Side rod/ valve gear advice.

[Modeltrainman]

I did build this virtually first, yes.The reason I'm trying so hard at fitting all this in, even though it would probably come unpowered as a set is twofold: as an IDEA, I figure showing off it running, using the latest platform might be a great idea, like "A Disney classic character, now animated, using the latest LEGO platform, magic!" And, secondly, and most importantly, if nothing happens, I want to stick him in service around my Disney Castle, with my other trains. So, yeah. That's my planning, reasoning, and thought process in a nutshell. Looked at motors last night, the only PU motors LEGO sells are the train one, BOOST Motion Hub, Medium Linear Motor, and Medium Simple Linear Motor and I didn't know the difference. But yeah. Not staking anything on IDEAS, just figured since the character I'm modelling means so much to me, may as well share it with the world. And yes, I derailed my own thread a while ago.

2x https://brickset.com/parts/4652261/brick-1x3x2-w-ins-and-outs-bow to mount the cylinders, 2x https://brickset.com/parts/6079020/round-brick-2x2x2 for the cylinders, and two https://brickset.com/sets/containing-part-4211483 to attach those cylinders to the mounts. Moving the train causes them to pop off with 1x6 thin linkages as the rods coming from the cylinders. Otherwise, I'm following that WV Holiday Train side rod guide to a T...I think that's why I get derailments, but how to mount them is where I'm failing in my research. And also quartering, apparently.

Edited July 31, 2019 by Modeltrainman

[Roadmonkeytj]

The holiday train was mounted with friction pins to keep it from turning.  Instead of the half pin I would recommend the top stud of a headlight brick into the piston brick.  Then attach the curved brick to the inset of the front stud of a headlight brick to keep it from turning.

[Modeltrainman]

 

4 hours ago, Roadmonkeytj said:

The holiday train was mounted with friction pins to keep it from turning.  Instead of the half pin I would recommend the top stud of a headlight brick into the piston brick.  Then attach the curved brick to the inset of the front stud of a headlight brick to keep it from turning.

Thank you! looking into this once the 22961s come in the mail! Also, I'm going to ponder the motor in the tender/motorless frame so everything I can do is accounted for. Will keep updating! Thanks! I really hope a train can get through Ideas, someday. Kind of tired of so much space stuff, but that's another thread..

Edited August 1, 2019 by Modeltrainman

[zephyr1934]

Have you built up a prototype of your mechanicals that gets all the moving parts in the right place? Don't worry about having the final correct parts, e.g., you could use a technic part to get the hole for the cylinder right where you think it will be when you use the 2x2 round parts. That will allow you to quickly revise and refine without waiting for parts to arrive, e.g., this before and after example using techinc beams as a place holder for valve gear bars. But you can also do that for the frame and connection points.

 

 

[Modeltrainman]

I've been trying, but I haven't arrived at one that actually allows the functions. Going to keep working on it. I have my prototype in my OneDrive folder I shared. I need to get an updated picture, though.

[Modeltrainman]

I did some measuring stuff today, learned that the LEGO PU train motor is 10 studs end to end, while the smallest space to cram the drivers into is 8 studs,(ironically, the train motor is 8 studs long wheel to wheel, so in relation to that, my cylinders/pistons(?) need to be 14 studs out, and turns out, to be offset by a 1x2 with 1 stud, topped by a 1x3 plate to attach them, so, in theory, the binding issue should be solved. I think. Haven't ran the frame yet.

[Modeltrainman]

I got the side rods to work! Only thing making me nervous now is that you have to set the motor to 40% before Casey Jr. gets moving. But then, I was showing my grandparents what I was trying to accomplish yesterday, and testing before that, so the batteries aren't fresh. (and the battery box is heavy. Am I over stressing the motor?

Edited August 2, 2019 by Modeltrainman

[ALCO]

Just want to add a note here to the side-rod design in the MOD for the WV holiday train: the parts I had on hand were the friction pins but if the half-lever was positioned correctly between the friction ridges, it would function properly, and the friction ridges would actually keep the lever in the correct position so long as a "Hand of God" did not pick the locomotive up and squeeze the levers onto the friction ridges. Anyway the frictionless parts @zephyr1934 recommends would work great as long as the bush on the end of the axle is not too tight. 

Concerning the motor: I have a 4-4-0 American where the standard train motor is powering the drive wheels. A 7 long half lever is just the right size for the side rods but the wheels might make your engine a little too long for your fancy. One of the fun parts of this process is experimenting. This will also make your engine quite quick and a several laden cars will slow it down quite nicely. I also like the locomotive doing the work and the batteries in the tender. You can check my Flickr for photos and I think even a video of the 4-4-0 running with rods and all. PF motor is driving the large driver wheels. The rods technique is the same as the WV holiday train.

[Modeltrainman]

Thanks, @ALCO I'll keep seeing if I can refine still! I talked to LEGO, they suggested I put another Hub and motor onboard to assist. I guess there's no L or XL motors in the PU system, currently.

Edited August 2, 2019 by Modeltrainman

[M_slug357]

11 hours ago, Modeltrainman said:

...guess there's no L or XL motors in the PU system, currently.

