[WIP] Two mast Schooner?

[Masked Mini]

Ahoy!

This is my first attempt at building a non LEGO created ship.
I'm loosely following Capt. Greenhairs tutorial frigate build from 2009.
Unlike the frigate build I am starting with the narrow hull and two center sections.
I ultimately plan on having two of these ships for my Blue coats.
This is a trial run before I start on the four frigates I have keel-laid.

Please let me know if I'm reinventing the wheel!
I literally have never freebuilt a tumblehome or sterncastle before so I'm sure there's stuff I could be doing for a cleaner aesthetic.

*snipped  a bunch of huge pictures*


I'm still figuring out the bow and the sterncastle will need color swapping, i'm thinking largely white.
Aaand I really need to get a better camera and lightning. Pardon the crappy pictures this once.

Edited August 9, 2019 by Masked Mini

[Captain Braunsfeld]

Looks fine to me so far. Thanks for sharing the WIP pictures.

Any chance you find smaller windows for the captain's cabin?

 

[Masked Mini]

Sure. I'm not hugely stocked on Windows. So I might have to ldd the cabin to play with Windows, trim and color, then order what I need.

Were you thinking of a particular style? I have some of the old 2*2 and 2*6 windows with glass and a ton of the 2*3 round top. I could also build windows from the old fences with diamond pattern, tall or short.

You got me percolating ideas, thank you.

Edited June 26, 2019 by Masked Mini

[kurigan]

Got just a few thought for you, do with them as you will. 

 

Going from white, up to blue, up to black and back to blue, isn’t quite working. Lots of builders run into this which is why it’s popular to swap the insert for a more convenient color. Since you expressed in interest in not reinventing the wheel, links!: 

 

 If you could get black inserts to replace the blue it would look more coordinated. 

 

The inconsistent spacing of the gun ports is off-putting. While, historically speaking, gun placement wasn’t always consistent, especially on small ships, you seem to be building a dedicated gundeck here, and in that case it should be. You also have a lot of gun ports for such a small ship. I would suggest, in this case, less is more. Try spacing them out 3 or 4 studs (more even if you want to poke your head into realism) and tell me it doesn’t look better; more ship-like. 

 

I’m a little concerned that your impression of what a schooner is, might be based on Skull’s Eye Schooner, but that’s just a name. She’s actually a pinnace (not the row boat kind), maybe a galleon if someone wants to argue scale. If she going to be a schooner, schooner isn’t a great rig for large men-of-war, large enough to have a dedicated gundeck. In that case I'd say leave off the top deck and make the cabin smaller or strike it entirely. If she’s going to be a pinnace/galleon, like SES there, I think you're going to try and cram a lot on a small hull and it will wind up looking cluttered even cartoonish. Fine by me if that’s what you’re going for but IMHO, less is more. 

 

Along that same line of thinking: you went through the effort of emulating CGH to generate a tumble home and sheer, yet while the colors below the gun ports stage out a curve, the cap rail is flat. It’s kind of in reverse. If not consistent down through the hull, it’s more likely that the sheer curve would be more apparent at the cap rail then at the water line, but really it would be the same top to bottom. 

 

Dave 

[iammac]

I am very interested in where this thread is going. I've built several ships but haven't gotten up the courage to post them among the titans on this forum... and I'll be taking in all the advice here! 

Maybe I've got the wrong impression entirely, but isn't the poop deck smaller in area than the cabin? This would require tapering in instead of out at the stern. 

I'm rooting for you @Masked Mini and I look forward to seeing this project take off!

 

MAC

[TomSkippy]

Using Capt Green Hair’s tutorial is a great place to start. Very impressive way to start your non-Lego builds! 

A couple suggestions:

1) Consider adding a third hull piece. Your ship’s proportions look fine, my preference is long thin ships. 

2) The stern needs something. Lego sets generally have taller sterns than normal. Most of us struggle making a stern that is as tall and attractive as theirs. My attempts end up looking boxy.

Either shorten it or try to make a cabin thats a 90% copy of the newer Lego pirate ships (Black Pearl or one of the Bountys). Swap a color or two, add a piece of flair (some round 1x1x1 bricks or cones).

Some shortening tips:

Use smaller windows.

Find space in the stern hull piece (dig down, not up!)

Minifigures don’t have to stand in the cabin (bed, piano, table, desk aren’t for standing). 

Cabin access is fake news... the door doesn’t have to open. 

Swap out the hats. Feel free to give them a hat rack and a hair piece when relaxing.

Here’s a build of mine that illustrates these ideas. 

