onecase

Fraud MOC sellers.

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This is a difficult subject. I've had designs I've done used by a client that didn't pay for them so I know how annoying or difficult it can be.

There are so many variables in this that it's almost hard to keep track. Nobody but Disney own the rights to use those likenesses or even the names of the vessels etc that are MOC'd... so technically you can't use them to sell something. Lego also don't have patents on most of their bricks or parts anymore so they can be copied and not considered a knock-off as it's about as much fair use as people saying they can copy and sell an AT-AT MOC is fair use.

I've always felt that MOCing was it's own reward. You've created something and you're proud of it. Now how do you show it? Just pictures? Show it at an exhibition? Do you even make instructions? I know some people don't.

If people then go to the trouble of making instructions and having them ready to sell then it's moving on from just being a MOC created for the builder's own pleasure to something else entirely... it's a commercial venture. And if you don't own the rights to any of the names or likenesses then why would you feel it's OK for you to sell it? Because of scale? Selling a few of them would be OK but if someone sold more then that would become an issue? It's all down to how tightly the rights holder wants to keep control. Selling one may be too much to them.

With regards to fair use I can see why having images on something like Deviantart is one thing but if you then started selling those then the rights holder may have an issue.

It also doesn't matter what platform things are sold on. Even on eBay it can take time for something to be removed even if it's reported multiple times.. and it's not always a guarantee. Amazon is also just used as a vehicle for people to have their own marketplace. Same as Etsy. So this isn't a Chinese issue. China's issues with IP and copyright law are well known even going as far as having Chinese brands essentially copying well known Western vehicles like the BMW X5 but with a different badge on it, so a company selling instructions and bricks to a small Lego type set isn't going to register.

I'd take it as a compliment.

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It is not legitimate LEGO, although they say "5098 PCS LEGO Quality Bricks" in the description, they also put this in the details:

  • Size: L : 50 cm W : 40 cm H :60 cm,easy-to-follow, instruction diagrams with brick by brick guide–sent electronically via email.
  • Introduction: This a High quality set at an affordable price. All our MOC brick sets are made from high quality 100% ABS plastic.
  • Please note: This is stand not a Lego branded item, but is 100% compatible with LEGO and can be easily modified or expanded to make your imaginations a reality.

So not LEGO, and you are going to be building from a PDF not printed instructions.

 

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I would always support a MOC creator.

For the parts ... well I can understand why someone would purchase bricks from other sources than Lego (especially if he can avoid Bricklink) as some bricks are just too rare and overpriced. I personally prefer Lego bricks still but have seen other bricks (Cobi for example) that are of the same quality at least.

 

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I'd say the Chinese sourcing and selling parts for a MOC can be beneficial for the designer in a way. I know there are a few sellers that don't simply send you the instructions, but they ask you to buy them from the author. Then you don't have to source the parts and the parts are more affordable, so the author gets more support. Though most stores simply send you the instructions, so the author doesn't see any reward for his hard work of creating the instructions.
Then there are brands like Lepin (now King and Queen) that also copy Ideas projects. I believe the designer receives 1% from total sales of that Ideas set from Lego, while they see nothing from clones.

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6 hours ago, Gargon said:

I'd say the Chinese sourcing and selling parts for a MOC can be beneficial for the designer in a way. I know there are a few sellers that don't simply send you the instructions, but they ask you to buy them from the author. Then you don't have to source the parts and the parts are more affordable, so the author gets more support. Though most stores simply send you the instructions, so the author doesn't see any reward for his hard work of creating the instructions.
Then there are brands like Lepin (now King and Queen) that also copy Ideas projects. I believe the designer receives 1% from total sales of that Ideas set from Lego, while they see nothing from clones.

Unfortunately, there are only a couple who do that (probably 1-3 sellers). Overall there is no benefit for the designer no matter how you look at it unless the designer gets help from TLC. 

 

6 hours ago, m4st3rt3ch said:

ledako.de is another disgusting example.

I agree. Is anyone here able to report this scums account? I've seen that officers (not sure on the specifics) have the authorization on eBay to do such. But if not we can always spam them :D 

Edited by Evergreen

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4 hours ago, Evergreen said:

I agree. Is anyone here able to report this scums account? I've seen that officers (not sure on the specifics) have the authorization on eBay to do such. But if not we can always spam them :D 

I reported him multiple times  (Ebay and amazon)

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This site seems to be similar to the others mentioned. They are selling the Saturn V tower. If memory serves, the tower was submitted to Lego Ideas but was rejected and the designer made the instructions available for free (please correct me if I'm wrong). I looked into building the tower but gave up on the idea as some of the pieces needed are very rare.

Where would people stand on the ethics of selling this set? I don't think it's going to cost Lego or the set designer any money so it seems to be as ethical as this sort of thing could be...

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Seesh, ok, this ledako guy seems awfully well established with his scams :( With their own website AND Bricklink store?! Selling the MOC plans from most top of the line designers like nobody's business... I wonder if one could report them to bricklink? Do you think anyone would care over there?

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Is it just me or all these fraud sellers are also selling lighting kits? Maybe this is literally one person?

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1 hour ago, Jerac said:

Is it just me or all these fraud sellers are also selling lighting kits? Maybe this is literally one person?

