilm (EXCLUSIVE)

Quote

“I just think that we might’ve put a little bit too much in the marketplace too fast.”

Helps to have a script for a planned trilogy before you start filming, too. You know, so it doesn't turn out as a disjointed, incoherent mess. 

[Brikkyy13]

2 hours ago, SteamSewnEmpire said:

Helps to have a script for a planned trilogy before you start filming, too. You know, so it doesn't turn out as a disjointed, incoherent mess. 

If only someone had told Disney that in 2012 when they started working on the sequels.

[SteamSewnEmpire]

14 hours ago, Brikkyy13 said:

If only someone had told Disney that in 2012 when they started working on the sequels.

Hey, man, they're the pros. I mean, look how creative they've been in the past decade. So many new ideas:

[legolandia]

I am very underwhelmed with the first two films in the recent trilogy and hope that the third one is sucessful simply because I feel that if it isn't then it would damage the SW franchise. Disney should have gone either in the future or way in the past instead of sticking with the Leia/Han/Luke story. They simply decided to exploit that story because they thought it would be a good moneymaker.

 

I really would love to see a movie focussed on the Jedi order and the period when there were more than just two sith.

[Samppu]

1 hour ago, legolandia said:

I am very underwhelmed with the first two films in the recent trilogy and hope that the third one is sucessful simply because I feel that if it isn't then it would damage the SW franchise. Disney should have gone either in the future or way in the past instead of sticking with the Leia/Han/Luke story. They simply decided to exploit that story because they thought it would be a good moneymaker.

 

I really would love to see a movie focussed on the Jedi order and the period when there were more than just two sith.

Couldn't agree more on this. The two minute appearance of the old - literally old - actors was not worth to destroy the whole existing universe. If they had had some idea of replacement in their mind, it would have been at least a decisive decision (still a bad one to my mind, but a decision). I got the feeling that the people who made the decisions were really not interested nor very educated about the Star Wars universe.


- Samppu

[SteamSewnEmpire]

6 hours ago, legolandia said:

I am very underwhelmed with the first two films in the recent trilogy and hope that the third one is sucessful simply because I feel that if it isn't then it would damage the SW franchise.

No. That's not what you want if you want to save Star Wars, because Star Wars is definitely already damaged.

The root cause of Star Wars' problems right now are due to three figures: Kathleen Kennedy, and her pet dogs Rian Johnson and JJ Abrams (it's a coin toss which of those latter two has been worse for the franchise at this juncture; Johnson is subversive, Abrams is derivative. They're both terrible directors). Star Wars itself isn't going anywhere in the short term: the IP is worth too much, and Disney forked over a king's ransom for those spoils. But for Star Wars to change, significant personnel shifts need to be made in the management of the series... and that requires TROS to either bomb (which it won't do), or at least underperform based on Disney's internal projections. No matter what, TROS is going to make money - it just needs to make less money than what Disney bean counters believe it would have made if it wasn't being run by a hag and her yes-men. 

It doesn't matter if Star Wars goes off and takes some 5 or 10-year hibernation at this point - honestly, it would go a long way to healing some of the massive rifts that have developed in the fandom. And it would also allow Disney talking heads to take a long, hard look at the product and make some firm (and, hopefully, logical [based less on emotions or transient political movements]) decisions on where the franchise goes from here.

But to see this film do really well? It will ultimately ruin Star Wars, and further fracture the fans, possibly for all time.

Edited November 3, 2019 by SteamSewnEmpire

[montgocloud]

1 hour ago, SteamSewnEmpire said:

The root cause of Star Wars' problems right now are due to three figures: Kathleen Kennedy, and her pet dogs Rian Johnson and JJ Abrams (it's a coin toss which of those latter two has been worse for the franchise at this juncture; Johnson is subversive, Abrams is derivative. They're both terrible directors).

Correction: Bob Iger. Iger was the one who burned bridges with Lucas, Iger was the one who rushed The Force Awakens and ultimately compromised the foundation of the ST (Iger wanted May 2015, Kennedy wanted May 2016, they compromised at December 2015), Iger was behind Solo's rushed release. Iger has been a much worse influence on Star Wars than Kennedy ever has.