 

You’re already doing the most important things for your build: asking for help, copying others, and (hopefully) having a good time.

Another good thread to copy from:

 

Looking forward to seeing more of your builds!

Edited June 28, 2019 by TomSkippy

[Masked Mini]

On ‎6‎/‎26‎/‎2019 at 3:28 PM, kurigan said:

Got just a few thought for you, do with them as you will. 

 

Going from white, up to blue, up to black and back to blue, isn’t quite working. Lots of builders run into this which is why it’s popular to swap the insert for a more convenient color. Since you expressed in interest in not reinventing the wheel, links!: 

 

Dave 

Thank You for the detailed reply Dave!

I did indeed have a hull for the Time traveler ship waiting to be turned into another clipper.
I split that and the spare Armada hull and have to say I like it so much I'll be swapping the first Armada hull to white/black as well.
Pictures will be forth coming tonight. I've kept busy sorting ~20 gal of bulk bricks (and buying more bulk because who turns down a glass of water when drowning?)

You made a good point regarding gun spacing, I spent more time trying to figure out the stud math and how to cram them in than whether or not I should.
Never did notice how the spacing changes from 2 to 3 studs between wall sections until you said something.
Now the spacing between the very center is a little funky due to the ladder between the ports. I don't see that aesthetic changing unless I go to min 4 studs between ports.
Currently there are 9 guns per side, I will try 6 next and see how that works out.

I was calling her a cutter in my mind but thought size and mast wise she'd be a schooner like SES. So it was worse than you thought but you got me dead to rights.
What I would like to achieve for these two hulls are ships that are sleek, fast, (smaller) guns galore (compared to lego standard). Smuggler interceptors.
I'm not up on real life ship classes, especially as they apparently blend/evolve into one another over time.
That said, I am contemplating your advice on removing the top deck, exposing the gun deck, possibly leaving the current top deck in the stern and striking the cabin.
I'm trying to do all the things, all at the same time because I'm excited to start building. It's okay to save stuff like the cabin builds for when I work on the four wide hull ships I have laid up.

Fixing the cap rail is easy enough. I had to go through some extra steps to level it (trying to connect the individual walls), so less work makes for a better looking result.
Since I'm already publicly showing my ignorance... what does "CGH" stand for?
 

On ‎6‎/‎28‎/‎2019 at 1:40 PM, TomSkippy said:

Using Capt Green Hair’s tutorial is a great place to start. Very impressive way to start your non-Lego builds! 

A couple suggestions:

1) Consider adding a third hull piece. Your ship’s proportions look fine, my preference is long thin ships. 

2) The stern needs something. Lego sets generally have taller sterns than normal. Most of us struggle making a stern that is as tall and attractive as theirs. My attempts end up looking boxy.

Either shorten it or try to make a cabin thats a 90% copy of the newer Lego pirate ships (Black Pearl or one of the Bountys). Swap a color or two, add a piece of flair (some round 1x1x1 bricks or cones).

Some shortening tips:

Use smaller windows.

Find space in the stern hull piece (dig down, not up!)

Looking forward to seeing more of your builds!

1) My man! You are going to love what I got planned... These stretched Armada hulls are my training wheels. Practice, practice, practice.
I have a stretched Black Pearl hull, a old brown, a red/brown and a Dolphin cruiser all with 5 centers ready to roll. Things will get big before too long.
ISO hinges... all the hinges! I may need to try to make the click hinges work to see these projects through. I've already been hoarding tank tread for making 3x3 masts.

2) The stern needs a lot. I was mainly trying to figure out scale/ overall shape. Someone else pointed out it's sloping the wrong way. You make a good point though, I'll knock off a few of the Lego ones to get more of a feel for how to freehand them. Also I like your advice to dig down, probably a bit easier on the wider hulls since I do lose quite a bit of interior space creating the tumblehome.
I still need to read through all your links, thank you for those!

3) Second person to recommend smaller windows... luckily I found a fair amount of windows while sorting my bulk. I'll need to document the varieties I have to work with.

Thank you for taking the time to write out your help and guidance!

[Masked Mini]

On ‎6‎/‎27‎/‎2019 at 11:24 AM, iammac said:

I am very interested in where this thread is going. I've built several ships but haven't gotten up the courage to post them among the titans on this forum... and I'll be taking in all the advice here! 

Maybe I've got the wrong impression entirely, but isn't the poop deck smaller in area than the cabin? This would require tapering in instead of out at the stern. 

I'm rooting for you @Masked Mini and I look forward to seeing this project take off!