Those exist, but are not individually for sale yet. They’ll probably be absurdly priced when they do become available though.

[Roadmonkeytj]

15 hours ago, Modeltrainman said:

Thanks, @ALCO I'll keep seeing if I can refine still! I talked to LEGO, they suggested I put another Hub and motor onboard to assist. I guess there's no L or XL motors in the PU system, currently.

To give you an idea I run my emerald night on a pf L motor and it takes 3 speed clicks before she crawls under her own weight. 5 with wagons and I max her out to give me a nice slower paced steamer.  You getting any wheel spin or does it seem like its "chuffing" hard when running?

 

3 hours ago, M_slug357 said:

Those exist, but are not individually for sale yet. They’ll probably be absurdly priced when they do become available though.

I can order them here in the states?

45303 (equivalent to pf M motor)

88008 (equivalent to pf L motor)

88011 (equivalent to pf train motor)

[Modeltrainman]

12 hours ago, Roadmonkeytj said:

To give you an idea I run my emerald night on a pf L motor and it takes 3 speed clicks before she crawls under her own weight. 5 with wagons and I max her out to give me a nice slower paced steamer.  You getting any wheel spin or does it seem like its "chuffing" hard when running?

 

I can order them here in the states?

45303 (equivalent to pf M motor)

88008 (equivalent to pf L motor)

88011 (equivalent to pf train motor)

No wheelspin or anything, I just have to throttle up to 40% and give a little nudge before things start. The only thing is I hear the side rods creak when he  hits a corner. So, I figure safer than sorry. LEGO told me that  blinking orange is low battery, blinking white is pairing, purple is paired, (though one software shows green(the one from cosmik42) another uses solid white(power up your bricks https://www.microsoft.com/store/productId/9N0NFVLZHN02))  red means to contact LEGO but the PU Hub doesn't report the motor's status, So, yeah. Better safe than sorry. I have no prior experience for this, because my heaviest train, is, like you mentioned the Emerald Night, on what I remember is the XL. (Whatever they asked for in the directions is what I bought), and my other trains only ever needed one train motor, whether the BNSF and Super Chief,(9V,) Emerald Night, (PF,) Western Train Chase(PF Train Motor) On the Maersk, never gotten around to building it, so I don't know what that would need now. On topic though, my black 1x7s came, so now I only need to deal with the motor, final check, then video, submission.

Edited August 3, 2019 by Modeltrainman

[Roadmonkeytj]

Batteries definately affect operation.  If you run it without the siderods does it behave the same? Also if you take it off the track and run it do you notice any binding?

I know on my hubs I can change the color of my hubs (once paired) by clicking the pair button once and it will cycle through the colors per click.  I run my switcher in orange color usually because the light is less detracting. But otherwise the color flashing you described is correct.

[Modeltrainman]

Very good questions! I'm not sure. I think I'll have to try again with side rods off, fresher batteries, and siderods on with fresher batteries. Hadn't even considered siderods being an issue since this is only my 3rd steam loco.(7597 and 10194 being my only other two I've taken seriously..)

[Roadmonkeytj]

If the rods are out of time (quartering) or too short, too long, too much friction, they could be an issue.  But to sule them out run it without them if the issue is resolved then some attention to the rod function needs to happen.  If not then you have another issue.  Also make sure you have just the slightest gap between your wheels and the body ... Too tight there could cause issues.  Also if running on old 9v track run your train Clockwise as opposed to Anti-clockwise.  The 9v has thicker flanges where the tracks join and cw running helps the wheels catch less.

[Modeltrainman]

How exactly do I quarter them correctly? The internet is light on detail for LEGO steam locos.. Also, with rods off there's no issue. Let me see if I can get a really good picture of what I have, and see if maybe I'm missing something. With only the 1x7's on I can start at about 20%, if that makes a difference.

 

[zephyr1934]

Quartering means that the wheels on one side are 1/4 out of phase with the wheels on the other side of the locomotive. So if one side the pin holes for the wheels were at 12 o'clock (straight up), the pin holes for the wheels on the other side should be at either 3 o'clock or 9 o'clock (straight forward or straight backward). If you don't quarter the wheels then the side rods can bind, with one wheel going forward, the other turning backward and then the pair binds up and will not move (or in lesser cases, just cause a lot o drag). When the axles are quartered they cannot bind like this, all of the wheels have to move in unison. Lego side stepped this problem on the HP train by having the rods only go to one wheel.

[M_slug357]

On 8/2/2019 at 11:57 PM, Roadmonkeytj said:

...I can order them here in the states?

45303 (equivalent to pf M motor)

88008 (equivalent to pf L motor)

88011 (equivalent to pf train motor)

Wrong motors, and I don’t think 88008 is an equivalent choice per se. 45303 acts natively more like a servo motor.

I’m talking about the new L & xL motors that come in sets 42099 and 42100.

[Modeltrainman]

So, I figured out the binding issue, now I just need to try with absolutely fresh batteries. Train started unloaded at 10%, one car at 10%, and the rest at about 20-30% Getting there, at least.