Fx Bricks (Michael Gale) announces Fx Track system

[legotownlinz]

1 hour ago, michaelgale said:

2. Voltage Selection - it is important for this control to look forwards as well as backwards--that it why it has 12V available--to support new high performance motor products.  Accidental selection of 12V mode for legacy 9V motor products is highly unlikely to do any damage--almost all motors are capable of operating beyond their "rated" voltage.  As was mentioned, it simply increases heat dissipation and there is protection for thermal overload.  Besides, its unlikely that anyone is running their 9V motors at full power continuously and any train running at 12V full power will likely not stay on the track for very long!

 

1 hour ago, michaelgale said:

5. Auto/Low mode - These are not finalized.  These labels refer to PWM motor control modes.  Auto is a the default quiet high frequency PWM mode.  Low mode is very low frequency PWM for older and/or sticky/crusty/bulky motors!  Sometimes these older motors do not operate very well with high frequency PWM and require a bit of "boost" with longer durations of motor current in the PWM duty cycle.  We're not sure if we're going to retain these labels and modes but we're still testing.

 

Voltage and low mode are set only once and will not change during normal operation. The buttons shouldn't be placed at the front but at the bottom for easy usage and to prevent accidential changes. The controller might be used by children, so it's better to hide functions they don't understand.

 

1 hour ago, michaelgale said:

6. Blue connectors are fixed voltage outputs to power up accessories or "slave" speed controllers (half width).  The orange output is the variable voltage/speed control output.

No blue please. Use white or gray instead.

[M_slug357]

1 hour ago, legotownlinz said:

No blue please. Use white or gray instead.

Whats wrong with blue? I'd say white&gray are a tad to homogeneous to the controller's color mock-up. Definitely shouldn't use red&green for the sake of any colorblind friends out there.

Also, while I understand the desire for child-friendly products, from what I've read so far kids aren't the intended target market...

[legotownlinz]

38 minutes ago, M_slug357 said:

Whats wrong with blue?

It doesn't blend well with the other colors used. Makes it look like the inside of a Lego product. 

[michaelgale]

The location of buttons and controls to the front panel is strictly a question of economics.  They are all soldered to a PCB behind the panel.  Putting controls in other locations means additional PCBs, wiring harnesses, bulkhead connectors, etc.  This almost doubles the cost due to the additional labour and steps during manufacturing.  

A purpose of a front panel is for control and reporting status.  Moving voltage selection elsewhere makes things more confusing and less clear--the operator would not have the same level of clarity of operational status. Each of the controls shown are of equal relative importance and quite frankly there's not a lot of controls and plenty of room on the panel for a neat and tidy layout.

 

What's wrong with blue?  Its a lovely colour! :)  

Seriously, the colours have meaning and our new power system is going to use a "colour code" for different functions, e.g. outputs, lighting, motors, digital, sensors, etc. More details will be released in future, but rest assured there is a systematic approach to our design choices--it's all part of a "System" (sounds familiar doesn't it?)  :)

 

[davidzq]

If the buttons cannot be moved, how about replacing them with a sliding toggle switch. This would be less likely to be accidentally pressed, and gives the impression that these are settings to be chosen before operation, not something to be changed often or on the fly.

 

I'm also not a fan of a two button approach for such options, I would prefer a single button/switch that toggles between them (with two indicator lights). The two button approach just seems like wasted space. The exception to this is the direction control, I am fine with either option for that.

 

 

An addition I feel would be helpful would be some switched/selectable outputs, controlled by additional buttons, or perhaps by the direction buttons. This would be a great addition for trackside structures/signals, or for isolated sections of track (though that would be better served by more complex means).

But with how well thought out the entire FX catalog has been thus far, I would assume you already have something planned for things like this.

You mentioned "slave (half width) speed controllers". I'm guessing this means this controller has some modular expansion planned? Though I don't see any connection points along the edge of the controller to join multiple together.

 

 

[legoboy3998]

@michaelgale Since you are talking about features, and looking at feedback.  One of the big train shows my LUG does asks layouts if they have controls on the outside of the layout for kids to operate trains.  Some of our members have been interested in trying to incorporate this with the new Powered UP system.  The big concern is being able to limit the max voltage the system will send to the motor to limit the max speed.  If there would be a way to include some way to set a max voltage limit, that would be useful.  Since you mentioned "slave" controllers, This could maybe be done by having some way of connecting the "mother" and "slave" controllers so that the max speed can be set on the "mother" controller, inside the layout, (the speed slider might suffice for this) and the "Slave" controller, on the outside of the layout that can only utilize the max voltage that the "mother" controller is set to.  Just something to keep in mind if possible.

