Fx Bricks (Michael Gale) announces Fx Track system

[michaelgale]

9 minutes ago, M_slug357 said:

@michaelgale thanks for taking the time to really break it down for us!

Regarding the dcc bit— does this mean that further on down the line you intend to release a motor & controller that are dcc ready/ equipped?

All of our motor bogie products will be DCC "ready".  This means they will offer separate access to the track power pickup and motor terminals so that you can use an external control, e.g. DCC decoder, PFx Brick, etc.  Integration of the DCC decoder in the motor bogie itself is in the roadmap--but this will come after the first "DC" motor bogie.

10 minutes ago, zephyr1934 said:

Hi Michael,

 this is a great passage you wrote, and hopefully you will keep it as part of an FAQ when the power station comes to market. Long ago I think I quickly killed a couple of 9v train motors with the RCX brick, which presumably has a much simpler PWM that is not appropriate for the 9v train motors (which in turn, presumably the 9v train motor development in the early 90's predates the wide use of PWM voltage control). While your note implies that you used the stock 9v motors throughout R+D with no ill effects to the motors, you might want to highlight that point and explicitly say it somewhere prominent.

 As a knob when it comes to motor electronics, I wonder if there would be any benefit to putting a capacitor in parallel to the motor, e.g., using the 9v motor output? Or does most of the benefit come from placing the capacitor serial with the motor? If there is benefit from a parallel connection, how difficult would it be to make a non-corded 9v plug that has a capacitor across the terminals to retrofit old 9v motors?

 

I don't dispute that folks had issues with RCX bricks and 9V train motors.  It is likely that a combination of "coast" mode PWM and no snubber/filter components lead to a premature demise of the motors.  However, I strongly suspect those motors can be resurrected with brush/commutator refurbishment!

As you say, 9V train motors did pre-date the widespread adoption of PWM speed control and therefore do not have a minimum snubber capacitor.  It is almost always a good idea to place a filter capacitor in parallel with brushed DC motor terminals.  As mentioned, this reduces sparking of the brushes with the added benefit of reduced EMI.  

Your suggestion of a 9V plug accessory to act as "snubber / filter" for legacy 9V motors is a great idea!  It will be an easy product variant since our new 9V connectors have internal PCBs and therefore installation of a capacitor/resistor snubber network would be simple!

Having said that, the Power Station itself has a snubber network as well as Zener catch diodes for over-voltage spikes.  This isn't as good as capacitors at the motor terminals themselves due to the inductance of the feeder cables + track between the motor and the Power station; however, it is better than nothing.  

We'll be sure to put together a FAQ / disclaimer guide, since we cannot possibly guarantee fuss free operation with every motor load configuration, condition, age, quality, etc.

[supertruper1988]

2 hours ago, michaelgale said:

Blanket statements of X causes Y without explanation or evidence simply do not help.  I took the time to write this long explanation as an educational benefit to the community to help understand these issues and to remove any anxieties about using PWM to control motor speed.

In my "blanket statement" was based on facts and although I didnt dig up old LUGNet posts, there is evidence out there that PWM does harm LEGO 9V train motors. I surely am not the only one that has only heard of PWM in the context of it harming LEGO motors. 

Your post is very informational but even you admit that the "snubber network" is not as good as a capacitor across the motor terminals. I know you tested on stock motors but how many cars? How much weight was used? We all know that there are a LOT of variations in how a motors perform given different situations. 

Why not use some kind of linear converter if the PWM is the best for control an additional linear converter would also be something to place between the output and rails either as a part of this or as a separate product? 

I am mostly frustrated that this is yet another cart before the horse (motors) and in the space of time that is between the release of this and the hope of a motor release, there is the expectation that we, as the users, are to risk our very old and very expensive motors? Unless of course you intend to release both the power stations and the motors at the same time but that is yet to be communicated. 

[michaelgale]

@supertruper1988 I apologize if I came off a little harsh in my response to your warnings about 9V motors being damaged.  I do acknowledge that old 9V train motors can be prematurely damaged by some PWM type waveforms and with the right combination of heavy load, i.e. increased current/voltage and corresponding power dissipation.  At the end of the day, we want the same thing:  long life out our 9V motor bogies and achieving the best performance for our trains.

