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LEGO Collectable Minifigures Series 20. Rumors and discussion

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On 6/5/2020 at 3:54 PM, Karalora said:

Rumpled bags (and disease transmission) aren't the only problem, of course. With any sort of identification, you would still get people showing up as soon as the new ones are stocked and snapping up all the chaser figs. Any ability to see what the package contains would have to be accompanied by some kind of purchase limit.

I have never caught a disease from feeling blind bags. With your logic, I could catch a disease by picking up a big LEGO set and changing my mind and putting it back.

I’ve said it before and I will say it again and many more times I’m sure. The price of CMFs is justified. The first series had only printing on the front of the head (maybe back of the head too) and the front torso. Now we have front and back head printing on most minifigures, front and back printing on torsos, side arm printing, leg printing and some times side leg printing as well as dual moulded arms and legs whenever possible/appropriate. We also get more accessories; in the first series, the minfigure with the most pieces was made up of 7 pieces. In Series 20, the minifigure with the most has 13 pieces. So not only quality gone up but also quantity. Absolute bargain.

Edited by Anonknee Muss

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18 hours ago, koalayummies said:

The blind bag business model weaponises this collecting impulse through the gamble of the lucky dip.

It is not really anything new though. Panini and other brands have done stickers in blind bags for decades. At least with CMF, the toy is something complete that can be used instantly. Whereas stickers are less useful unless you collect every single one. Sometimes, the stickers are only just part of a larger picture and need the other part to make sense.

 

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11 minutes ago, MAB said:

At least with CMF, the toy is something complete that can be used instantly. Whereas stickers are less useful unless you collect every single one. Sometimes, the stickers are only just part of a larger picture and need the other part to make sense.

Additionally, unlike those stickers you mentioned and the sort of blind collectibles that Australian supermarkets keep running (mini products, Shopkins, Ooshies), I'd argue there's nothing about most series of minifigures that make them inherently go together as a set, encouraging many multiple purchases in order to complete it. So while in the product description LEGO says "X number to collect", and yes they come with a sheet showing the whole series that can be ticked, the minifigures still each stand on their own and even multiples are useful since they can be customised with other minifigure parts to make them not all the same. Many blind bag plastic toys are just the thing that they are, and their primary and perhaps sole purpose is to be collected as a set (and then forgotten about when the next series comes out to collect).

In any case @koalayummies, I did think the article about the addicting and gambling qualities of blind bags provided interesting food for thought, but again not all blind bag toys can be treated the same. Complaining mummy bloggers do nothing for me as a source, and the quotes you pulled seemed to stem more from single-purpose toys than from a customisable toy like LEGO.

If I didn't explain myself well, the barrier to buying up all of the desirable minifigures is time. Even for someone with 100% accuracy in feeling the bags, it still takes a long time to comb through many boxes to find the three or less copies of a desirable minifigure per box. I do see that as a significant barrier to entry for would-be scalpers and resellers. I did not mean that there is any barrier to eventually getting the minifigures one wants, though I'd also point out that this thread isn't a realistic population sample when it comes to how proficient people are generally at accurately feeling bags. Of course AFOLs on Eurobricks will have gotten pretty good at it by now.

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4 hours ago, Anonknee Muss said:

I have never caught a disease from feeling blind bags. With your logic, I could catch a disease by picking up a big LEGO set and changing my mind and putting it back.

Well, technically you could. Of course, the risk is extremely low, since large boxes don't invite the sort of intensive handling that blind bags do.

Germ transmission via shelved merchandise wasn't really something to worry about until COVID-19 became a pandemic. I think people are right to be a bit concerned--not panicked, but concerned--about the prospect of someone who might be infected without knowing it, putting their hands all over every bag in a display in order to suss out the contents, taking the ones they want, and leaving the rest, perhaps for a small child to touch only a few minutes later and then rub their eyes.

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5 hours ago, Clone OPatra said:

Complaining mummy bloggers do nothing for me as a source, and the quotes you pulled seemed to stem more from single-purpose toys than from a customisable toy like LEGO.

That's just revealing of your bias here because Lego is meant for children and parents are the ones who acquire it for them. Those are perspectives looking at the blind bag model from outside the narrow AFOL lens (which in this discussion comes across as a: "I got mine, screw you"-mindset). 

