[WIP] Datsun 240Z… slight modular approach

[MangaNOID]

hello Eurobricks

I am excite to start a new WIP thread for this project.

I have been a Datsun owner for 25 years (Datsun 510)

Spoiler

 

but after a long time rebuilding, modding, fabricating and spending a lot of money on a car it is time to sell it in the next few months due to a lot of reasons. it will be sad to see it go after so much time money effort etc but enthusiasm for such things doesn't go on forever. Especially with a young family.

so to lessen the blow when it sells I decided to put all my building effort into replacing the real Datsun I sell with a Lego one. albeit a 240Z not a 510 as I thought it may be easier to replicate and in roughly 1:8 scale. And why not start with the East African Rally version.

I began with what I thought may be the hardest part, the front axle.

What tyres to use? standard tyres in 1/8 is about 80mm x 22mm so I will be going with aftermarket RC tyres that match well with the original Rally car tyres. And just to keep it purest if I want there are the very old tyres from Lego from the chassis car that are about right too.

I tried a few mcpherson struts with the large spring but the scale was to far out and the scrub radius way off for my liking even though this will be manual model

  

 

inclination angle was spot on to datsun original but like I said way to big for the height of the car and silly offset of lego wheels.

I found a design that @Zerobricks posted ages ago with the smaller springs which was a good re-start but I had to line up the pivot points to better replicate the Datsun strut. The bottom pivot is only about 1/3 stud off from where it should be.

To keep the swivel part on top really low I use a turntable which is a bit odd looking but works well. Inclination angle of the strut is well similar to Datsun struts and mounting points line up to the Datsun chassis in scale.

 

 

steering is a rack and pinion just in front of the crossmember.

 

 

 

I'm trying to replicate this car as best as possible including the chassis. I dont want to build a lego chassis to fit the body on. I would really like to replicate how the real chassis looks as well. we shall see what happens. Strength of the engine bay is already concerning but will wait until the firewall is in place.

the outside panel work wont be too many panels and lots of gaps as I love to see the inner workings of technic models. I think for me the biggest challenge will be the bodywork. 

I have never attempted a car before because in Lego they didn't interest me too much but now I'm selling my real one I really want to get this to my satisfaction so it can be my Datsun replacement for when I really miss that Datsun feeling 

scale is coming along nicely I think.

 

 

and a shot of how the digital build is progressing below. I am missing a lot of parts needed so digital build is the best way for this for me.

I think I spent more time trying various headlight combinations/looks than I did on the front axle. Unfortunately a few system bricks are needed to satisfy myself but I will try to balance the use of system bricks out as this is not a scale model build but more a technic build with a few more details.

 

 

more to come as the weeks progress...

 

 

 

Edited February 11 by MangaNOID

[Zerobricks]

Great idea sticking the shock absorbers throught the small turntables!

Plus points for using Tumbler wheels, not many MOCS using those beauties.

I'm gonna be following this project very closely.

[Gray Gear]

This car was alredy made a while ago, as the B-Model of the Orange Porsche. You better give it all you've got . 

Just joking man, dont let me preassure you and just do your thing 

What do you have planned for the inner Workings? That engine does not look like it has any moving Pistons inside of it. 

An Inline 6 is pretty long, but that Hood is also pretty long soooo.... 

 

Also, watch out your model does not get too heavy for that suspension setup, a 1:8 car can get heavy pretty quick. A single Hard sping per wheel will compress quite a bit on a model >2.5 kg, wich you will probably end up with. Just saying.

[syclone]

Imo one of the most beautiful cars ever made. Very interesting solution with the turntables, the engine bay seems to be spacious and well detailed so far. Will be exciting to see the end result 

[jorgeopesi]

It is unusual to see something new with normal pieces, great idea.

[nicjasno]

Finally someone with a vision! I hope you give her caster aswell.

 

Also, make sure the steering links are paralel with the wishbones.

Edited September 20, 2019 by nicjasno

[MangaNOID]

15 hours ago, Zerobricks said:

Great idea sticking the shock absorbers throught the small turntables!

Plus points for using Tumbler wheels, not many MOCS using those beauties.

thanks!

I wont be using the tumbler wheels on the rally version, they are just there as a size reference for 80mm tyres. But in a JDM 70's style fat balloon rubber street version, tumbler tyres will work a treat!

15 hours ago, Gray Gear said:

This car was alredy made a while ago, as the B-Model of the Orange Porsche. You better give it all you've got 

That engine does not look like it has any moving Pistons inside of it. 