Sal
WFB, WI

[legotownlinz]

One general remark regarding the controller: To my understanding, it does exactly the same as any other controller for analog H0 railroads. It is the component that is least urgently need for a Lego 9V system because any H0 product can be used. Wouldn't it be better to focus on other components first?

[Jeffinslaw]

One thing people seem to miss is that these speed regulators can also be used by the GBC community. I'm not in that community but they buy up the old 9V style speed regulators in droves.

[michaelgale]

@legotownlinz This controller is called the "Power Station".  This is because it is not only a speed controller but a power source for other speed controllers (half-width add-on modules) and accessories.  Telling folks to use a commercial model train controller simply doesn't work for many LEGO fans.  Its not a plug-and-play solution which fits into the LEGO system.  

The development of the Power Station does not pre-empt the development of other essential components, e.g. motor bogie, track feeders, etc.  The development of all these items is very much a combined engineering effort since there are elements shared between them--notably the new 9V-style conductive stud connectors--an element which will be used by our entire system.  Development of the motor bogie is going to require a decent power speed controller and connecting accessories for the track--therefore, the time spent on developing the Power Station is both a useful and necessary.

The Power Station also addresses two key shortcomings of the LEGO speed regulator:

1. POWER - One of the key issues with the legacy LEGO 9V speed regulator was its very limited output power.  The Power Station delivers 30W continuous (45W peak) power with very high efficiency (>85%).  The LEGO controller uses a linear voltage regulator with less than 1A current delivery and would often be bounded by thermally restricted performance due to the inherent inefficiency of linear regulators.

2. SPEED RANGE - The legacy LEGO 9V speed regulator would only permit 7x discrete speed settings in each direction.  It is all but impossible to achieve smooth and realistic train operation with this limitation.  The Power Station has a continuously variable and precise speed control over then entire range from 0 to full speed.  Furthermore, its ability to select peak voltage and PWM frequency makes it possible to tune performance even more.  

I'm currently road testing some prototypes of the Power Station in the lab and I intend to make a quick video showcasing its performance and features.  This should hopefully convince folks that it is worth waiting for and will be another necessary piece in the puzzle for offering LEGO train fans an entirely new level of performance missing for so long.

 

[SD100]

While I was skeptical in the beginning of michealgale's claims, I am beyond impressed with the amount of products he is now bringing to sale. I appreciate that this is a massive undertaking to produce all of these different components for what is really a niche market. At this point, anything directly compatible to L gauge track is much better than a half baked aftermarket solution, I don't want kids messing with soldered/shrink wrapped wire connections on a layout that's not permanently attached to anything all the time. And if his motors eventually are taking more power, then I want a controller that will also power them at that level, without bastardizing multiple interfaces. Today I just made my first investment in the FX Bricks system, but I'm looking forward to making many more. I'm invested now.

SD

[legotownlinz]

10 hours ago, Jeffinslaw said:

One thing people seem to miss is that these speed regulators can also be used by the GBC community. I'm not in that community but they buy up the old 9V style speed regulators in droves.

Why don't they use any other power supply?

[McWaffel]

23 minutes ago, legotownlinz said:

Why don't they use any other power supply?

Not everybody wants to solder connections permanently. The beauty of the LEGO system is you can just use the power connectors like bricks and stick them on the rails. Done. Easy, simple, elegant. 
 

Edited October 30, 2021 by McWaffel

[zephyr1934]

On 10/28/2021 at 9:34 PM, legoboy3998 said:

The big concern is being able to limit the max voltage the system will send to the motor to limit the max speed.  If there would be a way to include some way to set a max voltage limit, that would be useful. 

 

20 hours ago, legotownlinz said:

One general remark regarding the controller: To my understanding, it does exactly the same as any other controller for analog H0 railroads. It is the component that is least urgently need for a Lego 9V system because any H0 product can be used.

This almost seems like a question and answer (]I've also had that question but never pursued it enough to find an answer). I suspect building in a "max voltage" is probably too specific for the base FX controller. Using an HO or even N controller to limit the voltage at a show might be an easy solution. Alternatively, I would think that it would be possible to build an external voltage limiter between the controller and the track. Though knowing Michael and his FXBricks, I bet somewhere in his plans there's a controller with a programmable speed profile (if not for this controller a future one).