And the middle quote did specifically mention "my beloved Lego", indicating that parent is a fan of Lego themselves and still disheartened by the evil marketing strategy.

Edited by koalayummies

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30 minutes ago, koalayummies said:

That's just revealing of your bias here because Lego is meant for children and parents are the ones who acquire it for them. Those are perspectives looking at the blind bag model from outside the narrow AFOL lens (which in this discussion comes across as a: "I got mine, screw you"-mindset). 

And the middle quote did specifically mention "my beloved Lego", indicating that parent is a fan of Lego themselves and still disheartened by the evil marketing strategy.

Calm down. Blind bags are not "evil", thrill of the chase is a real thing, and can be quite enjoyable, rewarding, and satisfying. Some parents love complaining, that's not bias, it's a fact. Many of us don't see a problem with blind bags, either we feel them or we buy at random. And like someone mentioned earlier, get rid of the blind bags, lose what makes CMF interesting, as all the niche and out-there figures will be lost to the Ether.

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4 hours ago, ARC2149Nova said:

Calm down. Blind bags are not "evil", thrill of the chase is a real thing, and can be quite enjoyable, rewarding, and satisfying. Some parents love complaining, that's not bias, it's a fact. Many of us don't see a problem with blind bags, either we feel them or we buy at random.

Proving the above point; "I got mine so who cares?"

4 hours ago, ARC2149Nova said:

And like someone mentioned earlier, get rid of the blind bags, lose what makes CMF interesting, as all the niche and out-there figures will be lost to the Ether.

Yet another respondent ignoring previously proposed alternatives or just not bothering to consider anything beyond 'don't change what I like this is the only way'.

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36 minutes ago, koalayummies said:

Proving the above point; "I got mine so who cares?"

I don't always get the figures I want, so I'm not a "I got mine so who cares". However, I'm not gonna lose my bricks over simple packaging. If you don't like blind bags, fine, there's plenty of ways to get the figures otherwise, and no, Lego selling them direct will not solve anything. They'll say, "No one wants Vikings really, we'll just give them (insert random modern citizen #307) instead", and boom. There's a reason why only CMFs have Castle, Fantasy, and Space figures now. I wonder why that is.

The thing is, regardless of a few complaining parents on the internet, blind bags aren't going anywhere. Why get so worked up over something that really isn't a problem? Blind Bags can be fun. Sure, some people go overboard, but does that really make it "Evil"? I feel like you're making a mountain out of a mole hill. There are bigger problems in the world than blind bags.

And for the record, I've bought actual blind bag products. CMFs are ridiculously easy to cheat compared to other blind products. And don't even get me started on blind boxes. I can see how you can say it's a gamble, but some will just buy a couple blind products and call it good, and others will lose hundreds of dollars chasing one figure. Thing is, nothing will change that. I like the randomization of "What will I get this time?", it's part of the fun. For Lego it's different, but it's still a thrill of the chase thing. And like I just said, most of us (myself included) just feel for what we want, and boom, we save money. Even kids feel the bags, so they're not just wasting their piggybank dollars on the same figure 20 times.

52 minutes ago, koalayummies said:

Yet another respondent ignoring previously proposed alternatives or just not bothering to consider anything beyond 'don't change what I like this is the only way'.

And instead of actually contending my point, you straw-man me. :wink: If Lego did decide to change up the way CMFs are presented, I'm sure many of us will adapt to the change. But for now, this is how they're presented, so this is how we collect them.

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2 hours ago, ARC2149Nova said:

And instead of actually contending my point, you straw-man me. :wink: If Lego did decide to change up the way CMFs are presented, I'm sure many of us will adapt to the change. But for now, this is how they're presented, so this is how we collect them.

You presented a false dilemma, black and white fallacy, ignoring the fact that I already addressed that before you even posted it.

Quote

"get rid of the blind bags, lose what makes CMF interesting, as all the niche and out-there figures will be lost to the Ether".

So 'get rid of the blind bags=all the collectible minifigures go away', despite alternative methods of selling minfigures posited before you even replied.

2 hours ago, ARC2149Nova said:

There are bigger problems in the world than blind bags.

Thought-terminating cliche.