With respect to horse and cart, we're simply doing the best we can to develop these products.  I'm not sure if there is a best schedule for product release--in reality, the motor bogie, track feeders and controller need to be simultaneously released to have any real value.  

PWM based motor control is the best way forward for our products since it will yield the highest performance, efficiency, and longer life for the motor since the motor will be dissipating less power over its operational life span.  I trust our Power Station product to safely operate legacy 9V LEGO train motors and subject my fleet of train motors to rigorous and regular testing.  Can I guarantee every 9V train motor will be safe? Probably not--it would be foolish to claim otherwise--but I think the probability of failure is so low given the known mechanisms of failure and the remedies included in the design of the Power Station.  

Lastly, we have to look forwards and not backwards.  Our priority is getting the best performance possible and that is the focus of our new motor bogie product.  We're designing the Power Station and the new motor for 12V operation using high frequency PWM--the best combination of efficiency, performance and long life.  Our new motor bogie uses metal bearings within a metal internal chassis for the best possible performance, durability and smooth operation.  It is nothing like the LEGO 9V train motor internally.  We've even had to "dial back" our design since initially we were going to use expensive Swiss made coreless motors, but decided that you folks would be better served with an affordable product using a quality iron core motor instead.  This is not an easy product to design; however, it is a modern design guided by sound engineering principles with the aim of elevating the LEGO train operating experience that is both long overdue and worth waiting for.

 

[XG BC]

how much will the new motor approximately cost compared to the og 9v motor?

[zephyr1934]

18 hours ago, michaelgale said:

With respect to horse and cart, we're simply doing the best we can to develop these products.  I'm not sure if there is a best schedule for product release--in reality, the motor bogie, track feeders and controller need to be simultaneously released to have any real value.  

This point is key, someone with legacy 9v train motors is also likely to have legacy 9v train controllers. I believe the FX track is 100% backwards compatible with the 9v equipment. So for the legacy users, they probably will not buy in to the new controller right away, and only will do so when either their old equipment wears out or the new equipment offers better functionality (and thus, will need the new motors anyway).

If the new train motors are backward compatible with 9v controllers then the legacy 9v motors will once more become replaceable. (I believe Michael had said that the form factor will be compatible with the shape of the 9v train motors)

@michaelgale will the new DC train motors be backward compatible with the legacy 9v train controllers?

[XG BC]

31 minutes ago, zephyr1934 said:

This point is key, someone with legacy 9v train motors is also likely to have legacy 9v train controllers. I believe the FX track is 100% backwards compatible with the 9v equipment. So for the legacy users, they probably will not buy in to the new controller right away, and only will do so when either their old equipment wears out or the new equipment offers better functionality (and thus, will need the new motors anyway).

If the new train motors are backward compatible with 9v controllers then the legacy 9v motors will once more become replaceable. (I believe Michael had said that the form factor will be compatible with the shape of the 9v train motors)

@michaelgale will the new DC train motors be backward compatible with the legacy 9v train controllers?

if the motor is just a regular brushed dc motor which i think it is yes ofcourse it will be backwards compatible. if it is dcc then not but michael has said that he wants to release non dcc variants first so yes it will be backwards compatible

[michaelgale]

@zephyr1934 Indeed, the new Fx Bricks train motor will be compatible with the legacy 9V speed regulator.  And yes, the form factor will also be identical to the legacy 9V train motor bogie. 

[michaelgale]

Might as well confirm the form factor with a teaser image! ...

p.s. the axles are not actually green on the final product!  :)

Edited November 2, 2021 by michaelgale
added a p.s.

[Feuer Zug]

SHUT UP and take my MONEY! New 9v motors and power supplies? I can finally dig out my old stuff and replace the dead motors (upgrade the newer stuff, and...and...)

Is there any option on the table to connect up to 12v track and replacement power pickups/motors for that? I have more 12v than 9v waiting to see daylight again.