[ivanlan9]

I use a (now very old--at least 25 years) HO MRC powerpack for my 9v trains.  It works very well for providing sufficient power to the 9v motors; I've had 4 of them on the track at one time (2 2-motor locomotives).  It also provides some basic sounds, although the choices are limited to "steam" and "diesel."  No electric.  And the sounds are fun, but not realistic.

Since I hate running trains too fast, I never came close to either exceeding 9v or overheating the motors.  I cut the wires for the power leads and soldered screw clips on them.  That let me easily attach them to the track and just as easily screw the leads to the power pack.

Since the layout is only a single block, without sections or polarity controls, this has worked fine.  But it's not sophisticated.

[JochemvdMeulen]

If I remember correctly DCC was also a part of the Fx Track System.

So does this power station also support DCC?

Or wil there be a separate DCC power station? or are the plans for DCC shelved?

[JaBaCaDaBra]

23 hours ago, legotownlinz said:

Why don't they use any other power supply?

Because GBC rules prohibits use of any "foreign" parts except the balls.

[Black Knight]

36 minutes ago, JaBaCaDaBra said:

Because GBC rules prohibits use of any "foreign" parts except the balls.

Are you sure about that? The FAQ explicitly mentions third party power supplies. I'd rather guess that this is more a convenience and/or lack-of-know-how question -- as is with 9V trains.

[JaBaCaDaBra]

1 hour ago, Black Knight said:

Are you sure about that? The FAQ explicitly mentions third party power supplies. I'd rather guess that this is more a convenience and/or lack-of-know-how question -- as is with 9V trains.

Maybe on a local show
But at the World Championship you will be disqualified and taken out.

[michaelgale]

More details regarding the Power Station can be found on a video we made on YouTube:

 

Re DCC:  The Power Station is not DCC--it is variable voltage DC controller (strictly speaking its actually PWM).  DCC is in the roadmap--but well into the future.  We need to walk before we can run!

 

[XG BC]

5 hours ago, michaelgale said:

More details regarding the Power Station can be found on a video we made on YouTube:

 

Re DCC:  The Power Station is not DCC--it is variable voltage DC controller (strictly speaking its actually PWM).  DCC is in the roadmap--but well into the future.  We need to walk before we can run!

 

do we though? to quote iron man/tony stark sometimes you gotta run before you can walk! no just kidding i think starting with dc control is the better move here considering that you have yet to bring the motor to the market. I would only bring the dcc controller if you release a motor to pair it with everything else just doesnt make sense from a business perspective.

[cptkent]

DCC and every other fancy thing is great.

But I think such a power supply, and a simple motor, would be the backbone of any L-gauge ‘system’. Track-motor-controller, for everyone who just wants to get started running trains.

Great stuff Fx team.

[supertruper1988]

9 hours ago, michaelgale said:

*snip

it is variable voltage DC controller (strictly speaking its actually PWM)

I am very certain that PWN will kill original LEGO 9V train motors. There have been many reports going back to the late 90's and early 2000's of guys trying to control trains with the yellow Mindstorms and the PWM that is used by that system was killing the motors.

Modern PF/PUP motors have a capacitor in the motor to smooth out Pulse Width Modulation to soften the effects on the motor but anyone attempting to use this power station with original LEGO motors will have a great risk of killing very valuable motors. 

Edited November 1, 2021 by supertruper1988

[michaelgale]

1 hour ago, supertruper1988 said:

I am very certain that PWN will kill original LEGO 9V train motors. There have been many reports going back to the late 90's and early 2000's of guys trying to control trains with the yellow Mindstorms and the PWM that is used by that system was killing the motors.

Modern PF/PUP motors have a capacitor in the motor to smooth out Pulse Width Modulation to soften the effects on the motor but anyone attempting to use this power station with original LEGO motors will have a great risk of killing very valuable motors. 

A blanket statement that PWM kills motors is simply not true.  This is a big topic, suffice to say, almost all modern motor speed control systems use PWM due to its efficiency and performance.

Having said that, you can have issues with PWM if the PWM frequency is not matched to the motor type.  There are many brushed DC motor architectures including cored, coreless, different number of poles, etc. In general:

1. Low Freq (<200 Hz) - best suited to large motors but suitable for most

2. Med Freq (200 - 1000 Hz) - suitable for most small motors

3. High Freq (1 - 15 kHz) - suitable for most small motors, but will require filter capacitor for EMI reduction and brush/commutator sparking

4. Very High Freq (>15 kHz) - "whisper" quiet PWM suitable for many motors, but especially required for coreless motors

There are several mechanisms of "killing" a motor, but the two most common are (both can happen with PWM and pure DC):

1. Thermal Overload - excess current in the motor windings can cause the insulating coating on the motor winding wiring to break down and short circuit to adjacent windings. This has a domino effect whereby successive breakdown increases heat which increases breakdown, etc.  LEGO motors have a thermistor to limit heating effects and therefore this is rarely an issue.