2 hours ago, ARC2149Nova said:

The thing is, regardless of a few complaining parents on the internet, blind bags aren't going anywhere.

Argumentum ad populum reversal; they are only few in numbers therefore you are in the right. Instead of trying to point out someone else's argumentative fallacy wouldn't it just be nicer to actually discuss?

2 hours ago, ARC2149Nova said:

and no, Lego selling them direct will not solve anything. They'll say, "No one wants Vikings really, we'll just give them (insert random modern citizen #307) instead", and boom. There's a reason why only CMFs have Castle, Fantasy, and Space figures now. I wonder why that is. 

Whats the argument there? They sell them now in blind bags, what about not being sold in blind bags would make castle, fantasy and space figures suddenly disappear and become undesirable? They're making those figures right now, why would those themes suddenly be gone if they sold the minifigures in a non-blind bag manner?

Very simply:

Lego does Direct to Consumer (you'll see it mentioned here on EB frequently as D2C). These are Lego products that are predominantly sold the Lego Shop @ Home website or in official Lego retail stores.

So hypothetically if Lego were to offer the Minifigure series via D2C, each figure is known, one can purchase whichever one wants, no blind bags, what exactly would be the problem with that from a consumer standpoint?

Edited by koalayummies

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32 minutes ago, koalayummies said:

So hypothetically if Lego were to offer the Minifigure series via D2C, each figure is known, one can purchase whichever one wants, no blind bags, what exactly would be the problem with that?

We can hypothesize about endless possibilities, but we also don't know LEGO's business and production model when it comes to the CMF. It's quite possible that stocking and selling each minifigure individually would dramatically increase LEGO's costs for the line (which would then affect the end product one way or another), or they'd mishandle it like they have with some of the most desirable D2Cs, and the army-building figures would disappear in no time never to return again. You simply don't know.

I hypothesize that making the figures blind bags allows LEGO to make more niche or "risky" minifigures than they would if everyone knew exactly what they were buying.

Personally I didn't reply to the "alternatives" you brainstormed because I'm more interested in just discussing the realities of the current product that is produced.

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Wow, just wow.

I fail to see the issue here. CMFs are sold as blind bags. So what? What's the real issue? "Evil marketing" is not a thing, but you (and Parents Anonymous) seem to think it is. I get it, some practices are a tad disturbing, but I fail to see the harm in a few blind packs. You deliberately ignore the attempts I make at contending your points with all this hand-waving. I honestly doubt you're attempting to debate in good faith. So, I'm going to have fun with this.

47 minutes ago, koalayummies said:

Thought-terminating cliche.

Oh, I'm sorry. Blind Bags are an extreme danger to our society, you're absolutely right. Something must be done. :sarcasm_smug:

47 minutes ago, koalayummies said:

Where are you getting this? You started your first response with "calm-down" and 'dont get so worked up'; where exactly are you reading this or what are you misinterpreting? I didn't take the bait but perhaps you want to consider heeding your own advice because it is rather telling to start a reply in that manner.

The thing is, you're the one constantly complaining on "bias" and "I got mine so screw you" and a list of other straw-man perspectives. You probably aren't upset, but you are passionate. No one's baiting you, simply telling you that it's not as big of a deal as you claim. That's not hand-waving, it's not a "thought terminating cliche", it's a fact of life. Blind bags exist. I understand if you don't like/support the practice, that's fine, but if others choose to support it, that's also fine. When it's all said and done, Lego's not changing how CMFs are packaged or presented, and this is just an interesting thought experiment.

47 minutes ago, koalayummies said:

It was rather obvious that you didn't actually want to discuss this, but the full acknowledgement here is appreciated.

It's rather obvious you don't want to actually contend the argument made, so this is appreciated. :wink:

A) I was parroting a statement I agreed with, and B) Lego can obviously pull the "it doesn't sell" angle any time it wants by controlling the release pool. They can point at the stats, tip a few scales in their favor and say, "Well you see? Outside of those blind bags, nobody buys anything Castle/Space/Fantasy related". We're not the only ones with bias, and we certainly aren't the only ones capable of deliberately misreading data.

47 minutes ago, koalayummies said:

Ah yes reversal of argumentum ad populum, they are only few in numbers therefore you are in the right.