[M_slug357]

@michaelgale This is exciting!

Just wondering, but have you any thoughts about starting a "9V motor rehabilitation" program to essentially 'breathe new life' into older and/or dead 9V motors?

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(Apologies if this has been asked before)

[michaelgale]

2 minutes ago, M_slug357 said:

@michaelgale This is exciting!

Just wondering, but have you any thoughts about starting a "9V motor rehabilitation" program to essentially 'breathe new life' into older and/or dead 9V motors?

.

.

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(Apologies if this has been asked before)

I guess, that's sort of coming soon...read the conclusion of my latest BrickNerd article...

https://bricknerd.com/home/this-old-track-maintaining-and-restoring-your-metal-9v-track-11-2-21

 

[Ropefish]

4 hours ago, michaelgale said:

Might as well confirm the form factor with a teaser image! ...

.

p.s. the axles are not actually green on the final product!  :)

Are there any plans to make it so a train can run both PF/PU and 9V off a pick up? As tall an order as that is, it would be wonderful to have.

[Duq]

On 11/1/2021 at 1:11 PM, supertruper1988 said:

I am very certain that PWN will kill original LEGO 9V train motors. There have been many reports going back to the late 90's and early 2000's of guys trying to control trains with the yellow Mindstorms and the PWM that is used by that system was killing the motors.

Personal experience: I've had commuting trains and trams running for days on end at shows, controlled by RCX bricks. Never lost a motor so far. I know that's anecdotal and not solid proof but I just thought I'd throw it out there...

[legoboy3998]

7 hours ago, XG BC said:

if the motor is just a regular brushed dc motor which i think it is yes ofcourse it will be backwards compatible. if it is dcc then not but michael has said that he wants to release non dcc variants first so yes it will be backwards compatible

I think a clarification between DC and DCC is needed at this point in the discussion.

DC (Direct Current) control is the simplest form of motor control.  In simple terms, in DC control, one lead from the power pack is connected to each rail.  For the motor to go foreword, the positive voltage is sent to, say the left rail, and negative to the right rail.  To reverse the motor, the positive and negative is reversed within the power pack.  Speed is effected simply my increasing or decreasing the voltage applied.   

In DCC (Digital Command Control), full DC voltage is applied to the track, through wires known as a "power bus", and remains constant throughout operation.  A Command Station takes commands from a DCC handheld controller, converts the commands to digital signals that are sent through the "power bus", through the rails, and to the pickups of the locomotive.  From the power pickups, the commands are sent through a DCC "Decoder" in the locomotive that interprets the commands and tells the motor, lights, sound, etc. and tells the various outputs how to operate.

In legacy LGEO 9v motors, the power pickups on the locomotive are directly connected to the motor.  This works for DC control, but does not work for DCC.  In DCC, The power pickups need to be isolated from the motor, in order for power to be routed through the "Decoder"  FX Bricks' plan to have their motor come with the power pickups separate from the motor with a supplied "jumper" to connect tem directly, is the simplest way to make the motor pack the most versatile for both straight DC control, and DCC users.  In my opinion, it would be a waste of time , money, and resources for FX Bricks to develop a LEGO specific DCC system.  There are plenty of them out there for the user's to choose from  The only real components that would be useful, besides the new motor, would be a "DCC Friendly Wiring harness" with a connector for the new motor, and JST connectors for speakers and lights, and a track connector with no connector on the "power pack end" for easy connection to the screw terminals of commercially available DCC Command Stations.

Sal
WFB, WI

[Toastie]

1 hour ago, Duq said:

Never lost a motor so far.

It's because RCX' are smart. Really smart.

Best
Thorsten

[zephyr1934]

22 hours ago, michaelgale said:

Might as well confirm the form factor with a teaser image! ...

What a beauty!

Is there any room to put a pin hole in the middle for a fake wheel on a 3 axle truck? Perhaps with just a little vertical offset so that the motor with fake wheels can handle R40 curves (I'm not meaning to sound ungrateful as you resurrect what was thought to be an extinct species, rather, with all of the other improvements you are making just suggesting additional QOL changes in case they might be easy to include). In any event, I THINK the lego motor sides require a small indent somewhere between the wheels.