2. Commutator/Brush Oxidation - Brushed motors use carbon brushes which rub against a copper commutator to deliver energy to the rotor windings.  As the rotor turns, it switches contact between the different windings (or "poles") in the rotor. During this switching interval there is an instantaneous change in power flow across the commutator gap.  This discontinuous switching interval results in sparking between the brush and commutator.  Over time, this sparking action can cause a build up of oxidization/contamination on the brushes to the point whereby they no longer conduct electricity.  This seems like the motor is dead.  However, it is often possible to fix the motor by disassembling the motor and carefully cleaning/refurbishing the brushes/commutators.  

Since PWM uses voltage waveforms which apply full voltage during the ON cycle (and no voltage during the OFF interval), the sparking action can be more intense, leading to premature brush oxidation.  Almost all modern commercial motors (like LEGO PF/PU, model trains, etc.) put a capacitor across the motor terminals.  This serves two purposes:

1. EMI reduction - the primary goal of the capacitor is to reduce ElectroMagnetic Interference (EMI).  Sparking causes radiated EM noise/disturbances which can effect other electronics near the motor.  Consumer electronics goods need to achieve the CE mark / FCC certification to be legally be sold in the EU / USA.  These certifications include a maximum EMI limit.  That is why almost all motor based consumer electronics products will have some form of capacitor/EMI snubber network at the motor terminals to supress EMI to within legal limits.

2. Spark Reduction - this is effectively the same as EMI reduction, since it is the sparking which causes the EMI.  However, the sparking action shortens the life of the motor brushes and therefore reducing these effects is beneficial.

 

The Fx Bricks Power Station output driver circuit includes a "snubber" network which can reduce the sparking effects of "unprotected" motors (i.e. motors without capacitor filters).  Its always better and more effective to have this capacitor at the motor terminals, but anything helps.  The Power Station also uses a PWM mode called "braking" (i.e. it does NOT let the motor coast during OFF intervals).  This reduces sparking and absorbs accumulated current in the motor windings--this reduces power dissipation in the motor and prolongs the brush life.  The trade off is that it increases power dissipation in the Power Station driver circuit.  However, this circuit is more than capable of handling this excess power dissipation and the effect is quite small in comparison to the overall power load. 

I have used PWM based motor control with LEGO 9V and PF motors for many years without issue.  Today's modern consumer electronics with motor control almost always use PWM based speed control.  Its benefits of efficiency, precise speed control and reduced power dissipation in the motor far outweigh any perceived downsides.

Blanket statements of X causes Y without explanation or evidence simply do not help.  I took the time to write this long explanation as an educational benefit to the community to help understand these issues and to remove any anxieties about using PWM to control motor speed.

Edited November 1, 2021 by michaelgale

[M_slug357]

@michaelgale thanks for taking the time to really break it down for us!

Regarding the dcc bit— does this mean that further on down the line you intend to release a motor & controller that are dcc ready/ equipped?

[zephyr1934]

1 hour ago, michaelgale said:

Blanket statements of X causes Y without explanation or evidence simply do not help.  I took the time to write this long explanation as an educational benefit to the community to help understand these issues and to remove any anxieties about using PWM to control motor speed.

Hi Michael,

 this is a great passage you wrote, and hopefully you will keep it as part of an FAQ when the power station comes to market. Long ago I think I quickly killed a couple of 9v train motors with the RCX brick, which presumably has a much simpler PWM that is not appropriate for the 9v train motors (which in turn, presumably the 9v train motor development in the early 90's predates the wide use of PWM voltage control). While your note implies that you used the stock 9v motors throughout R+D with no ill effects to the motors, you might want to highlight that point and explicitly say it somewhere prominent.

 As a knob when it comes to motor electronics, I wonder if there would be any benefit to putting a capacitor in parallel to the motor, e.g., using the 9v motor output? Or does most of the benefit come from placing the capacitor serial with the motor? If there is benefit from a parallel connection, how difficult would it be to make a non-corded 9v plug that has a capacitor across the terminals to retrofit old 9v motors?