I mean, are you saying that some people don't complain just to complain? I'm not saying you, of course, but some people search out issues where such problems don't exist. Okay, let's say for instance that it is a real problem, that blind bags promote gambling. There are good arguments for that, and it is an interesting discussion, should one choose to actively debate the topic. However, as a whole, how many little Jimmys and Susies turn to real gambling because of blind bags? An argument could be made against products made for kids in their entirety. Advertisements directed at kids have been the subject of many controversies over the years, for the same reasons as you're arguing against blind bags. It's an interesting topic, but by and large, how many people does it harm? I've been a kid who bought blind bags of random sorts, and I don't gamble. I'm not everyone, and I'm not even most people, but that has to count for something. Show me the kids who've been worse off for buying their Little Pet Shop figures, for buying the Imaginext and Playmobile and Lego blind bags, and we'll look at the data.

But for now, a few people are not going to really change anything. For every parent that fusses over Timmy's 1001 Shopkins figurines, there'll be at least 5-10 with no qualms about it. No one's right, no one's wrong. It's their opinion and that's perfectly fine.

47 minutes ago, koalayummies said:

You presented a false dilemma, black and white fallacy, ignoring the fact that I already addressed that before you even posted it. "get rid of the blind bags, lose what makes CMF interesting, as all the niche and out-there figures will be lost to the Ether". So 'get rid of the blind bags=all the collectible minifigures go away', despite that alternative methods were posited before you even replied. :wacko:

What I meant was that if you get rid of the blind bag aspect, the "Who will I get?" if you will, Lego will lose faith in the niche figures. Lego will still offer collectible designs, but there would be few and far in-between of the ones most of here value highly. CMF already has loads of essentially plain figures (i.e. the City designs), kids who don't feel might buy, say, 5 CMF packs and get the Sentai Hero, Viking, Scuba Lady, whatever. Cool. That kid might not have cared as much about the Viking/Power Ranger if they were in a clear pack. Maybe they would've, but who can really say. There are collectible minifigures of all sorts (Star Wars, Marvel, etc.) and most of those aren't blind, but they are quite rare. There's clearly a reason why the collectible CMFs are so easy-to-find, and it's because they are randomized. I didn't exactly explain my point well earlier, but there you go.

47 minutes ago, koalayummies said:

Lego does Direct to Consumer (you'll see it mentioned here on EB frequently as D2C). These are Lego products that are sold by either the Lego Shop @ Home website or in official Lego retail stores.

So hypothetically if Lego were to offer the Minifigure series via D2C, each figure is known, one can purchase whichever one wants, no blind bags, what exactly would be the problem with that?

One of two things will happen: Lego would either offer the whole series in one set, or the high desireables (if made), would go before anyone could sneeze, and voila, there's a supply and demand issue. If there's an issue with blind bags, there's no clear solution, at least not with CMFs and the problems others have raised.

6 minutes ago, Clone OPatra said:

We can hypothesize about endless possibilities, but we also don't know LEGO's business and production model when it comes to the CMF. It's quite possible that stocking and selling each minifigure individually would dramatically increase LEGO's costs for the line (which would then affect the end product one way or another), or they'd mishandle it like they have with some of the most desirable D2Cs, and the army-building figures would disappear in no time never to return again. You simply don't know.

I hypothesize that making the figures blind bags allows LEGO to make more niche or "risky" minifigures than they would if everyone knew exactly what they were buying.

This 100%

Edited by ARC2149Nova

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3 minutes ago, koalayummies said:

No one's seen the keychain rack at a Lego Store? 30 different SKUs all in one small area.

Impossible!

But...They're keychains! :laugh:

Saying they're minifigures is like saying a Christmas ornament is an action figure!  It's just not true! :laugh:

EDIT: Yes, I'm aware some buy the keychains and de-chain them, but not everybody will do that. 

Edited by ARC2149Nova

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12 minutes ago, koalayummies said:

No one's seen the keychain rack at a Lego Store? 30 different SKUs all in one small area.

Impossible!

Now you're just kidding around. Keychains are pre-designed figures and they're all characters that LEGO can feel pretty certain kids want. There's simply no comparison with CMF.