Also, you may not like The Last Jedi, you may even hate it, but to call Rian Johnson a terrible director is ludicrous to say the least. Watch Brick. It's one of the best movies of its decade and might have you reconsidering your opinion on him. 

Edited November 3, 2019 by montgocloud

[Sucram]

2 hours ago, SteamSewnEmpire said:

The root cause of Star Wars' problems right now are due to three figures: Kathleen Kennedy, and her pet dogs Rian Johnson and JJ Abrams (it's a coin toss which of those latter two has been worse for the franchise at this juncture; Johnson is subversive, Abrams is derivative. They're both terrible directors)

Now this is just silly. Both JJ and Rian, especially Rian are great directors. Rian has shown to be incredibly competent when given a great script, (he directed one of the best episodes of TV ever, Ozymandias) or when he writes his own script not based around a pre existing entity (Looper, Lights Out). JJ isn't as good as Rian but still directed very well in The Force Awakens as well as the Star Trek reboot. The problem is the script, which I suppose is Rian's fault in TLJ's case, and definitely JJ's with episode 7. JJ fancies himself a writer when he is not very good at it. He's a much better director.

[TwoSolitudes]

4 hours ago, LEGODrongo01 said:

Now this is just silly. Both JJ and Rian, especially Rian are great directors. Rian has shown to be incredibly competent when given a great script, (he directed one of the best episodes of TV ever, Ozymandias) or when he writes his own script not based around a pre existing entity (Looper, Lights Out). JJ isn't as good as Rian but still directed very well in The Force Awakens as well as the Star Trek reboot. The problem is the script, which I suppose is Rian's fault in TLJ's case, and definitely JJ's with episode 7. JJ fancies himself a writer when he is not very good at it. He's a much better director.

100% correct. They invested nothing in the story. They spent no time understanding the boundaries of the world the characters lived in. They didn't bother to map out a logical consistent plot over three movies. You can make a great film with a great script and no money. But you can't make a great film with a bad script and a boatload of money. Get a decent writer and pay for a story first dammit. Sigh....

I'm pretending these films never existed. 

I hope the Mandilorian storyline is a good as the visuals....

[Digger of Bricks]

Screen Rant - Rian Johnson Confirms Star Wars Trilogy Talks Are Still Ongoing

Quote

When discussing his new film Knives Out with Deadline, Johnson briefly commented on the prospects of his new Star Wars films. Johnson didn't have much to reveal about the project but commented, "We’re still engaged with Lucasfilm and we’ll wait and see. No updates on it at this moment, but yeah.”

[montgocloud]

3 hours ago, TwoSolitudes said:

100% correct. They invested nothing in the story. They spent no time understanding the boundaries of the world the characters lived in. They didn't bother to map out a logical consistent plot over three movies. You can make a great film with a great script and no money. But you can't make a great film with a bad script and a boatload of money. Get a decent writer and pay for a story first dammit. Sigh....

I'm pretending these films never existed. 

I hope the Mandilorian storyline is a good as the visuals....

I recall these same conversations happening years ago when the prequels came out... and now the tables have shifted and the prequels are now regarded as misjudged masterpieces (they're not).I wonder if the same will be true 20 years down the line, when today's youth grows up and their views come into public consciousness.

4 minutes ago, Digger of Bricks said:

Screen Rant - Rian Johnson Confirms Star Wars Trilogy Talks Are Still Ongoing

Yep... same as usual. It seems like people constantly ask him if it's still happening. I think Lucasfilm is still plotting out release dates and Rian is enjoying making his own films, taking a break from the franchise.

[Digger of Bricks]

Just now, montgocloud said:

Yep... same as usual. It seems like people constantly ask him if it's still happening. I think Lucasfilm is still plotting out release dates and Rian is enjoying making his own films, taking a break from the franchise.