Lepin (or alike) does lighting kits for quite a lot of sets, they're all reselling the same ones I guess. Not something you can blame them for, for once. Especially when Lego isn't any interested in lighting.

I was interested in buying a kit for the Mustang, but I have no idea about the quality, especially when all reviews on Ali are so blatantly fake. Leds are leds and that's what the chinese do best, but I guess the cables are likely to be cut too short.

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Won’t say I have not been tempted to build the monarch for 500 bucks, but the unknown quality of the bricks and the feeling that it would just not be right overwhelms. I’ve seen quite a few Lego vs fake vids and The flaws would really irk me on something I wanted to display. It would feel like wearing a cheap fake Rolex. Makes building MOCs awfully expensive, but I guess that’s why I appreciate my Starbricks U-Wing so much.

But I do buy the ‘fake’ custom army’s, the LOTR hordes, clone lots from different units, classic storm troopers, and some of the lessor known superheroes for my son. For some reason that doesn’t bother me at all. Particularly since Lego doesn’t sell “25 stormtroopers” or “50 ocrs”. So far the quality has been pretty decent to excellent (with just 1 or 2 duds) and I have not been ripped off (knock on wood). 

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17 minutes ago, TwoSolitudes said:

Won’t say I have not been tempted to build the monarch for 500 bucks, but the unknown quality of the bricks and the feeling that it would just not be right overwhelms. I’ve seen quite a few Lego vs fake vids and The flaws would really irk me on something I wanted to display. It would feel like wearing a cheap fake Rolex. Makes building MOCs awfully expensive, but I guess that’s why I appreciate my Starbricks U-Wing so much.

But I do buy the ‘fake’ custom army’s, the LOTR hordes, clone lots from different units, classic storm troopers, and some of the lessor known superheroes for my son. For some reason that doesn’t bother me at all. Particularly since Lego doesn’t sell “25 stormtroopers” or “50 ocrs”. So far the quality has been pretty decent to excellent (with just 1 or 2 duds) and I have not been ripped off (knock on wood). 

Frankly, clones of the xingbao family are pretty good. I even find studs looking better without the logo (they have nasty mold marks too, however).
They're just not very good for technic parts and.. yeah minifigs, and stickers (even though I've found their printed parts *better* than Lego's), and transparent parts (but Lego has just changed to another material that feels as weird as the clones).

I've also recently ordered clones of parts that Lego has made but cost the price of a house on Bricklink. Like, 2x2 turntable plates in LBG. I have no doubt they will be good, I just hope the color will match (or they're useless to me). Lots of brands and many are apparently bad.

 

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It is beyond me why anyone would support the cheap Chinese knock offs.  They are stealing from the creators design and it is flat out wrong.  The MOC creators deserve the credit and a return on their time.  

$20, $50 or even $100 for a set of plans hardly pays for the creators time.   The higher the price they get, the more likely they are to build more projects as it pays for their long hours of design time and the more cool projects you get to build.

If Disney shuts down MOC creations (which they could) they would be stupid as it is a creative outlet that encourages more people to buy all the rest of their products and to be honest such a small niche it isn’t worth their time.  I am sure their attorneys are more worried about the Chinese junk (copyright infringement toys) that has to cost them $100s of millions a year.  

It is not only economic fraud, but it is costing lives when this crap gets used in the construction of buildings and vehicles.  Fake bolts sheer and parts bust because they are not built to withstand tolerances falsely advertised.

I will get off my soap box, but nothing pisses me off more than seeing creators/designers getting screwed because the Chinese government ( China is were the vast majority of this stuff is coming from) won’t enforce copyright laws.  

I for one will do anything I can to support the creators and use real LEGO product whenever possible.

Andrew

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10 hours ago, NMbricks said:

I for one will do anything I can to support the creators and use real LEGO product whenever possible.

How is it supporting the creators to use real LEGO, though?

I've "supported" the Arvo Bros by buying their Xingbao sets, of the very few rare supposedly licensed ones. Lego would never have done that (because of the themes). The ones owning the licenses were not supported, though.

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It's not only Lego bricks or MOCs, Chinese frauds can't resist stealing and counterfeiting everything.

I recently saw a TV show explaining how some fake Chinese tourists go to most famous museums around the world to make pictures of renowned paintings so that some talented painters living in the chinese countryside could make beautiful copies within a few days.

They even make pictures of places such a typical places in Wien, Paris or London to replicate those places in China.

 

Rebrickable and such websites are here for passionates like wanting to share and rebuild our favorite creations. "fake" Lego fan will buy fake lego bricks, but hopefully they are a minority compared to the rest of us.

In my opinion, if someone is a real fan, one must better own a real thing that a copy. 

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I'm glad that this thread got jump started again. It really is a shame that some people rip off designers and their hard work.

Specifically speaking, I wish something could be done about Ledako.de

The user has stolen MOCs from several different designers and it has been happening for a few years at this point.

Even funnier is the fact that some of the MOCs, such as Anio's, are sold for a higher price than the original :laugh_hard:

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Where I come from, people who make a profit off someone elses work and effort without compensating or even acknowledging the original creator are called something describing a particular rear end of the human body with a hole in it through which waste is disposed of.

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