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12 minutes ago, ARC2149Nova said:

But...They're keychains! :laugh:

Saying they're minifigures is like saying a Christmas ornament is an action figure!  It's just not true! :laugh:

EDIT: Yes, I'm aware some buy the keychains and de-chain them, but not everybody will do that. 

Haha. What if they put a key ring on the bag's hang tag with the figure inside the bag?! :drunk:

I appriciate the discussion with you and everyone else. I have been going along with the blind bag method to get minfigures for a half a decade and I also don't see them changing from that model. It's just I would personally question my morality if selling toys to children in that manner and like to imagine another way.

On the upside I have seen one cool thing from this model. The one time I went to a Lego store on minifigure series release day there was a huge bag-feeling party where we were all figuring out the figures and handing over the ones we found that another was missing or desiring. But I've only seen that on that one release day, and some guys didn't want to participate in the quest.

5 minutes ago, Clone OPatra said:

Now you're just kidding around. Keychains are pre-designed figures and they're all characters that LEGO can feel pretty certain kids want. There's simply no comparison with CMF.

I'm sensing sarcasm but I can't be sure cause of the medium of communication.

Legoland-Discovery-Centre-Melbourne-Store-Keychains-1024x742.jpg

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4 minutes ago, koalayummies said:

(Picture)

Oof... :laugh:

But in all seriousness, Lego knows there are breakout CMFs, after all Keychains are made from the most popular figures, generally speaking. Shark Guy, Hot Dog Guy, and Bumblebee Girl are the definition of CMF Hall of Fame, both in popularity and scarcity on the secondary market. I'll admit, you'll find tons of CMF keychains, but again, they're different. Most people don't buy the keychains, because, while great backpack bling, they're limited in use among normal figures. I have bought 2 keychains, Rey and a Snowtrooper. Rey got all her printing wiped simply from being on my keys, and Snowtrooper is...somewhere. Point is, I don't use him at all. But also, you have to consider that Lego didn't know how those figures would sell before the packs dropped. Most of these came after their figures proper made acclaim.

Maybe Lego could flood stores with CMFs in clamshells, even out the distribution, and that would save us time in the feeling queue, but as @Clone OPatra said, who knows what sort of blowback costs that might have, both for Lego and the consumer.

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18 minutes ago, koalayummies said:

I'm sensing sarcasm but I can't be sure cause of the medium of communication.

Well I suppose I was being sarcastic about thinking that you were intentionally kidding, but the rest wasn't. And you just posted a picture of more figures that weren't designed for the keychain line besides the one with a unique torso and otherwise basic parts. There's no comparison between the resources that go into a line (CMF) with many unique moulds and new designs, and how those up-front costs are factored into the sale of that line to consumers, and a line (keychains) that takes pre-designed minifigures and slaps a keychain into them.

Let me just say that I've been enjoying the discussion though and there have been many interesting points made!

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1 hour ago, Clone OPatra said:

Well I suppose I was being sarcastic about thinking that you were intentionally kidding, but the rest wasn't. And you just posted a picture of more figures that weren't designed for the keychain line besides the one with a unique torso and otherwise basic parts. There's no comparison between the resources that go into a line (CMF) with many unique moulds and new designs, and how those up-front costs are factored into the sale of that line to consumers, and a line (keychains) that takes pre-designed minifigures and slaps a keychain into them.

I am aware that the keychains are all of figures that were made prior to being sold as keychains. The picture was posted to demonstrate that 16-20 individually separated figures could be done... from a store sales floor space aspect (Lego store, not Walmart). I understand that new molds cost tens of thousands of dollars averaging in the high 5-figures, recoloring existing parts to new colors is a process and the number of prints available to any line is usually limited for a number of reasons. What's crazy about that, and this is truly unbelievable, is that I learned all of that here despite the fact that I've spent five years just staring at the eurobricks.com/forum/index.php page. I do however slightly disagree with the notion that TLG making more of their most iconic thing is somehow risky.

Edited by koalayummies

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On 6/8/2020 at 2:52 AM, Clone OPatra said:

Blind bags might not prevent it entirely but they certainly create a barrier. Scalpers and army builders are going to scalp and army build, but when the bags are completely blind it's quite a time consuming process which I think ultimately gives the "rest of us" a chance to get what we want. If the minifigs were identifiable then those very desirable ones would be more likely to be gone in an instant and you'd have to quite literally get lucky that you arrived at a store when new stock is put out to find anything.