Personally, I'm hoping Disney will hold back from kicking off the next cinematic trilogy until at least 2024.

[Brikkyy13]

We can go back and point fingers at Bob Iger and JJ Abrams, but at the end of the day The Force Awakens was actually a good movie and most people loved it when it came out. I didn't really see anyone bashing it until South Park started making fun of it.

Rian Johnson is 100% the person to blame for the current state of the franchise. There is no hype for Episode 9, Rian killed it with his movie that did nothing to move the trilogy's plot forward that couldn't have been summarized by an opening crawl. 

When writing 7, JJ wrote drafts of 8 and 9 as well, but Rian came on board and threw away JJ's version along with it the hopes of a coherent trilogy. During the press tours for TLJ he said his goal was to "not make a good movie, but a good Star Wars movie," it's a shame that he doesn't understand what makes Star Wars different from other sci-fi franchises. That much is evident just by watching TLJ in the context of the other Star Wars films. The first warning should've been when he said there would be no time jump between 7 and 8. Right off the bat he hasn't given TFA enough room to breathe story-wise and the opening crawl is a rundown of what happened in 7 instead of setting up the context of the new movie. Within the first 20 minutes of TLJ Rian breaks every established rule of Star Wars cinematography - TLJ is the only Star Wars film to rely on slow motion in the action scenes (the only other examples of slow mo in SW are a few seconds towards the end of Rey and Kylo Ren's duel in 7 and the cave scene in 5). From there Rian proceeds to remove every Star Wars tradition from his movie in the name of "sUbvErTinG ExPecTatIOnS," but really all he did was make TLJ generic sci-fi nonsense instead of a Star Wars movie. TLJ has no "I have a bad feeling about this," no wilhelm scream and for some reason it doesn't even have a lightsaber duel. It's the only Star Wars movie to use flashbacks instead of the characters having an actual conversations, and don't forget that it's filled with anti-war and environmental propaganda.

[TwoSolitudes]

8 hours ago, montgocloud said:

I recall these same conversations happening years ago when the prequels came out... and now the tables have shifted and the prequels are now regarded as misjudged masterpieces (they're not).I wonder if the same will be true 20 years down the line, when today's youth grows up and their views come into public consciousness.

The primary trouble with those films was the acting/dialogue, the blatant play for kids with the awful, and sort of offensive, Binks character and the strange decision to play the all the factions as the worst example of racial stereotypes. (and the midiclorains- which ignored dumped after the first movie). But the story and the way it developed over the three films was good- that series is clearly connected, each film builds on the story from the previous one in a logical way. The ships are original. The story is original. Nothing undermines the world built in the original trilogy. George can't write dialogue, especially emotional love story dialogue- but he knows the world he is writing for.   

Huge huge difference. The prequels are not masterpieces, but they are OK and the 3rd film was actually pretty good (with the exception of the last Vader scene!). The new ones are worse in almost every respect.

Anyway I guess time will tell.    

 

[Arkeeos]

FACT: The Sequel Trilogy is the highest grossing trilogy of all time

FACT: The Sequel Trilogy is the most critically acclaimed star wars trilogy ever, and the 3rd most critically acclaimed of all time

FACT: Both films in the trilogy have 'A' cinemascores, indicating a good reception. 

[Sucram]

7 minutes ago, Arkeeos said:

FACT: The Sequel Trilogy is the highest grossing trilogy of all time

FACT: The Sequel Trilogy is the most critically acclaimed star wars trilogy ever, and the 3rd most critically acclaimed of all time

FACT: Both films in the trilogy have 'A' cinemascores, indicating a good reception. 

FACT: Episode 9 hasnt come out yet so 1 of those FACTS is wrong.

2 hours ago, TwoSolitudes said:

The primary trouble with those films was the acting/dialogue, the blatant play for kids with the awful, and sort of offensive, Binks character and the strange decision to play the all the factions as the worst example of racial stereotypes. (and the midiclorains- which ignored dumped after the first movie). But the story and the way it developed over the three films was good- that series is clearly connected, each film builds on the story from the previous one in a logical way. The ships are original. The story is original. Nothing undermines the world built in the original trilogy. George can't write dialogue, especially emotional love story dialogue- but he knows the world he is writing for.   