 

MAC

/brofist

Post away mate!
I figure the worst that'll happen is that I get my ego bruised a bit.
The best that'll happen is that 5 or 10 years down the road someone else will mention our names in the same breath as Sebeus or Greenhair or one of the other Titans as you put it.
Nothing to lose, everything to gain! And if that isn't what a pirate (forum) is all about then I don't want to be (in) one.

You make a great point about the taper! I'll try to work it in, not out on the next iteration.

[Masked Mini]

Much better with black top parts.



I'm thinking 5 gun ports, 4 studs in between for this attempt.



Red bricks standing in for the midships boarding ladder.



Rough up of a white gundeck stripe with gun ports and boarding ladder.
I must say I think I want to try a Blue stripe again. The white is just too much what with the hull.



Future projects. Although I misremembered, only the Pearl and the brown hull are quint centered, the others are only at 4 at the moment.

[iammac]

On 6/30/2019 at 12:18 PM, Masked Mini said:

/brofist

Post away mate!
I figure the worst that'll happen is that I get my ego bruised a bit.
The best that'll happen is that 5 or 10 years down the road someone else will mention our names in the same breath as Sebeus or Greenhair or one of the other Titans as you put it.
Nothing to lose, everything to gain! And if that isn't what a pirate (forum) is all about then I don't want to be (in) one.

You make a great point about the taper! I'll try to work it in, not out on the next iteration.

You make some great points, and I'll be taking these to heart. I'm separated from my bricks this summer, but once I get back I'll put aside my ego and make a post.

As for the other WIPs, that's a significant flotilla... I'm a bit stunned at the part commitment they represent!  I wish you the best of luck sir!

 

MAC

[kurigan]

OK first off, CGH stands for Captain Green Hair. 

Cutter can mean a few things. like many nautical terms it depends on which aspect of the vessel's design or function you're referring to which it means. any small cruiser, engaged in coastal patrol type duties, can be called a cutter, regardless of its size or rig. The term is still used in this way by the USCG. in terms of rigging; a cutter is a single masted vessel with more than one head sail; that's the triangular ones that go in front of the mast, out over the head, or bow, of the ship, hence the term head sail. Since schooners, actual schooners, evolved from cutters, the term is sometimes applied to them as well. so, it could be a cutter of a kind if you want it to be.

I'm liking the black inserts. I don't see why you wouldn't stick with a blue stripe and black gun ports now. The white hull sections now give an impression of a white washed hull; that's what they did before copper plating to discourage marine life from latching on and ruining the hull. 

I hate being this guy, but it's the easiest way to make my point, sorry. What I was doing HERE on Ramcat, before she was broke up, is what I'm trying to convey about open gun decks and cabins. you note that the deck shares out space for the working of the sails as well as the guns. The cabin is also on that same deck, not elevated, and there is a tiny quarter deck (not a poop in this case as it's actually where from the ship is conned) above that, which makes a roof for the cabin. the cabin, realistically, is not full height and a mini-fig cannot stand up straight. Now I personally think her guns look comically close together and they are 4 studs apart. Her replacement has 6 studs in between and, to my lights, looks a lot better. While Ramcat is an 18th-19th century ship, the basic design of ships really doesn't change over the centuries, but to be refined and simplified. 

 

Alright, lots to think about there, enjoy!

[Cousarmy0001]

I'd like to echo Kurigan on the number of guns.  The smaller number certainly looks nicer- and you'd need at least two studs between each port to fit cannons anyway.  In all of my ships, I have 3-4 studs between each port, unless they're not a dedicated man of war.  I would suggest trying to make the hull lower, if possible.  This may necessitate cutting her to 8 guns instead of 10, but I think it would make the ship look more balanced, unless you're going to add hull sections.  I love the CGH method, but I find it's extremely difficult to work into vessels that aren't very long.  I've got three ships that I'm proud of, but only one of them has tumblehome at all (with the CGH method), and it's 5 sections long.  The other two ships have one and two center sections respectively.  In both I played with a few tumblehome methods during the design phase, and gave up for both because it's too difficult to work in for such a small ship.

In CGH's tutorial, he says to put a layer of 2x4s on top of the center sections before building out for the effect, but if you're building a shorter ship, it may look disproportionately tall.  If you're going to stick to the CGH method here, I would advise modifying it by eliminating the 2x4s so that your gun deck (and by extension your hull) sits lower.  Otherwise she looks like she'll roll over.  With two center pieces, you should still be able to comfortably fit 8 guns into her, maybe still 10 if you cut it to three studs, and get a little creative.