Also, watch out your model does not get too heavy for that suspension setup, a 1:8 car can get heavy pretty quick. A single Hard sping per wheel will compress quite a bit on a model >2.5 kg, wich you will probably end up with. Just saying.

That B-model is a beauty!

the technic fake engine is under all that system stuff with a small gap so you can still see the pistons. So far I like this look. we shall see what happens.

good point on the weight too. I need to keep this on one shock per axle weight limit for sure.

 

11 hours ago, syclone said:

Imo one of the most beautiful cars ever made. ......., the engine bay seems to be spacious and well detailed so far

Agree for sure! I never could afford one so got the 510. 70's engine bays are great so I need to keep that open look hopefully I can pull it off.

10 hours ago, jorgeopesi said:

It is unusual to see something new with normal pieces, great idea.

Thanks! Mcpherson struts are not regularly reproduced in lego for reference. I was quite well excited when I thought of this and it fitted all the necessary parameters, but doubt I'm the first in the world to do this 

8 hours ago, nicjasno said:

I hope you give her caster aswell.

Also, make sure the steering links are paralel with the wishbones.

even though this gave me a few more hours of work its great to have a WIP where you lot can point out things I may have missed. indeed the steering was not aligned vertically or horizontally.

here is my fixed version below. 30 degree steering angle. the only compromise is that the steering rack now sits lower than the cross-member, but I think this may be better than the previous setup with incorrect geometry.

oh if you can tell me how to get 2 degrees castor i'll put it in but otherwise that is a detail that I'm willing to leave out  although I will try putting in the tie rods for cosmetics!

 

 

 

 

Edited September 21, 2019 by MangaNOID

[Gray Gear]

Wow, I really like That engine  I did not even see the cyliders down there, my bad.

Reminds me of the Engine I did for my NSX, its the same style: Cover the cylinders up, make it look like the real Engine, and leave small gaps to see the pistons moving. Turned out great 

[nicjasno]

35 minutes ago, MangaNOID said:

oh if you can tell me how to get 2 degrees castor i'll put it in but otherwise that is a detail that I'm willing to leave out  although I will try putting in the tie rods for cosmetics!

I'll devise a plan. This thing deserves it.

[MangaNOID]

3 hours ago, nicjasno said:

I'll devise a plan. This thing deserves it.

well I'm not sure it can be done taking into consideration the structure/chassis that needs to be replicated but if there is anyone that could put castor onto here it is you, the master of Lego steering geometry surely 

 

4 hours ago, Gray Gear said:

Reminds me of the Engine I did for my NSX, its the same style: Cover the cylinders up, make it look like the real Engine, and leave small gaps to see the pistons moving. Turned out great 

yep that NSX is some good work there!

[nicjasno]

Here's the link to the entire galery: http://imgur.com/a/J1soFtO

 

Edited September 21, 2019 by nicjasno

[Gray Gear]

Wow, that is some advanced suspension geometry right there. Ackermann steering is achieved by having the steering links set up at an angle, right?

Also, there a few places built with quite delicate building techniques. I would try to beef those up. 

[Vectormatic]

clever using those small turntables for the top strut mounts!

[nicjasno]

18 hours ago, Gray Gear said:

Wow, that is some advanced suspension geometry right there. Ackermann steering is achieved by having the steering links set up at an angle, right?

There are many ways. In lego you have to be carefull with that because you don't have the option to fine tune the length of the steering links with a threaded connection.

Usually the ackerman is achieved by geometry. You can have the steering link either in front or behind the front axle.

If in front, the steering link pivots must be closer to the wheels than the main pivot, if behind, they must be closer to the cars center line.

Edited September 22, 2019 by nicjasno

[MangaNOID]

Just a quick reply for now @nicjasno

to say impressed is not giving enough credit!

to capture all the geometry and keep all the size limitations and half stud crazyness that I incorporated is impressive, again to say the least.

I will try to incorporate alterations into my model as I can not just copy and paste...it wouldn't be my model. I am not sure what I'll end up with but we shall see.

Perhaps you should build your own 240Z 

Thank you Sir!

 

[MangaNOID]

29 minutes ago, nicjasno said:

If in front, the steering link pivots must be closer to the wheels than the main pivot

In the setup I have (worm gear rack photo above)  above there is no akerman geometry, but if I put the steering link that is attached to the rack half a stud or 1 stud further forward of the rack itself then that limits the outside wheels turn in thus producing an akerman effect.