Huge huge difference. The prequels are not masterpieces, but they are OK and the 3rd film was actually pretty good (with the exception of the last Vader scene!). The new ones are worse in almost every respect.

Anyway I guess time will tell.    

 

The new movies are far better than the prequels (excluding rogue one). All the core components of movies are done horribly in prequels including dialogue, story, directing, visuals. The music is good, but that can only take a movie so far. The writing in EP 7 and 8 is miles better, and if you think it isn't, I dont know what to tell you.

[Arkeeos]

4 minutes ago, LEGODrongo01 said:

FACT: Episode 9 hasnt come out yet so 1 of those FACTS is wrong.

 

It is highly unlikely that it would change that fact. And it still doesn't change that they're 2 of the most critically acclaimed blockbusters this decade. 

[Sucram]

32 minutes ago, Arkeeos said:

It is highly unlikely that it would change that fact. And it still doesn't change that they're 2 of the most critically acclaimed blockbusters this decade. 

They both have a very high Rotten Tomatoes percentage bit thats just the percentage of critics who gave a positive review. Its not like all the critics gave it a 9 out of 10. They were well received, but not as masterpieces or anything.

[montgocloud]

6 hours ago, Brikkyy13 said:

WTLJ is the only Star Wars film to rely on slow motion in the action scenes (the only other examples of slow mo in SW are a few seconds towards the end of Rey and Kylo Ren's duel in 7 and the cave scene in 5). From there Rian proceeds to remove every Star Wars tradition from his movie in the name of "sUbvErTinG ExPecTatIOnS..." 

Also Ben Kenobi's death in the original Star Wars, but who's counting. My favorite argument: "the original movies don't count as precedent unless I want them to."

EDIT: also the wampa scene!

EDIT 2: also the original Death Star explosion! (compare that explosion to the destruction of Alderaan and you'll see it)

Edited November 4, 2019 by montgocloud

[TwoSolitudes]

3 hours ago, LEGODrongo01 said:

The new movies are far better than the prequels (excluding rogue one). All the core components of movies are done horribly in prequels including dialogue, story, directing, visuals. The music is good, but that can only take a movie so far. The writing in EP 7 and 8 is miles better, and if you think it isn't, I dont know what to tell you.

Just LOL to that.

"Lets do a new hope again. But everything wildly exaggerated! Awesome! we won't need to hire a writer at all!"

"OK now lets just ignore everything from the last film and all the character development from the original films and just wing it. Random scenes and people who's story lines go nowhere. Slow motion chase scenes that make so little sense that my 7 year old thought they were stupid. Even more exaggeration! Kill off key characters from the last film just for the hell of it. Open with a slapstick comedy routine about someones mother! No one will care! Awesome! we don't need to hire a writer at all!"

and love how you exclude the one recent film that DOES have a consistent logical story in line with the Star Wars world parameters. RO was a great film. 

Quote

 

FACT: The Sequel Trilogy is the most critically acclaimed star wars trilogy ever, and the 3rd most critically acclaimed of all time

FACT: Both films in the trilogy have 'A' cinemascores, indicating a good reception. 

 

and spit out my coffee LOL to that one!

I have a really nice bridge to sell you. All the reviews are excellent! 

Seriously through,  the Force Awakens I thought was going to be so great. The opening hinted at something new and interesting. When it turned out to be just a rehash of New Hope I was really disappointed. It was OK, looked great- but in the end it was just a sort of tribute film. The Last Jedi was a total mess. Worse that everything except the famous Christmas special. It looked great, but just made me angry. My 7 year old thought it was stupid. People went to see it on the strength of the brand, but that was a film without any center or direction. A lazy jab from Disney trying to prove that they didn't need to invest anything in the story to grab cash. Without the SW brand it would have completely bombed. I did really like the design of the bomber. 