This is an interesting discussion about the blind bags in light of Covid. Personally I haven't ventured out to buy any of Series 20 in light of the circumstances, though now that the risk is significantly reduced here in Australia, I'm feeling more comfortable going out to buy some and just taking precautions like washing my hands very thoroughly afterwards.

Even in light of Covid I bear no ill will against LEGO's completely blind method in principle and don't think it has to change. I hope they never do a one (or less) per box figure again, and I personally haven't been enthralled with the products themselves as much lately, but the minifigures being unidentifiable besides through feel seems fine to me.

A lot of other "Blind Bag" lines solved the "squeezing and feeling" problem by putting a folded cardboard insert in the packet. So the parts are between the Cardboard and can't be really felt through the bag. Heck they could just print the little checklist/instructions on heavier cardstock and use that. 

 

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On 6/8/2020 at 7:52 AM, Clone OPatra said:

Even in light of Covid I bear no ill will against LEGO's completely blind method in principle and don't think it has to change.

Agreed.

I would just like to remind everyone it’s spelt LEGO and not Lego.

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Before the pandemic, a certain degree of spontaneity in my day-to-day life was essential. I didn't realize how essential until it was gone - no more aimless browsing at the library or bookstore, no more mulling over the menu at the coffee shop, no more making up meal ideas on the fly at the grocery store based on what ingredients were freshest or on sale that week. The fact that I now have to know exactly what I'm doing, and where, and when, at seemingly all times, has cranked my anxiety way up, without the release I used to get from the occasional pleasant surprise.

To that end, my therapist has challenged me to find new ways to get that process of discovery back into my life, and I hit on the idea of blind-bag minifigures. I have never bought them without feeling them up to know exactly what I'm getting, so now, for the first time, I'm just ordering some online, and I'll get what I get. I might even be inspired to build something new that I wouldn't otherwise have thought of if I were only buying the specific minifigs I wanted. (I also threw in a DOTS pack while I'm at it, for some surprise printed tiles as well.)

So while I can't speak to anyone else's experience, blind bags are helpful for my mental health right now, and I felt like that perspective should be shared.

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I am still curious to know why some people think ending the blind bags would effectively end the interesting genre-based figures and turn the CMFs into an offshoot of City alone. I should think it would be the other way around, since from what I have seen, the historical, fantasy, and other specialty figs seem to be the most popular among collectors.

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2 hours ago, Karalora said:

I should think it would be the other way around, since from what I have seen, the historical, fantasy, and other specialty figs seem to be the most popular among collectors.

If CMFs were a collector-only theme, maybe. But it's just as popular among kids as AFOLs, if not more so. Presumably, Lego likes to pretend that themes like Castle and original Space don't sell well, so they don't make them. It's been 7 years since Galaxy Squad and the last regular Castle sets. Of course, we don't know this 100%, but it's easily inferred. Like I mentioned earlier, they'll probably sell more of those niche figures if kids just pick up a pack than if the same kid just pick and chose.

Also, something I want to point out with the keychain comparison: Almost all of those are costumes. None of the interesting Fantasy, Space, etc figures have gotten keychains. Now, we all like the Hot Dog Guy, but those costumes are quite popular among kids, hence why they get keychains. Presumably those most popular among collectors (i.e. us) aren't.

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The yellow shield with the raven-emblem, was an instant love affair for me. I managed to acquire 5 of the knights from my local store, but I will definitely look around for more. Couldn't find any Vikings though, but I managed to find the Pirate. She has a really nice torso and you get two swords and an extra plume.

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11 hours ago, AViewToALego said:

The yellow shield with the raven-emblem, was an instant love affair for me. I managed to acquire 5 of the knights from my local store, but I will definitely look around for more. Couldn't find any Vikings though, but I managed to find the Pirate. She has a really nice torso and you get two swords and an extra plume.

The knight really is a great figure. His Torso and legs combined with different Brickwarriors helmets is going to be my castles royal guard :) On top of that the sword mould is gorgeous and perfect for Boromir from lotr, if you cut of the round thing at the end of the sword and glue a more fitting end from a custom weapon on it :)

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