I thought that is what you achieved in your setup above? as the pivot point is the same parallel as the main pivot. 

[1gor]

57 minutes ago, MangaNOID said:

Just a quick reply for now @nicjasno 

Perhaps you should build your own 240Z 

Thank you Sir!

 

This could happen if he decided to combine 2 inline 3 cylinder pneumatic engines 

Sorry to be late to party, but perhaps you could use yellow which at the front (ignore this if it is answered since my mobile phone jumps over some posts and I can not read them)

Regards

[nicjasno]

Ackerman is overrated anyway. This setup will do fine. If you move the steering links so that they are not paralel to the wishbones, then you will get toe in, which will be even worse than no ackerman.

1 hour ago, MangaNOID said:

I will try to incorporate alterations into my model as I can not just copy and paste...it wouldn't be my model.

It is a concept, ofc. I have no idea how the rest of what you have planned looks like, but i had to design a bit of the front subframe along it, in order to have a frame to attach the suspension onto.

[MangaNOID]

10 minutes ago, nicjasno said:

It is a concept, ofc. I have no idea how the rest of what you have planned looks like, but i had to design a bit of the front subframe along it, in order to have a frame to attach the suspension onto.

no no your subframe is superb! and fills a lot of 240z dimensions. What I mean is that I don't want to copy and paste your design. I'd never learn that way. I won't take fish from you, you taught me how to fish  

 

13 minutes ago, I_Igor said:

Sorry to be late to party, but perhaps you could use yellow which at the front

Which yellow which? 

[nicjasno]

4 minutes ago, MangaNOID said:

no no your subframe is superb! and fills a lot of 240z dimensions. What I mean is that I don't want to copy and paste your design. I'd never learn that way. I won't take fish from you, you taught me how to fish  

There's much more that you will need to engineer here. Take what is good and don't change just for the sake of change.

Edited September 22, 2019 by nicjasno

[Gray Gear]

16 minutes ago, nicjasno said:

Ackerman is overrated anyway. This setup will do fine. If you move the steering links so that they are not paralel to the wishbones, then you will get toe in, which will be even worse than no ackerman.

It is a concept, ofc. I have no idea how the rest of what you have planned looks like, but i had to design a bit of the front subframe along it, in order to have a frame to attach the suspension onto.

On the model I am working on right now, I have the steering links placed behind the axle, and the links are offsetz to the back by 1 stud. I compared it to my NSX, which features a classic ackermann setup, and from what I can tell it has the same effect: The inner wheel gets angled slightly more than the outer one. I dont get how this is supposed to be worse than no ackermann....

[nicjasno]

Just now, Gray Gear said:

On the model I am working on right now, I have the steering links placed behind the axle, and the links are offsetz to the back by 1 stud. I compared it to my NSX, which features a classic ackermann setup, and from what I can tell it has the same effect: The inner wheel gets angled slightly more than the outer one. I dont get how this is supposed to be worse than no ackermann....

By doing this you have created a "toe out" situation, where your wheels point out on both sides slightly. Because of the toe out, you get a fake ackerman effect, but you have bigger issues, when driving straight forward. Add to this all the slack that you get in lego suspensions and it is not a great setup.

[1gor]

14 minutes ago, MangaNOID said:

no no your subframe is superb! and fills a lot of 240z dimensions. What I mean is that I don't want to copy and paste your design. I'd never learn that way. I won't take fish from you, you taught me how to fish  

 

Which yellow which? 

I was writing shock but I can not understand autocorrect on my phone anymore

[Gray Gear]

 

7 minutes ago, nicjasno said:

By doing this you have created a "toe out" situation, where your wheels point out on both sides slightly. Because of the toe out, you get a fake ackerman effect, but you have bigger issues, when driving straight forward. Add to this all the slack that you get in lego suspensions and it is not a great setup.

The wheels are straight my man. The lenght I lost by offsetting the links is regained by having the links horizontaly straight, while the wishbones are are going downwards. I know this might not be ideal, but it believe it is pretty good as long as the suspension is not giving in.

The real reason why I had to offset the link was to clear the shock absorbers anyways, not to achieve perfect steering geometry  but as far as I can tell, it works fine.

[nicjasno]

Just now, Gray Gear said:

 

The wheels are straight my man. The lenght I lost by offsetting the links is regained by having the links horizontaly straight, while the wishbones are are going downwards. I know this might not be ideal, but it believe it is pretty good as long as the suspension is not giving in.

So now you have bump steer then.... Even worse.