It is possible to have a captain's cabin while making your hull lower.  You'll just need to have the lower part of it formed by the stern piece.  I have three ships I've done this with that use the old style hull, and all of them have pretty decent cabins.  With a ship this short, I would recommend having the side windows actually sitting on the hull section, or with a plate or two beneath them at the most.

In all honesty, though, if you're going to build a smaller ship using prefab hulls, the new style are much better for it.

[Cousarmy0001]

Looking at my large ship in the light of day, I realized I skipped the initial layer of 2x4s with her as well.  It's linked in my signature, though that's the 14 gun version.  I've since added a hull section with four guns, and tiled the whole thing.  If you like, I can post some pictures to show what I'm talking about.

[Masked Mini]

5 hours ago, Cousarmy0001 said:

Looking at my large ship in the light of day, I realized I skipped the initial layer of 2x4s with her as well.  It's linked in my signature, though that's the 14 gun version.  I've since added a hull section with four guns, and tiled the whole thing.  If you like, I can post some pictures to show what I'm talking about.

I had considered laying a plate on the centers instead of a brick. Not sure how that'll work as the gun deck wouldn't be able to continue past the centers I don't think.

Are you building on the wide or narrow hulls? I don't see 4 guns fitting on a narrow center.

Please do link your thread or album. I'm sure I'm not the only one who hasn't seen it before.

[Masked Mini]

On 7/4/2019 at 12:43 AM, kurigan said:

OK first off, CGH stands for Captain Green Hair.

Painfully obvious in hindsight.

 

On 7/4/2019 at 12:43 AM, kurigan said:

single masted vessel with more than one head sail; that's the triangular ones that go in front of the mast, out over the head, or bow, of the ship,

I might try this. It sounds interesting.

Ramcat's deck layout is what I pictured after your last input, well described.

[Masked Mini]

Thought I had decided on 3 stud gaps between gun ports. Didn't look quite right though.



4 stud gaps look a bit better, no?
Gun stripe is too thick above the ports.



Dropped it a plate, looks like I need to drop it another plate.
Possibly strip out another plate of black below the stripe as well.



Stern wall ended up 2 studs shorter than the first iteration.



Same with the bow wall.



I screwed up somewhere. Second iteration isn't shaped as nice.
I'll attempt to seperate the first and second to last 5 stud wall sections and adjust them in half a stud.
Then move the last 5 stud section in a half stud as well

No masts roughed in this time. Concentrating on getting the sidewalls and gun deck right.
MK 2 gundeck openings are 1 plate higher than MK 1.
MK1 deck is 5 plates below the opening, MK2 deck is 3 plates below the opening. So MK2 gundeck should be 1 brick higher.

[Cousarmy0001]

My large ship (which uses the CGH method minus the bottom layer of 2x4s) is on the larger hulls, but they're still 8 studs long, just as the smaller hulls are.

Unfortunately, I'm on the other side of the country from my ships right now, so I can't really provide fresh pictures, but here's a picture of the LDD file for one of my smaller ships.  The gun ports are dummies on this ship, but it demonstrates what I mean by having the ports lower in the hull, below the top of the hull pieces.  On reviewing my larger ship, they're not below the top of the hull pieces (they're flush with it), but again, that ship has five center pieces.

I really think if you continue with your current build, the final product is going to be too tall.  I'd recommend either cutting the guns until they'll fit on just the center sections, or adding a center section and lowering what you have into the gap.  It's your ship, of course, so do with her as you like.

[Roadmonkeytj]

On 7/5/2019 at 10:21 PM, Masked Mini said:

I screwed up somewhere.

Think of a ship like a Lady.  She should have curves!  The ship in the background is quite nice as far as curve the center of the ship is the lowest and widest part (aside from stern galleries)

I would recomend only using one plate on top of the prefab stern and work in to the center (actually not exact center but just forward of it)

This is one I never got around to finishing much past the photo here but it gives an idea what Im talking about.  I actually feel like I have almost too much curve in the center.  But you notice the stearn galleries are right down near the prefabs

 

[Masked Mini]

I've not washed overboard Mates. Seas been a bit rough and as a consequence I've been rather busy.
That said, I've had lots of time to think on all the good advice and to catch up on the almost 40 pages of the shipwrights thread in BotBs.
Both hulls have been broken down to bare bones again. I will rebuild with 3 centers each and with the Legostone method.
Both LS' (unnamed?) ship and Wellesley's HMS Ymir capture what I was dreaming of for these hulls. Fast, narrow, sleek, interceptors.
That said I think I have a way to reduce some of the blockiness of the technique. You'll get to critique it before too long.
In the shipwright thread. When I made this thread I was unaware of that thread's existence, it could REALLY use a pin or sticky.