I really really hope this new one is at least average. But I have very little faith. I'll go see it, but my kids no longer have any interest in SW. 

Now the Mandilorian on the other hand looks fantastic. I am pretty invested in that one being great and restoring some faith in the franchise. But the main film series needs to go away for a decade to get the bitter taste out of everyone's mouth.

Lego will be fine either way. If this one is horrible, they still have the Mandilorian and the last season of Clone Wars as opportunities to build interest and introduce new vehicles and settings. They might even do better in the long run with a less frequent SW release cycle. 

Anyway I guess we agree to disagree. We can come back in 10 years and see how history treats these films. 

 

[tfcrafter]

bUt hOw wOuLd tHaT aFfEcT lEgO?????????????

 

Seriously, only one mention of Lego on this page of a thread asking how Lego's sales will be affected

Predictably, this thread has become even more of a cancerous cesspool of crapposting Sequel Trilogy haters and defenders. I mean this is all fun to read and I love people being so upset/fired up at two movies but please stick to the topic for crying out loud. If you don't like the movies then that's ok, if you love them then that's ok too, we're discussing the hypothetical of toy sales, not why "Kathleen Kennedy ruined Star Wars" or why "JJ Abrams is a horrible director" or why "the sequel trilogy is the greatest cinematic masterpiece ever made." Y'all need to relax.

Personally I don't think Lego's sales will really be affected at all, Star Wars has had a resurgence in recent years, and given how much more effort is being put into marketing TROS rather than, say, Solo, I think consumers will still buy into the brand. Even if sequel trilogy sets don't sell as well, Lego still makes an decent amount of OT/PT stuff (20th anniversary sets for example).

Edited November 4, 2019 by tfcrafter

[montgocloud]

2 minutes ago, tfcrafter said:

bUt hOw wOuLd tHaT aFfEcT lEgO?????????????

 

Seriously, only one mention of Lego on this page of a thread asking how Lego's sales will be affected

Because quite honestly the relative underperformance of the Star Wars theme has very little to do with adult fan reception of the series. Toys R Us recently filed for bankruptcy. Hasbro has been taking losses for years. LEGO has been reporting lower numbers for at least two years (to my recollection). This is a mere symptom of a much larger trend that fans are using as evidence to further their personal agenda.

[tfcrafter]

Just now, montgocloud said:

Because quite honestly the relative underperformance of the Star Wars theme has very little to do with adult fan reception of the series. Toys R Us recently filed for bankruptcy. Hasbro has been taking losses for years. LEGO has been reporting lower numbers for at least two years (to my recollection). This is a mere symptom of a much larger trend that fans are using as evidence to further their personal agenda.

EXACTLY. Thank you, finally someone who gets it. This thread should literally have not mentioned the screenwriting ability or directing ability of filmmakers because that's literally not the point.

Also there are other factors like trade tariffs that are making toy distribution more expensive, particularly in the States (Hasbro's released a statement addressing this) which could also be a factor in poor toy sales.

[Sucram]

2 hours ago, TwoSolitudes said:

Just LOL to that.

"Lets do a new hope again. But everything wildly exaggerated! Awesome! we won't need to hire a writer at all!"

"OK now lets just ignore everything from the last film and all the character development from the original films and just wing it. Random scenes and people who's story lines go nowhere. Slow motion chase scenes that make so little sense that my 7 year old thought they were stupid. Even more exaggeration! Kill off key characters from the last film just for the hell of it. Open with a slapstick comedy routine about someones mother! No one will care! Awesome! we don't need to hire a writer at all!"

and love how you exclude the one recent film that DOES have a consistent logical story in line with the Star Wars world parameters. RO was a great film. 

Ah, so you loved Rogue One. That makes everything youre saying make a lot more sense. I bet you loved all those really cool action scenes with Darth Vader and big explosions. And what about all those great characters who have no character? Like Donnie Yen's friend? Or 'Cassion Andor'? Or 'Bohdi Rook'? Such wonderful characters!

Oh wait, they die at the end! That must mean it's actually a really deep and emotional film.