 

20 hours ago, michaelgale said:

I guess, that's sort of coming soon...read the conclusion of my latest BrickNerd article...

https://bricknerd.com/home/this-old-track-maintaining-and-restoring-your-metal-9v-track-11-2-21

 

Amazing work (on the track, obviously haven't seen the motor post yet). Please include links to these or copy the content over to the FXTrack pages. I'm sure many of us will go looking for this valuable information in a year or two and not remember where to find it.

[XG BC]

ss soon as this thing is available at jb spielwaren i am going to be like shut up and take my money! will be intrigued by the dcc options aswell for finer controll and additional features.

[dtomsen]

@michaelgale Any plans for making your new curves accessible in Stud.io as custom files?

I know you have made them accessible for LDrew already but those have no connections points with their studs (or anything else) when importing them into Stud.io.

Edited November 21, 2021 by dtomsen

[cptkent]

Hi Michael.

Any chance of an update on your roadmap? I’m wondering if we will see R120 next year?

[Ashi Valkoinen]

@michaelgale May I ask about the P40L and P40R switches? FX website say coming in 2021, is it still possible to happen? I would like to inquire about the 1/5 and 1/10 tracks (3.2 studs, 1.6 studs), will be these available after a while?

[kieran]

Thanks so much for working on this. Can’t wait for new 9v motors 

[michaelgale]

Hi guys!  Some of your questions might be answered by this quick preview video showing some of the new track elements including the amazing P40 switch:

@dtomsen I'm not very familiar enough with Stud.io to make custom elements for it.  I'm hoping there are some helpful fans more knowledgable than us to create them! ;)  I presume our LDraw files are a good starting point.

@Ashi Valkoinen The good news is that the P40R/L switches are tooled and we're performing engineering test and evaluation.  The next phase of development involves sequencing and documenting the assembly process for our manufacturers.  As you know, each switch consists of 36x parts and needs to be assembled in a particular sequence, with proper tools, and can be easily tested after assembly.  Also, the S1.6 and S3.2 straights are tooled and are good to go for production.  As are the R56, R64P and R104 curves.  The challenge is scheduling manufacturing time and staging production so that we can receive, inspect, package and then distribute these products.  There's a lot of work behind the scenes and we're constantly having to adapt to challenges such as COVID (obviously) and the disruption to global logistics and Chinese manufacturing.

@kieran The motor's are still coming along!  Lots of work to do to, but we have a pretty good design concept that we're going start building engineering prototypes around.  

Sorry we can't get there faster--we're doing the best we can!

 

[Ashi Valkoinen]

53 minutes ago, michaelgale said:

 

@Ashi Valkoinen The good news is that the P40R/L switches are tooled and we're performing engineering test and evaluation.  The next phase of development involves sequencing and documenting the assembly process for our manufacturers.  As you know, each switch consists of 36x parts and needs to be assembled in a particular sequence, with proper tools, and can be easily tested after assembly.  Also, the S1.6 and S3.2 straights are tooled and are good to go for production.  As are the R56, R64P and R104 curves.  The challenge is scheduling manufacturing time and staging production so that we can receive, inspect, package and then distribute these products.  There's a lot of work behind the scenes and we're constantly having to adapt to challenges such as COVID (obviously) and the disruption to global logistics and Chinese manufacturing.

These are very, very good news! I can't wait to make the first orders for these! Thank you for that good work!

[Vilhelm22]

@michaelgale Everything in the video  looks truly amazing!  I have some H0 model trains, and those P40 switches are definitely of a proper model railway standard!  Also good to see power connections in the works as well - they definitely weren’t something I had previously thought about.  I can’t wait to see it all come together in the next year or so - is that realistic for the controller, power connectors, and motor?

[zephyr1934]

Wow!

 

21 hours ago, michaelgale said:

Sorry we can't get there faster--we're doing the best we can!

We've waited 16 years since lego ended 9v, a little longer is hardly noticeable. It is nice to be able to savor each new element.